God Disqualified Christians From Participating in the Mosaic Law Covenant

HIM · Sep 25, 2023

GDL said:
I and scores of other students, teachers, scholars of the Text disagree with you. So does our beloved Text. All of God's major covenants with men have been labeled similarly for ease of discussion - e.g. Adamic or Edenic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic. The Mosaic Covenant is very simply put, a Law Covenant consisting of what is commonly called the Mosaic Law based upon the Text calling it the Law of Moses. Thus the Mosaic Law Covenant is simply reasoning being applied.

Need I go back to the old and tired argument of "Trinity" not being in the Text?

And why did you not quote all of my post? This is a pretty common practice of yours BTW. Did you not care for the English lesson? What do you think all that "Book of..." terminology refers to - the same Book or many Books? No reasoned response?

Your simplistic refusals should probably just be met with the youthful, "it is too" - it is not - it is too - IS NOT - IS TOO...

So the fact you know it isn’t called the mosaic law covenant and you continue to call it that with the scores of others should be a red flag for you. Scores of others were making their own philosophy in Jesus’ time also and he rebuked them for it. And I am very good at sarcasm also. And can be just as pompous as the next fellow. Why not just forego that and be civil?

Doran · Sep 25, 2023

GDL, I revised my Law of Liberty syllogism in 139. And I decided that since I state the syllogistic argument in the negative (stating what the Law of Liberty isn't), I started my argument from the perspective of Law rather than Truth. I also added two more premises.

And you sabbath-keepers should learn a lesson from this. I purposely titled the argument in the NEGATIVE for a reason. Since I state what the Law of Liberty isn't, then this logically presupposes that I know what it actually IS. And so I do state what it clearly in the argument. Hint, hint, hint. So when you folks tell us what the Old Covenant ISN'T how come you're so slow to tell us in definite, unequivocal terms what it IS.

SabbathBlessings · Sep 25, 2023

Doran said:
GDL, I revised my Law of Liberty syllogism in 139. And I decided that since I state the syllogistic argument in the negative (stating what the Law of Liberty isn't), I started my argument from the perspective of Law rather than Truth. I also added two more premises.

And you sabbath-keepers should learn a lesson from this. I purposely titled the argument in the NEGATIVE for a reason. Since I state what the Law of Liberty isn't, then this logically presupposes that I know what it actually IS. And so I do state what it clearly in the argument. Hint, hint, hint. So when you folks tell us what the Old Covenant ISN'T how come you're so slow to tell us in definite, unequivocal terms what it IS.

We could just follow what the Text says, which is what we are told to do Pro 30:5-6

This is a direct quote from the Ten Commandments which the original is in God's heavenly Temple Rev 11:19

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

It's called the law of liberty because one is no longer under the bondage of sin Rom 7:7, but free in Christ walking in His Spirit not being in rebellion to His holy law. Romans 8:4-8 but keeping through love and faith 1 John 5:3 Exo 20:6 John 14:15, Romans 3:31, Rev 14:12

HIM · Sep 25, 2023

Doran said:
Jer 31:31-32
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.
NIV

So...what covenant did God make with Israel after He led them out of Egypt? I assume this historic covenant, and its terms and conditions, is recorded in scripture, since it's spoken of so much? And chapter and verse, please.

His

HIM · Sep 25, 2023

Doran said:
GDL, I revised my Law of Liberty syllogism in 139. And I decided that since I state the syllogistic argument in the negative (stating what the Law of Liberty isn't), I started my argument from the perspective of Law rather than Truth. I also added two more premises.

And you sabbath-keepers should learn a lesson from this. I purposely titled the argument in the NEGATIVE for a reason. Since I state what the Law of Liberty isn't, then this logically presupposes that I know what it actually IS. And so I do state what it clearly in the argument. Hint, hint, hint. So when you folks tell us what the Old Covenant ISN'T how come you're so slow to tell us in definite, unequivocal terms what it IS.

Sabbath blessing said what it was numerous times. It is as God said. The Decalogue

Doran · Sep 25, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
Or we could just follow what the Text actually says, which is what we are told to do Pro 30:5-6

This is a direct quote from the Ten Commandments which the original is in God's heavenly Temple Rev 11:19

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

It's called the law of liberty because one is no longer under the bondage of sin Rom 7:7, but free in Christ walking in His Spirit not being in rebellion to His holy law. Romans 8:4-8 but keeping through love and faith 1 John 5:3 Exo 20:6 John 14:15, Romans 3:31, Rev 14:12

Doran · Sep 25, 2023

However, if you're saying that everyone is going to be judged by the Law of Moses (which you seem to be equating with the Law of Liberty), you again have two problems: The Law of Moses was given only to the Israelites, not to the rest of the world. So, if it's the Law of Moses (i.e. Law of Liberty) that's going to judge us (then Jesus didn't know what he was talking about when he clearly said HIS WORDS will be everyone's judge (Jn 12:48).

And "no one" (as in any believer, I presume?) is under the bondage of sin because Jesus said the TRUTH will set men free. BEFORE anyone "walked in His Spirit", he first had to believe the Gospel, therefore, he FIRST believed the TRUTH. Faith precedes "walking", just as justification precedes sanctification (walking). One only starts "walking" only after he believes the Truth.

Finally, the context of James says nothing about people being in bondage to sin. Not a thing! Another great job in eisegesis, though.

Doran · Sep 25, 2023

HIM said:
Sabbath blessing said what it was numerous times. It is as God said. The Decalogue

Where did God say his Ten was his covenant with Israel? You have chapter and verse?

Also, you're a careless reader: SB said that the covenant "includes" or "contains" the 10, clearly implying there was other content in the covenant. She never said the Decalogue IS the covenant. Big difference! So, do you believe the Ten is the covenant, or the Ten is merely contained in the covenant?

SabbathBlessings · Sep 25, 2023

Doran said:
However, if you're saying that everyone is going to be judged by the Law of Moses (which you seem to be equating with the Law of Liberty), you again have two problems: The Law of Moses was given only to the Israelites, not to the rest of the world. So, if it's the Law of Moses (i.e. Law of Liberty) that's going to judge us (then Jesus didn't know what he was talking about when he clearly said HIS WORDS will be everyone's judge (Jn 12:48).

And "no one" (as in any believer, I presume?) is under the bondage of sin because Jesus said the TRUTH will set men free. BEFORE anyone "walked in His Spirit", he first had to believe the Gospel, therefore, he FIRST believed the TRUTH. Faith precedes "walking", just as justification precedes sanctification (walking). One only starts "walking" only after he believes the Truth.

Finally, the context of James says nothing about people being in bondage to sin. Not a thing! Another great job in eisegesis, though.

The Ten Commandments is the law of God, personally written by God, personally spoken by God. In God's New Covenant- He wrote His laws to who?

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Same people, because Israel means so much more than "Jews" and we are grafted into God's Covenant promise made with Israel through our faith Gal 3:26-28

The Ten Commandments is His Word- spoken and written personally by God. There will be many believers in that great day who will say Lord Lord (believers) but it is those who do His will and that Jesus knows. Mat 7:21-23 We are known by Him through our obedience 1 John 2:3 because faith is more than just believing in, it's a call to action. Rev 22:14

Doran · Sep 25, 2023

GDL said:
Please explain this point.

Law doesn't always mean a command or injunction or imperative. In other words, the term isn't always used in the prescriptive sense. A law can be a principle, such as the Laws of Physics, or the Law of Gravity, or the Laws of Logic, or the "law of sin and death", etc.. The Gr. term "nomon", according to Strong, can be used figuratively, i.e. a principle. Which is how I see it being used. However, at the same time,sine everyone is commanded to believe the Gospel [truth], then I suppose it could be said that the Law of Liberty is used prescriptively.

GDL · Sep 25, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
Where in scripture does it say more than the Ten Commandments was written by the finger of God. Where in scripture does it say anything other than the Ten was placed inside the ark?

When did the 10 become part of a Torah Scroll? Where are the stones? If it wasn't for some verbal and written on other than stones revelation, we wouldn't even know of the 10. Do you think what was written on stones simply remained on stones and was not part of was written in the Book that became scrolls, that became books, that became digital?

Although I agree that the writing on stones by God was truly an amazing event and wouldn't we love to see those stone tablets, I disagree that it is eternally important, or why would God put His Son on the cross in order to be writing in minds and on hearts now?

IMO you need to move forward in time. Enjoy Saturdays as you choose to do. Don't drink alcohol and ignore Paul's admonition to Timothy to drink some wine to take care of his timid stomach. It's really all up to you. But it's not the Christian Faith and SDA is not the Remnant Church.

SabbathBlessings · Sep 25, 2023

GDL said:
When did the 10 become part of a Torah Scroll? Where are the stones? If it wasn't for some verbal and written on other than stones revelation, we wouldn't even know of the 10. Do you think what was written on stones simply remained on stones and was not part of was written in the Book that became scrolls, that became books, that became digital?

I assume since you didn't answer my questions or answered my question with a question- seems to be popular, that you don't have the answers.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. . .

What law is in heaven? Please show this through scripture, because we are told where there is no law, there is no transgression Romans 4:15. Sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4 Which law? Lucifer sinned in heaven meaning he broke the law but which law? What is the only law shown to be in heaven?

If Cain killed Abel and God said he sinned, how could that be unless he was given God's law, because without the law there is no transgression. We have a fair and just Father- He is not going to judge without giving us the standard we are to be judged by. James 2:10-12 Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 tells us, but many choose not to believe these verses. We have free will, but it's not going to change God's Word and His promise.

GDL said:
Although I agree that the writing on stones by God was truly an amazing event and wouldn't we love to see those stone tablets, I disagree that it is eternally important, or why would God put His Son on the cross in order to be writing in minds and on hearts now?

Your argument is not with me, Jesus does not want us to sin 1 John 2:1-6 Rom 7:7 and Jesus scarified His life so all of us can have a second chance, not so we can continue in sin, which makes His great sacrifice in vain. Hebrews 10:26-30

GDL said:
IMO you need to move forward in time. Enjoy Saturdays as you choose to do. Don't drink alcohol and ignore Paul's admonition to Timothy to drink some wine to take care of his timid stomach. It's really all up to you. But it's not the Christian Faith and SDA is not the Remnant Church.

Thank you, I do enjoy my Sabbaths. There is a special blessing God is trying to give His people that many simply miss out on Isa 58:13-14, Isa 56, Eze 20:12, Eze 20:20. I think Jesus knows who His remnant Church is and we are told it is those who keep the commandments of God and have faith in Jesus Rev 12:17 which makes the devil and his minions very unhappy and why you see the war against God's holy Sabbath commandment and all of God's holy law because there is someone who doesn't not want us to obey God and His commandments, but that certainly is not God or Jesus Exo 20:6 John 14:15, Mat 15:3-9, Mat 19:17-18 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 22:14.

GDL · Sep 25, 2023

HIM said:
So the fact you know it isn’t called the mosaic law covenant and you continue to call it that with the scores of others should be a red flag for you. Scores of others were making their own philosophy in Jesus’ time also and he rebuked them for it. And I am very good at sarcasm also. And can be just as pompous as the next fellow. Why not just forego that and be civil?

Well, no it shouldn't. I can walk among leagues of schooled students of the Word who will automatically and immediately understand and identify bodies of Scripture if I were to say the Mosaic Law Covenant, or the Mosaic Law, or the Mosaic Covenant. They would immediately know I was speaking of the Covenant God made with Moses and Israel after He freed them from Egypt and gave them the 10C and entire body of law, statutes, judgments to do. It's you who should be coming up to speed on this. Honestly, I've never encountered anyone who has trouble with the word "Mosaic" before.

My sarcasm is responsive in your case. Get past the tiring methods of ignoring posts that refute your positions and pretending like your all-inclusive "you're wrong" statements are meaningful argumentation. And get past your claims that it's only human pride talking when others may well know more than you. Then, maybe you'll see more civility coming your way.

If we have that out of the way, please just use a little reasoning and get past this opposition to the term "Mosaic". It's basic English that can replace the phrase "of Moses". Look at those "Book of" statements posted right from Scripture. Add the verses @Doran just added to the ones I posted. Do your own search and you'll find there are more verses to add.

Do you not see that, if those "Book of" verses are speaking of the same Book, then all of these phrases are referring to the same thing? Whether we call it the Mosaic Law, or the Mosaic Covenant, or the Mosaic Law Covenant, it's all ultimately the same thing. There's a fluidity to this and such fluid parallels is one of the ways the Word speaks.

Additionally, there is another approach to the same thing. It's to read Ex-Deut and face the reality that the Mosaic Covenant and the Mosaic Law are one large and unified body of agreement between YHWH on the one hand, and Moses and Israel on the other. I've also noted @Doran asking you to explain which Covenant is being referred to in the NC as the old Covenant. Why aren't you answering (unless you did and I missed it)?

Honestly, @HIM, your inference about others' interpretations of Scripture being philosophy Jesus would rebuke is just another one of those empty arguments you keep making - then you add the word "pompous" - and then you ask others to be civil.

GDL · Sep 25, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
I assume since you didn't answer my questions or answered my question with a question- seems to be popular, that you don't have the answers.

My apology for reading past your question. YHWH gave His entire body of Mosaic legislation to Moses and Israel and included instruction for foreigners who would join them.

Is this answering your question?

SabbathBlessings · Sep 25, 2023

GDL said:
My apology for reading past your question. YHWH gave His entire body of Mosaic legislation to Moses and Israel and included instruction for foreigners who would join them.

Is this answering your question?

These were my initial questions....this answer does not answer these questions below.

Where in scripture does it say more than the Ten Commandments was written by the finger of God. Where in scripture does it say anything other than the Ten were placed inside the ark?

GDL · Sep 25, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
The Ten Commandments is the law of God, personally written by God, personally spoken by God. In God's New Covenant- He wrote His laws to who?

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Same people, because Israel means so much more than "Jews" and we are grafted into God's Covenant promise made with Israel through our faith Gal 3:26-28

The Ten Commandments is His Word- spoken and written personally by God. There will be many believers in that great day who will say Lord Lord (believers) but it is those who do His will and that Jesus knows. Mat 7:21-23 We are known by Him through our obedience 1 John 2:3 because faith is more than just believing in, it's a call to action. Rev 22:14

Why did you ask me a question and then answer it yourself and then criticize me for not answering your question?

I fully realize what you're doing by making us the true Jew and carrying forth the Mosaic Law, or just part of it, forward into the New Covenant. But this doesn't work for me. I see quite a vast difference between the Law of Christ and the Law of Moses and I see no reason to see Jeremiah to be speaking of Old Covenant Law that will be written on hearts instead of the Law of Christ. I think it was Paul that was chosen by Christ to realize this and make the case for the rest of us.

I also find it fascinating that the 2 Greatest Commandments according to Jesus Christ and not unknown by those who tested Him, were not the 10C but the Shema and the Love Neighbor Command from Lev19:18. It's obvious these 2 Commandments became the focus of the Law of Christ, so some of what YHWH gave Moses is again applicable in the NCLaw of Christ. It's a matter of what's included and what's not.

Additionally, I also find it fascinating that some seem to completely disregard what Paul says the Mosaic Law is for and not for, and that he can state very clearly that Christians are not under (subjection to) the Mosaic Law, have been released from it, died to it, it is not valid for righteous men (aka. Christians walking in Spirit), the old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant instituted in Christ's blood, etc., etc., etc., yet we have some telling us we need to obey the OCLaw of Moses - but not all of it as a unit - just part of it.

Jesus Christ has His own Law and what's in it and not in it is what He says. I also find it interesting that I see no statement in the NC that says wer are "under" the Law of Christ (to head this off, 1Cor9:21 IMO is not being translated correctly because "under law" there is not the same Greek wording that Paul normally uses). Point being, we're subject to Jesus Christ not Law. This is one of the paradoxes we are left to work out in Scripture. There are plenty re: law in the Bible. Ask Paul.

GDL · Sep 25, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
Where in scripture does it say more than the Ten Commandments was written by the finger of God. Where in scripture does it say anything other than the Ten were placed inside the ark?

Where does Scripture specifically say the 10 are being written in minds and on hearts now in Christ in Spirit? Isn't this what we're actually talking about? Please don't tell me Jer31. This has been discussed more than a few times on this and on the other lengthy @Doran post just a week or so ago.

You know all the arguments against the continuation of the 4th Commandment. I know your arguments for the continuation. I've studied the matter extensively over many years. I've read many exegetical studies on Biblical Law and many both for and against the continuation of the 4th Commandment. I'm sided more on the against than I was 6 months ago. The Mosaic Law is simply not my Law in Christ in Spirit.

With respect none of you here are showing me I'm wrong, but neither have the in-depth articles I've read nor have my own studies.

Doran · Sep 25, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
The Ten Commandments is the law of God, personally written by God, personally spoken by God. In God's New Covenant- He wrote His laws to who?

Click to expand...

You tell me, I didn't know God wrote anything in the New Covenant. I thought that's what his apostles did.

SabbathBlessings said:
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Click to expand...

But you have limited the law in people's hearts to the 10. There are numerous commandments in the NT that are not in the 10, and these cannot possibly be written on people's hearts, according to you. So, I have to assume we and they are free to break any or all commandments NOT in the Ten, right?

SabbathBlessings said:
Same people, because Israel means so much more than "Jews" and we are grafted into God's Covenant promise made with Israel through our faith Gal 3:26-28

Click to expand...

But at the same time Gentiles are DIFFERENT people culturally and religiously. They were never given the 10 commandments. God never made a covenant with the Gentiles in the OT. Where in the Gospels did Jesus teach his Jewish disciples to teach the Law to the Gentile nations!? In fact, Jesus actually distanced himself AND his disciples from the Law, doubtlessly knowing that the Law Covenant was about to come to an end! Note carefully the pronouns he used in Jn 10:34; 15:25 -- "your law", "their law", respectively.

And note this, too: Jesus did not limit the Law to the Ten! In fact, in these two passages, he used "Law" in its broadest sense -- as in all or anywhere in the OT canon.( Re the two cites above to the Psalms, see also Lk 24:44.) As stated often, the Jews (as did Christ) thought of the Law basically in three divisions: The Pentateuch, the Writings (various wisdom books such as the Psalms), and the Prophets. They NEVER thought of the Law in terms of primarily the Ten Commandments! Totally foreign concept to the bible and to the Jews and to Jesus.

In a real sense, God in his infinite wisdom structured the OT to reflect his own Triunity (less personality, of course, to save you the trouble of making an inane criticism). The three divisions stated above are also ONE LAW! He has structured the NT along very similar lines. We have the thee distinct divisions consisting of the Four Gospels, Acts (the important historical bridge between the Gospels and the Epistles) and the Epistles themselves, and all these divisions are one body of Gospel Truth, The Gospel that Paul classified as a "mystery" in the OT is now fully revealed in the NT.

And God has done the same thing with his physical creation. The entire universe is a 3-in-1 universe. It's a triune universe! The universe consists of Space, Matter and Time. And none of these could exist apart from the other. Also each of these major components consists of three more...but I digress...

SabbathBlessings said:
The Ten Commandments is His Word- spoken and written personally by God. There will be many believers in that great day who will say Lord Lord (believers) but it is those who do His will and that Jesus knows. Mat 7:21-23 We are known by Him through our obedience 1 John 2:3 because faith is more than just believing in, it's a call to action. Rev 22:14

Click to expand...

And his will, fist and foremost, is to believe his Gospel! Have you never read:

John 16:8-11
8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned?
NIV

Isn't sin, the "transgression of the law", i.e. breaking any of the 10? Yet, where in the Ten is the command to believe in the Messiah? So...tell me, SB, what law will non-believers have broken by not believing the Gospel? There must be a law somewhere that non-believers violated, right? Can you find it?

P.S. And this problem becomes even worse! Since believing in the Messiah is nowhere to be found in the Ten, and yet it's only the Ten that are written upon everyone's hearts, how would it be fair to non-believers on judgment day to be condemned for a sin that was never even written on their hearts?

Doran · Sep 25, 2023

HIM said:
So the fact you know it isn’t called the mosaic law covenant and you continue to call it that with the scores of others should be a red flag for you. Scores of others were making their own philosophy in Jesus’ time also and he rebuked them for it. And I am very good at sarcasm also. And can be just as pompous as the next fellow. Why not just forego that and be civil?

So we shouldn't be referring to God as the Trinity, should we? That would be another red flag, right?

SabbathBlessings · Sep 25, 2023

GDL said:
Where does Scripture specifically say the 10 are being written in minds and on hearts now in Christ in Spirit? Isn't this what we're actually talking about? Please don't tell me Jer31. This has been discussed more than a few times on this and on the other lengthy @Doran post just a week or so ago.

The fact that the Ten Commandments are all throughout the NC means they weren't deleted.

God said He would write His laws in the hearts and minds of His people- God told us what His laws are right in the Ten Commandments Exo 20:6 His commandments were always meant to be in the heart Deut 6:6-9 and it is His will Psa 40:8

The same laws that define sin Rom 7:7 because that is what our salvation is from Mat 1:21, the same law Jesus tells us not to break the least of these commandments Mat 5:19-30. The same law James said you break one you break them all and what we will be judged by James 2:10-12 and kept by God's people until the very end of time Rev 22:14-15.

I find it very strange you would think God's law would be everything but what He said it was and what He personally wrote and personally spoke and is in His heavenly Temple Rev 11:19 and what the earthy temple was patterned after.

GDL said:
You know all the arguments against the continuation of the 4th Commandment. I know your arguments for the continuation. I've studied the matter extensively over many years. I've read many exegetical studies on Biblical Law and many both for and against the continuation of the 4th Commandment. I'm sided more on the against than I was 6 months ago. The Mosaic Law is simply not my Law in Christ in Spirit.

With respect none of you here are showing me I'm wrong, but neither have the in-depth articles I've read nor have my own studies.

Thats because every scripture that we provide like James 2:10-12, Romans 7:7, Mat 5:19-30, Mat 15:3-9, Mat 19:17-19, Luke 4:16, Mark 7:6-14, Rev 22:14-15, Rev 11:19, 1 John 5:3, Isa 66:22-23, 1 Cor 7:19, Mark 2:27, Isa 56, and so many others, simply either go unanswered or claim they mean something different than what they say.

God Disqualified Christians From Participating in the Mosaic Law Covenant

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