Alabama can prosecute those who help women travel for abortions, state’s AG says

HARK! · Sep 23, 2023

NxNW said:
But it didn't apply where abortion was concerned. Fortunately, fewer of our tax dollars are longer being used to promote religion.

Stalin would agree.

"By May, 1st, 1937, there should not be one single church left within the borders of Soviet Russia, and the idea of God will have been banished from the Soviet Union as a remnant of the Middle Ages, which has been used for the purpose of oppressing the working classes." -- Joseph Stalin

HARK! · Sep 23, 2023

NxNW said:
He was all over TV, all over the news, everywhere. My grandmother had his books on the shelf. You must not have been paying attention!

I ignored him.

I suppose that we can be thankful that she didn't abort your cell blob donor.

NxNW said:
The views espoused in his magazine were based on the Bible.

His magazine is not the Bible.

Hans Blaster · Sep 23, 2023

HARK! said:
Read on:

(c) Engaging in Illicit Sexual Conduct in Foreign Places.—
Any United States citizen or alien admitted for permanent residence who travels in foreign commerce or resides, either temporarily or permanently, in a foreign country, and engages in any illicit sexual conduct with another person shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

18 U.S. Code § 2423 - Transportation of minors

www.law.cornell.edu

Now if we have a law that says that we can't have sex with children anywhere; because it is illegal for our residents; how can one justify residents murdering children elsewhere?

18 USC 2423 is *clearly* about sexual activities relating to minors. The definitions given in that section make it clear:

(f) Definition.—As used in this section, the term “illicit sexual conduct” means—
(1)
a sexual act (as defined in section 2246) with a person under 18 years of age that would be in violation of chapter 109A if the sexual act occurred in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States;

(2)
any commercial sex act (as defined in section 1591) with a person under 18 years of age; or

(3)
production of child pornography (as defined in section 2256(8)).

Abortion, even involving minors, is not illicit sexual conduct as defined in this section and therefore this section has zero (0) relevance to the Alabama law.

HARK! · Sep 23, 2023

Hans Blaster said:
18 USC 2423 is *clearly* about sexual activities relating to minors. The definitions given in that section make it clear:

And?

Hans Blaster said:
Abortion, even involving minors, is not illicit sexual conduct as defined in this section and therefore this section has zero (0) relevance to the Alabama law.

Abortion is illegal in Alabama; even though it is legal in some other states.

Having sex with minors is illegal in the U.S.; even though it is legal in some other countries.

I have no difficulty understanding the relevance.

Pommer · Sep 23, 2023

BPPLEE said:
22 “If men 4fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that 5she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall spay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 teye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Read verse 23. It is a capital offense if there is harm., the death penalty if the fetus dies. This says nothing about a soul either

NxNW said:
Harm refers to the woman.

BPPLEE said:
LOL

Odd exchange.

HARK! · Sep 23, 2023

Pommer said:
Odd exchange.

I've laughed at ridiculous conclusions. It's really not uncommon.

ToddNotTodd · Sep 23, 2023

HARK! said:
Stalin would agree.

"By May, 1st, 1937, there should not be one single church left within the borders of Soviet Russia, and the idea of God will have been banished from the Soviet Union as a remnant of the Middle Ages, which has been used for the purpose of oppressing the working classes." -- Joseph Stalin

Ad hominem fallacies are ineffective when they are used on anyone with even a modicum of critical thinking skills.

Hans Blaster · Sep 23, 2023

HARK! said:
And?

Abortion is illegal in Alabama; even though it is legal in some other states.

Having sex with minors is illegal in the U.S.; even though it is legal in some other countries.

I have no difficulty understanding the relevance.

I'm not surprised you fail to grasp my point. You (and others) have been arguing that section 2423 applies to the Alabama case. I think the definition section shows clearly why it doesn't. So let's compare the two:

Alabama's claim is that they can prosecute people for going to other states to do things that are illegal in Alabama but not in the other state.

How is section 2423 different?

1. It is about something (sex with minors, and related) which is illegal throughout the US and many (all?) of the crimes covered by it are also Federal crimes. Many of these acts are at least technically illegal in the other nations, even if they are not effectively enforced.
2. It covers actions taken outside the jurisdiction of the US (including the reach of states through things like extradition and the "full faith and credit" clause.
3. It is positive law. It is specifically about one topic, sex with minors, and not a general statute on US citizens doing things.

If the US wanted to have a law prohibiting crossing state lines for the purpose of having an abortion, it could. There is a law like that to prohibiting taking minors across state lines for "immoral acts" even when those acts are legal in the other state. (It is a federal crime to take your 16-year-old girlfriend to a state where the marriage age is only 16 w/o parental consent.) This is *only* a crime because the US Congress has explicitly passed a law to make it a crime. Otherwise it would not be. (Remember the *federal* government is given the power to regulate interstate commerce and states are prohibitted from placing barriers like tariffs to it by the US Constitution.)

In short, if you want a law to prohibit interstate travel for abortion convince Congress to pass one. 18 USC 2423 ain't it.

NxNW · Sep 23, 2023

HARK! said:
Just so you know, Graham doesn't speak for all Christians on many points. In fact on some points he speaks for only a tiny fraction of Christians, just like Stalin doesn't speak for all Atheists on all points.

That's because atheists don't really have a spokesperson. But Graham was certainly one of the first that came to mind for nonCatholic Christians.

NxNW · Sep 23, 2023

HARK! said:
Stalin would agree.

"By May, 1st, 1937, there should not be one single church left within the borders of Soviet Russia, and the idea of God will have been banished from the Soviet Union as a remnant of the Middle Ages, which has been used for the purpose of oppressing the working classes." -- Joseph Stalin

Agree with what? That quote is irrelevant to my reply.

NxNW · Sep 23, 2023

HARK! said:
I suppose that we can be thankful that she didn't abort your cell blob donor.

You'd certainly be missing out on my quality content.

NxNW · Sep 23, 2023

Pommer said:
Odd exchange.

I agree; I wouldn't laugh about harming women.

rturner76 · Sep 25, 2023

HARK! said:
Did you even read the title of the thread, let alone the article?

I read the title but not the article. In the article did the effectively prove that one can go to a state where an action is legal then be prosecuted for a crime in a state that is illegal. If so, how did the article prove this is a constitutionally legal prosecution?

hedrick · Sep 25, 2023

The constitution says what the Supreme Court says it does. I’m guessing some states think it’s worth running this by the Court.

KCfromNC · Sep 26, 2023

HARK! said:
Now if we have a law that says that we can't have sex with children anywhere; because it is illegal for our residents; how can one justify residents murdering children elsewhere?

Pretty sure there are also laws against murdering children on the books. Which poster are you talking about here who is advocating for repealing those laws?

Sounds pretty outlandish, but if someone actually said that I guess it is worth discussing. Maybe you could quote the post you're referencing here.

essentialsaltes · Oct 25, 2023

NxNW said:
What the Contradiction of Slavery Tells Us About Abortion Rights

Alabama and Texas join Idaho in targeting the right to travel.

More Texas counties are trying to prevent people from using specific roads to get an abortion

Lubbock County is the largest of four Texas counties that have now adopted a version of the measure, which would be enforced through lawsuits filed by private citizens against people who help women obtain abortions.

essentialsaltes · Nov 11, 2023

Alabama can't prosecute people who help women leave the state for abortions, Justice Department says (in a statement commenting on lawsuits)

The Justice Department filed a statement of its position in consolidated lawsuits against Alabama Attorney General Steve Marshall, arguing that such prosecutions would be unconstitutional. The lawsuits, filed by an abortion fund and former providers, seek a court ruling clarifying the state can’t use conspiracy statutes to prosecute people who help Alabama women travel elsewhere to obtain an abortion. Marshall has not prosecuted anyone for providing such assistance, but he has made statements saying that his office would “look at” groups that provide abortion help.

The Justice Department argued in the filing that the U.S. Constitution protects the right to travel. The department said that just as Marshall cannot stop women from crossing state lines to obtain a legal abortion, "neither can he seek to achieve the same result by threatening to prosecute anyone who assists that individual in their travel."

essentialsaltes · May 7, 2024

essentialsaltes said:
Alabama can't prosecute people who help women leave the state for abortions, Justice Department says (in a statement commenting on lawsuits)

Alabama can't prosecute those who help women travel for abortions, federal judge says

A federal judge smacked down a series of threats by Alabama’s Republican attorney general to prosecute groups that help women obtain out-of-state abortions, wading into a debate over access to the procedure that has lingered since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade two years ago.

The plaintiffs, including a group called the Yellowhammer Fund that helps women obtain out-of-state abortions, sued Alabama Attorney General Steve Marshall after he suggested prosecution might be possible for groups that “aid and abet abortions,” including by helping women travel out of state.

“The right to interstate travel is one of our most fundamental constitutional rights,” US District Judge Myron Thompson wrote in a preliminary ruling late Monday.

“Alabama can no more restrict people from going to, say, California to engage in what is lawful there than California can restrict people from coming to Alabama to do what is lawful here,” Thompson wrote. [e.g. sex with a consenting 16-year-old]

BPPLEE · May 7, 2024

essentialsaltes said:
Alabama can't prosecute those who help women travel for abortions, federal judge says

A federal judge smacked down a series of threats by Alabama’s Republican attorney general to prosecute groups that help women obtain out-of-state abortions, wading into a debate over access to the procedure that has lingered since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade two years ago.

The plaintiffs, including a group called the Yellowhammer Fund that helps women obtain out-of-state abortions, sued Alabama Attorney General Steve Marshall after he suggested prosecution might be possible for groups that “aid and abet abortions,” including by helping women travel out of state.

“The right to interstate travel is one of our most fundamental constitutional rights,” US District Judge Myron Thompson wrote in a preliminary ruling late Monday.

“Alabama can no more restrict people from going to, say, California to engage in what is lawful there than California can restrict people from coming to Alabama to do what is lawful here,” Thompson wrote. [e.g. sex with a consenting 16-year-old]

I always liked Thompson.

rjs330 · May 7, 2024

essentialsaltes said:
Alabama can't prosecute those who help women travel for abortions, federal judge says

A federal judge smacked down a series of threats by Alabama’s Republican attorney general to prosecute groups that help women obtain out-of-state abortions, wading into a debate over access to the procedure that has lingered since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade two years ago.

The plaintiffs, including a group called the Yellowhammer Fund that helps women obtain out-of-state abortions, sued Alabama Attorney General Steve Marshall after he suggested prosecution might be possible for groups that “aid and abet abortions,” including by helping women travel out of state.

“The right to interstate travel is one of our most fundamental constitutional rights,” US District Judge Myron Thompson wrote in a preliminary ruling late Monday.

“Alabama can no more restrict people from going to, say, California to engage in what is lawful there than California can restrict people from coming to Alabama to do what is lawful here,” Thompson wrote. [e.g. sex with a consenting 16-year-old]

I agree with this ruling.

Alabama can prosecute those who help women travel for abortions, state’s AG says

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What the Contradiction of Slavery Tells Us About Abortion Rights​

More Texas counties are trying to prevent people from using specific roads to get an abortion​

Fact-Based Lifeform

Alabama can't prosecute people who help women leave the state for abortions, Justice Department says (in a statement commenting on lawsuits)​

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Alabama can't prosecute people who help women leave the state for abortions, Justice Department says (in a statement commenting on lawsuits)​

Alabama can't prosecute those who help women travel for abortions, federal judge says​

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Alabama can't prosecute those who help women travel for abortions, federal judge says​

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Alabama can't prosecute those who help women travel for abortions, federal judge says​

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