Ending the War in Ukraine

Merrill · Jul 24, 2023

The consequences of the Ukraine War are going to be, in the very least, a destabilized and "failed" Ukraine

Destroyed infrastructure, widespread crop failures, 20-30% of their population emigrated (and lots of dead), ruined cities, mass corruption, and a depleted military

So the question then becomes, what is best for Ukraine, and what can be achieved?

1. A plebiscite to determine what happens in the eastern provinces --they will like go over to Russia, as they are Russian-speaking regions.
2. An immediate plan to get Ukraine not only rebuilt, but admitted into the EU.
3. A profit-sharing initiative with Russia concerning the natural gas and oil pipelines, etc.
4. A formal treaty and promise not to extend NATO membership to Ukraine (which would cause a war)

Either an peace treaty and agreement is made within the next few months, or the Russians will launch a major winter offensive as they did in 1941. The Ukranian counter-offensive has failed, and their strength is depleted. Russia has the initiative.

People can believe the propaganda and keep drinking the Kool-Aid, but unless peace is achieved soon, most of Ukraine will be lost to Russia by the Spring of next year. Zelenksy will likely be in exile or dead by then

Love365 · Aug 5, 2023

Did Russia ask for blue helmets in 2017 ?

United Nations Peacekeeping ?

The Hour IS AT HAND · Aug 25, 2023

Yall, are we not getting lost in the sauce here? Isnt Satan running the show on this earth?

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, because they all served him. What makes you think today is any different? The United Nations is steeped in occultism and mysticism from it's very inception, I am sure the EU is much the same. Politics = WWE

The History of the United Nations

The United Nations has been shaping history since 1945. What are its foundational dogmas and mandates?

amazingdiscoveries.org

aNewMan · Sep 9, 2023

The USA needs to stop giving them money, not one more cent! Unfortunately " the Big guy" is making too much money from it.

Lukaris · Sep 9, 2023

I believe a general framework for peace should be for Russia to get out of the Ukrainian territory they have devastated since 2022. Crimea should remain with Russia. While the Russian takeover of Crimea in 2014 is probably illegal, most of Crimea is ethnically Russian & pro Moscow.

A greater sacrifice for peace should underlie the status of Crimea & Russia should be made to pay reparations to rebuild Ukraine.

The thing is it really doesn’t seem like any of the powers that be really seek peace. I believe the suffering civilians want peace but the politicians ( Russia, Ukraine etc)really seem lacking in negotiating any sort of treaty or whatever.

Arcangl86 · Sep 9, 2023

aNewMan said:
The USA needs to stop giving them money, not one more cent! Unfortunately " the Big guy" is making too much money from it.

Is he? How?

aNewMan · Sep 9, 2023

Arcangl86 said:
Is he? How?

Thats between the Big Guy and his handlers, or maybe you can ask his son Hunter.

Arcangl86 · Sep 9, 2023

aNewMan said:
Thats between the Big Guy and his handlers, or maybe you can ask his son Hunter.

So you cannot support your claim at all then.

aNewMan · Sep 9, 2023

Arcangl86 said:
So you cannot support your claim at all then.

Its not my "claim". This forum is Discussion & Debate I'm not super interested in trying to debate or change anyone's minds to fit my view. Is that okay here.

Arcangl86 · Sep 9, 2023

aNewMan said:
Its not my "claim".

aNewMan said:
Unfortunately " the Big guy" is making too much money from it.

You are making a specific factual statement. That's a claim.

aNewMan said:
This forum is Discussion & Debate I'm not super interested in trying to debate or change anyone's minds to fit my view. Is that okay here.

Yes this is the Discussion & Debate forum. Discussion is more than saying things and then deflecting when asked to speak more on it.

Love365 · Oct 17, 2023

Most of Russia’s population is on the European side of Russia.

JimR-OCDS · Oct 24, 2023

According to what the person(forgot his name) I saw on Patrick Bet-David last week
Russia already has won what they want in Ukraine They have the Donbas Region,
Crimea, and the only thing left is to keep Zelensky from joining NATO, which is
most likely to happen.

Meanwhile, Zelensky has gotten most of Ukraine destroyed by not compromising.
Biden gave him all the promises that the US was behind him,
Wrong! Just the US Defense Industry, not the American people. Now we have
Israel to support. Biden only wants 100 billion for Ukraine and Israel and to
fix the southern border along Mexico.

The House Republicans can't even choose a speaker, yet they want to lead the nation? Yeah right!

mindlight · Nov 9, 2023

Merrill said:
The consequences of the Ukraine War are going to be, in the very least, a destabilized and "failed" Ukraine

Destroyed infrastructure, widespread crop failures, 20-30% of their population emigrated (and lots of dead), ruined cities, mass corruption, and a depleted military

So the question then becomes, what is best for Ukraine, and what can be achieved?

1. A plebiscite to determine what happens in the eastern provinces --they will like go over to Russia, as they are Russian-speaking regions.
2. An immediate plan to get Ukraine not only rebuilt, but admitted into the EU.
3. A profit-sharing initiative with Russia concerning the natural gas and oil pipelines, etc.
4. A formal treaty and promise not to extend NATO membership to Ukraine (which would cause a war)

Either an peace treaty and agreement is made within the next few months, or the Russians will launch a major winter offensive as they did in 1941. The Ukranian counter-offensive has failed, and their strength is depleted. Russia has the initiative.

People can believe the propaganda and keep drinking the Kool-Aid, but unless peace is achieved soon, most of Ukraine will be lost to Russia by the Spring of next year. Zelenksy will likely be in exile or dead by then

Ukraine is still there and not in danger of losing this war. American support is crucial right now but as time passes and the Europeans beef up munitions production it will be less significant. The war is now characterized by trench warfare behind minefields and breakthroughs are harder. So the highest probability is that the current lines will stabilize, hundreds of thousands of people will die in fruitless attempts at breakthroughs and when both sides finally admit the need for a compromise these will be the new boundaries agreed at a ceasefire. After that, I agree remnant Ukraine should be admitted to the EU and NATO to stabilize the borders and remove all prospects of future Russian aggression. Russia chose Asia in this war and has no place in the European parliament because its corruption and lack of democratic credentials.

Love365 · Nov 9, 2023

Russia and Ukraine need to join the European Union on the same day.

So they don’t try to lock each other out.

Merrill · Nov 13, 2023

mindlight said:
Ukraine is still there and not in danger of losing this war. American support is crucial right now but as time passes and the Europeans beef up munitions production it will be less significant. The war is now characterized by trench warfare behind minefields and breakthroughs are harder. So the highest probability is that the current lines will stabilize, hundreds of thousands of people will die in fruitless attempts at breakthroughs and when both sides finally admit the need for a compromise these will be the new boundaries agreed at a ceasefire. After that, I agree remnant Ukraine should be admitted to the EU and NATO to stabilize the borders and remove all prospects of future Russian aggression. Russia chose Asia in this war and has no place in the European parliament because its corruption and lack of democratic credentials.

Recent intelligence reports and stories from journalists paint a very bad picture of what is going on with the war

Zelenksy's advisors and generals frustrated with his "messianic" quest to win the conflict, low troop morale, field commanders refusing to follow orders to advance, mass corruption and theft of US funds

the Ukrainian counter-offensive was a disaster

either there is some kind of peace treaty in the next few months, or the Russians will simply go ahead and take more territory, bomb the country, and whittle away at the Ukrainian forces.

I said this from the start: Ukraine cannot win this conflict. It does not have the men, the arms, or the leadership. North Korea and China (under-the-table) are sending massive amounts of arms to Russia. The Russian economy is propped up by China, India, and other nations, and there is no sign of economic collapse from sanctions. Putin is fully-in-control after the Wagner uprising. All of this western propaganda about Russia being unable to arm its men, using WWII tanks, etc. is nonsense. Putin was throwing T-62s at the Ukrainians so he could keep his modern equipment back. He never even did a general mobilization. Meanwhile, Ukraine is pulling middle-aged-men off of trains and buses and sending them to the front.

Ukraine is going to lose--the question is, what will that look like? A treaty in which some territory in the east is given to Russia? Or the Russian army marching through Kiev, with Zelenksy in exile, or dead

Richard T · Nov 13, 2023

Love365 said:
Russia and Ukraine need seats in European Parliament.

The EU will not let Russia join. Membership allows free mobility and I don't think they want all those Russians moving into Germany, France etc. I'm pretty sure the standards include basic rights which Russia does not have. Things like free press, free exercise of religion, or free speech.

Arcangl86 · Nov 13, 2023

Richard T said:
The EU will not let Russia join. Membership allows free mobility and I don't think they want all those Russians moving into Germany, France etc. I'm pretty sure the standards include basic rights which Russia does not have. Things like free press, free exercise of religion, or free speech.

Not to mention that Russia has NEVER expressed interest in joining the EU, and has actually explicitly said otherwise.

mindlight · Nov 13, 2023

Merrill said:
Recent intelligence reports and stories from journalists paint a very bad picture of what is going on with the war

Zelenksy's advisors and generals frustrated with his "messianic" quest to win the conflict, low troop morale, field commanders refusing to follow orders to advance, mass corruption and theft of US funds

the Ukrainian counter-offensive was a disaster

either there is some kind of peace treaty in the next few months, or the Russians will simply go ahead and take more territory, bomb the country, and whittle away at the Ukrainian forces.

I said this from the start: Ukraine cannot win this conflict. It does not have the men, the arms, or the leadership. North Korea and China (under-the-table) are sending massive amounts of arms to Russia. The Russian economy is propped up by China, India, and other nations, and there is no sign of economic collapse from sanctions. Putin is fully-in-control after the Wagner uprising. All of this western propaganda about Russia being unable to arm its men, using WWII tanks, etc. is nonsense. Putin was throwing T-62s at the Ukrainians so he could keep his modern equipment back. He never even did a general mobilization. Meanwhile, Ukraine is pulling middle-aged-men off of trains and buses and sending them to the front.

Ukraine is going to lose--the question is, what will that look like? A treaty in which some territory in the east is given to Russia? Or the Russian army marching through Kiev, with Zelenksy in exile, or dead

Zelensky and indeed Ukraine have done an incredible job holding off the Russians and indeed regaining some territories previously lost to them. A ceasefire on current lines would not be a defeat but rather a remarkable achievement for them. But as far back as 2014 we were debating this on this site and I suggested that a partition with strong settled borders was probably the best long-term solution. I think Ukraine will only have settled borders if inside NATO.

The Donbas and Crimea have strong Russian leanings as the 2010 election showed and the population there looks East, not West. But the rest looks West and their sense of national identity has been massively refined by the struggles since the loss of the Crimea. A whole generation has grown up accustomed to perpetual warfare with a myopic focus on what victory looks like. Being realistic about what is achievable and when to call it a day and start talking ceasefire is something that a lot of Ukrainians are going to struggle with. There is no question of allowing Russia any further gains but the price for NATO entry will have to be the surrender of hopes of regaining lost lands. We cannot have our latest members starting wars and using NATO to achieve a result.

Russia is also going to have to give up a lot in any negotiation, the dream of greater Russia has been permanently killed by this war. It needs to adjust to be an ex-superpower that was not even able to defeat a country only a fraction of its size, economic, and military weight. Its pretensions are broken by the reality test of war and not even Lavrov can lie himself out of the optics of that. Russia has committed major economic errors in failing to honor its trade contracts with Europe and trade with China and India will not be as profitable for them. No longer a bear it is in danger of becoming Xi Jinping's poodle as a result of this war, even if they get peace now.

Merrill · Nov 13, 2023

mindlight said:
Zelensky and indeed Ukraine have done an incredible job holding off the Russians and indeed regaining some territories previously lost to them. A ceasefire on current lines would not be a defeat but rather a remarkable achievement for them. But as far back as 2014 we were debating this on this site and I suggested that a partition with strong settled borders was probably the best long-term solution. I think Ukraine will only have settled borders if inside NATO.

The Donbas and Crimea have strong Russian leanings as the 2010 election showed and the population there looks East, not West. But the rest looks West and their sense of national identity has been massively refined by the struggles since the loss of the Crimea. A whole generation has grown up accustomed to perpetual warfare with a myopic focus on what victory looks like. Being realistic about what is achievable and when to call it a day and start talking ceasefire is something that a lot of Ukrainians are going to struggle with. There is no question of allowing Russia any further gains but the price for NATO entry will have to be the surrender of hopes of regaining lost lands. We cannot have our latest members starting wars and using NATO to achieve a result.

Russia is also going to have to give up a lot in any negotiation, the dream of greater Russia has been permanently killed by this war. It needs to adjust to be an ex-superpower that was not even able to defeat a country only a fraction of its size, economic, and military weight. Its pretensions are broken by the reality test of war and not even Lavrov can lie himself out of the optics of that. Russia has committed major economic errors in failing to honor its trade contracts with Europe and trade with China and India will not be as profitable for them. No longer a bear it is in danger of becoming Xi Jinping's poodle as a result of this war, even if they get peace now.

I have floated this idea of a peace agreement before, but it deserves another look

As you say, the populations of Donbass, Crimea, etc. were always Russian in their orientation --and the Ukrainians have to ask themselves if it is worth it, to hang on to these territories? What SHOULD Ukraine really want:

1. EU membership and European investment: this should be the #1 prize sought by Zelensky and co. This transforms the economy, strengthens the country's ties to the west, and brings the nation into the 21st century. This membership needs to be recognized by Russia.
2. An economic agreement, or some kind of profit-sharing arrangement with Russia in regards to the oil and gas pipelines that pass through the Ukraine.
3. Rights to use the Port of Sevastopol.

NATO membership does very little for Ukraine, and threatens to cause more conflict with Russia. It is a non-starter for Putin and Russia--they will never accept this. It isn't worth pursuing

to get an agreement like this, Ukraine will have to give up territory. But it is territory that isn't worth keeping.

Love365 · Nov 14, 2023

Richard T said:
The EU will not let Russia join. Membership allows free mobility and I don't think they want all those Russians moving into Germany, France etc. I'm pretty sure the standards include basic rights which Russia does not have. Things like free press, free exercise of religion, or free speech.

If Russia had seats in European Parliament
they would become more like them over time.

Ending the War in Ukraine

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