Is the Daniel 7 little horn, Daniel 8 little horn, same person ?

Douggg · Sep 10, 2023

I created the poll, so that we can see who believes what.

John839 · Sep 10, 2023

Daniel 7:8 is about the Antichrist. (Revelation 13:11)

Daniel 8:9 is about Antiochus Epiphanes. The whole chapter was already fulfilled. Dispensationalists say that the chapter refers to the future. They say this because they are misguided. In them is the spirit of the devil that leads them to false interpretations.

grafted branch · Sep 10, 2023

The little horn in Daniel 8:8-9 comes out of the third beast, the little horn in Daniel 7:7-8 comes out of the fourth beast.

DavidPT · Sep 10, 2023

grafted branch said:
The little horn in Daniel 8:8-9 comes out of the third beast, the little horn in Daniel 7:7-8 comes out of the fourth beast.

It all depends how you look at it.

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Out of one of what? One of the four winds of heaven, obviously. In Daniel 7 we see a connection with the 4 winds of heaven and it too involves 4 of something, 4 beasts in this case.

Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

According to Daniel 7 the little horn emerges from the 4th beast. This then tells us which one of the 4 four winds of heaven the little horn emerges from per Daniel 8.

grafted branch · Sep 10, 2023

DavidPT said:
It all depends how you look at it.

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Out of one of what? One of the four winds of heaven, obviously. In Daniel 7 we see a connection with the 4 winds of heaven and it too involves 4 of something, 4 beasts in this case.

Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

According to Daniel 7 the little horn emerges from the 4th beast. This then tells us which one of the 4 four winds of heaven the little horn emerges from per Daniel 8.

I see your point, in Daniel 8:8-9 the little horn came out of either the four notable ones (horns) or it came out of the four winds. Coming out of the four winds could be a possibility which would make the little horn the fifth horn in that case instead of one of the four horns. While this maybe so, how would that fit with AE4? Was AE4 a fifth or was he one of four? I was under the impression that you agreed with AE4 fulfilling at least a portion of Daniel 8.

Douggg · Sep 10, 2023

grafted branch said:
I see your point, in Daniel 8:8-9 the little horn came out of either the four notable ones (horns) or it came out of the four winds. Coming out of the four winds could be a possibility which would make the little horn the fifth horn in that case instead of one of the four horns.

The four winds in Daniel 8:8 indicates the four geographical directions. The little horn person comes south and east toward the pleasant land in Daniel 8:9

"little horn came forth" - Daniel 8:9
"prince who come come" - Daniel 9:26

by him the daily sacrifice was taken away - Daniel 8:11
causes the daily sacrifice to cease - Daniel 9:26

same person at the time of the end.

the little horn in Daniel 7 over ten kings, is the little horn of Daniel 8, who comes south and east following Gog/Magog, as the prince who shall come of Daniel 9:26, who then becomes the Antichrist, who then stops the daily sacrifice, revealing himself as the man of sin, who then becomes the beast-king over the ten kings in Daniel 7. The full circle view.

grafted branch · Sep 10, 2023

Douggg said:
The four winds in Daniel 8:8 indicates the four geographical directions. The little horn person comes south and east toward the pleasant land in Daniel 8:9

"little horn came forth" - Daniel 8:9
"prince who come come" - Daniel 9:26

by him the daily sacrifice was taken away - Daniel 8:11
causes the daily sacrifice to cease - Daniel 9:26

same person at the time of the end.

the little horn in Daniel 7 over ten kings, is the little horn of Daniel 8, who comes south and east following Gog/Magog, as the prince who shall come of Daniel 9:26, who then becomes the Antichrist, who then stops the daily sacrifice, revealing himself as the man of sin, who then becomes the beast-king over the ten kings in Daniel 7. The full circle view.

In Daniel 8:8 the great horn of the he goat is broken and four notable ones came up. The he goat is the third beast. Do you think the little horn in Daniel 8:9 comes from the he goat (third beast) or not?

Douggg · Sep 10, 2023

grafted branch said:
In Daniel 8:8 the great horn of the he goat is broken and four notable ones came up. The he goat is the third beast. Do you think the little horn in Daniel 8:9 comes from the he goat (third beast) or not?

No, the little horn comes from the direction of one of the four breakup kingdoms - into the middle east, Israel. At the time of the end.

grafted branch · Sep 10, 2023

Douggg said:
No, the little horn comes from the direction of one of the four breakup kingdoms - into the middle east, Israel. At the time of the end.

Alright, then are you saying there is a gap in between Daniel 8:8 and Daniel 8:9, just as there is a gap in the seventy weeks?

grafted branch · Sep 10, 2023

Here’s the LXX for Daniel 8:8-9

8 And the he-goat grew exceedingly great: and when he was strong, his great horn was broken; and four other rose up in its place toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth one strong horn, and it grew very great toward the south, and toward the host:

Douggg · Sep 10, 2023

grafted branch said:
Alright, then are you saying there is a gap in between Daniel 8:8 and Daniel 8:9, just as there is a gap in the seventy weeks?

Yes.

Douggg · Sep 10, 2023

grafted branch said:
Here’s the LXX for Daniel 8:8-9

8 And the he-goat grew exceedingly great: and when he was strong, his great horn was broken; and four other rose up in its place toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth one strong horn, and it grew very great toward the south, and toward the host:

Okay, the strong horn is because the little horn will be leader over the ten EU leaders at the time. He is strong because the military of the EU.

From the Judaism 101 site about the Jews view of their coming messiah...

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel.

Can you not see how things are shaping up that Zelensky could be that guy ?

grafted branch · Sep 10, 2023

Douggg said:
Okay, the strong horn is because the little horn will be leader over the ten EU leaders at the time. He is strong because the military of the EU.

From the Judaism 101 site about the Jews view of their coming messiah...

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel.

Can you not see how things are shaping up that Zelensky could be that guy ?

I really don’t pay that close attention to Zelenskyy.

From the LXX in Daniel 8:8 all the horns rise up towards the four winds. In verse 9 the strong horn grows toward the south. This version of the Bible doesn’t imply a gap, verse 9 gives additional information on the four horns of verse 8.

I guess this boils down to the same kind of arguments for and against the gap in the seventy weeks. Maybe if you believe in a seventy week gap you believe the little horn in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 are the same and if you don’t have a gap you think they are different?

DavidPT · Sep 10, 2023

grafted branch said:
I really don’t pay that close attention to Zelenskyy.

From the LXX in Daniel 8:8 all the horns rise up towards the four winds. In verse 9 the strong horn grows toward the south. This version of the Bible doesn’t imply a gap, verse 9 gives additional information on the four horns of verse 8.

I guess this boils down to the same kind of arguments for and against the gap in the seventy weeks. Maybe if you believe in a seventy week gap you believe the little horn in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 are the same and if you don’t have a gap you think they are different?

How can there not be a gap somewhere when we are told the vision is shut up, and that the vision involving the little horn is for the time of the end? Seriously, how can anyone other than Christ and NT authors, such as John(the book of Revelation), being the ones that initially open up the shut up words? Even in Matthew 24 the reader is told to understand what the prophet Daniel was meaning in regards to an AOD, great tribulation, etc. Obviously, regardless that some of you disagree, this includes the words that were shut up, such as per the vision involving Daniel 8 and the little horn. But let's apply that to A4E instead. Let's disregard that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has to fit somewhere in here.

Instead of using Scripture to interpret Scripture, I guess we're supposed to just speculate as to how and by whom Daniel's shut up words per Daniel 8 managed to get opened up before A4E did what he was going to do. Because, like I already pointed out in another thread, you don't shut up the words to a vision, such as the one involving Daniel 8, then wait until the vision is fulfilled, then open up the words. Like that's going to be helpful to someone who the vision is directly involving, by waiting until after the vision is fulfilled to then open up Daniel's shut up words---not.

grafted branch · Sep 10, 2023

DavidPT said:
Instead of using Scripture to interpret Scripture, I guess we're supposed to just speculate as to how and by whom Daniel's shut up words per Daniel 8 managed to get opened up before A4E did what he was going to do. Because, like I already pointed out in another thread, you don't shut up the words to a vision, such as the one involving Daniel 8, then wait until the vision is fulfilled, then open up the words. Like that's going to be helpful to someone who the vision is directly involving, by waiting until after the vision is fulfilled to then open up Daniel's shut up words---not.

I would say it is debatable whether a vision needs to be unsealed for the people it involves, and especially debatable for futurists.

Let’s take for example the number 666. While Revelation isn’t sealed there is no real consensus on what the meaning is or what exactly 666 is. Futurist will say we have yet to experience this period of time and we know it’s not sealed per the book of Revelation, so what can we say, are all people, or at least believers, going to completely agree on the meaning of 666 prior to its occurrence? If that’s the case then the meaning of 666 is currently sealed from some people, which disagrees with Revelation saying it’s unsealed.

So what does it mean to be unsealed? Certainly we can’t say it means all believers will be in agreement when something is unsealed, right?

DavidPT · Sep 10, 2023

grafted branch said:
I would say it is debatable whether a vision needs to be unsealed for the people it involves, and especially debatable for futurists.

Let’s take for example the number 666. While Revelation isn’t sealed there is no real consensus on what the meaning is or what exactly 666 is. Futurist will say we have yet to experience this period of time and we know it’s not sealed per the book of Revelation, so what can we say, are all people, or at least believers, going to completely agree on the meaning of 666 prior to its occurrence? If that’s the case then the meaning of 666 is currently sealed from some people, which disagrees with Revelation saying it’s unsealed.

So what does it mean to be unsealed? Certainly we can’t say it means all believers will be in agreement when something is unsealed, right?

You raise some valid points that I simply can't argue with. But let's look at this from the perspective of the following though, where it plainly tells us when shut up words are initially no longer shut up. And IMO, since Daniel 8 is connected to Daniel 12, the same should apply to the shut up vision per Daniel 8.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end : many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

It can't get any clearer, the words remain shut up until the time of the end. A lot of us think the time of the end began with Christ's first advent, and that the 2nd advent is when the literal end is, meaning the end of this present age. IOW, the last days, the time of the end, this is basically the same thing.

If the time of the end meant in both Daniel 8 and Daniel 12 are meaning BC, such as during the days of A4E, then we are back to speculating as to how they were opened and who opened them, because, clearly, whatever period of time we apply the time of the end to, Daniel's words are no longer shut up, the book is no longer sealed at that point in time. Daniel 12:4 makes that crystal clear.

Which then means that Christ nor any NT author, such as John(the Book of Revelation) , needed to bother opening up Daniel's shut up words because someone (but who knows who that someone is though?) already opened up the words, already unsealed the book centuries earlier. Speaking for myself, I can't get on board with nonsense like that, that we have to resort to speculating as to how and by whom Daniel's shut up words got opened before Christ was even born.

Douggg · Sep 10, 2023

grafted branch said:
I would say it is debatable whether a vision needs to be unsealed for the people it involves, and especially debatable for futurists.

Let’s take for example the number 666. While Revelation isn’t sealed there is no real consensus on what the meaning is or what exactly 666 is. Futurist will say we have yet to experience this period of time and we know it’s not sealed per the book of Revelation, so what can we say, are all people, or at least believers, going to completely agree on the meaning of 666 prior to its occurrence? If that’s the case then the meaning of 666 is currently sealed from some people, which disagrees with Revelation saying it’s unsealed.

So what does it mean to be unsealed? Certainly we can’t say it means all believers will be in agreement when something is unsealed, right?

Daniel 12 deals with the 1290 days and 1335th day associated with abomination of desolation. In Revelation 13, the mention of 666 is not until after the false prophet has the image made of the beast king (the image being the abomination desolation).

Therefore, the 666 may be directly associated with that image - and perhaps not understood until that image is made..

The people who will be worshiping the image - would not be calling it the abomination of desolation. What will they be calling it ? Will it have a name (like the Oscar of hollywood awards) ?

Will that image have "666" written on it ?

Since the beast will blasphemy against God, his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven, will followers of the beast be taking the 666 number as an act of defiance against Christianity from which bible the number comes from ?

Then again, Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda duped his followers to be tattooed with 666.

grafted branch · Sep 10, 2023

Douggg said:
Daniel 12 deals with the 1290 days and 1335th day associated with abomination of desolation. In Revelation 13, the mention of 666 is not until after the false prophet has the image made of the beast king (the image being the abomination desolation).

Therefore, the 666 may be directly associated with that image - and perhaps not understood until that image is made..

The people who will be worshiping the image - would not be calling it the abomination of desolation. What will they be calling it ? Will it have a name (like the Oscar of hollywood awards) ?

Will that image have "666" written on it ?

Since the beast will blasphemy against God, his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven, will followers of the beast be taking the 666 number as an act of defiance against Christianity from which bible the number comes from ?

Then again, Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda duped his followers to be tattooed with 666.

Well I could’ve bought up a subject such as baptism, sprinkle or immersion, infant baptism or not. Baptism isn’t sealed.

But back to the 666 problem, you are suggesting that believers will be looking to the beast and his image in order to understand the Bible? And if Daniel 8 is still shut up then are you saying it’s the beast that ultimately unseals it by his actions? If so the AE4 could’ve unsealed Daniel 8.

Douggg · Sep 10, 2023

grafted branch said:
But back to the 666 problem, you are suggesting that believers will be looking to the beast and his image in order to understand the Bible? And if Daniel 8 is still shut up then are you saying it’s the beast that ultimately unseals it by his actions? If so the AE4 could’ve unsealed Daniel 8.

Not looking to, but look at, as the events take place.

I think for the Jews when the little horn person stops the daily sacrifice and commits the transgression of desolation act - they will realize their big mistake thinking he was their messiah, and will turn to Jesus.

AE4 does not have anything to do with Daniel 8.

grafted branch · Sep 10, 2023

Douggg said:
Not looking to, but look at, as the events take place.

I think for the Jews when the little horn person stops the daily sacrifice and commits the transgression of desolation act - they will realize their big mistake thinking he was their messiah, and will turn to Jesus.

AE4 does not have anything to do with Daniel 8.

Ok, I know you don’t agree that Daniel 8 has anything to do with AE4 but as far as the question of how did or will Daniel 8 get unsealed, the answer could be the same for both you and me, and that answer would be by the actions of the little horn himself.

Look at what Jesus said to John’s disciples in Matthew 11:4-6 after they asked art thou he that should come. They were told to show John the things which they heard and saw. Based on this it would be up to an individual to observe evidence and draw a conclusion off of that evidence as to whether or not something is being fulfilled.

For me AE4 is the evidence that Daniel 8 has been fulfilled.

Is the Daniel 7 little horn, Daniel 8 little horn, same person ?

Is the little horn in Daniel 7 and the little horn in Daniel 8, the same person ?

Yes

No

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