Kindergarten Cops?

Fantine · Sep 8, 2023

I was invited to be a surrogate grandma at a friend's daughter's school yesterday. It's a religious school in a red, red, red state.

I have been to lots of grandparents' days in my time, but this one was different. We were all herded into the large cafetorium, where we waited for the children to arrive. When they arrived they brought us donuts, and then we looked at all the items at the school book fair. None of the books were inexpensive, but that was OK. Parochial schools need funding. We waited on very long lines to pay our bill, and that was it.

In the good old days (before school shootings) we would go to the classroom, look at lovingly compiled portfolios of their work, then on to the auditorium to hear them sing and dance for their families. We got to know the teachers.

I learned that this school has full-time police protection from the local police department. They posted pictures of the police officer in the playground, in the hallway, installing hidden cameras in the ceiling, even guarding the chapel services, standing in the back, waiting for a deranged shooter...

I then learned that most schools, public or private, have security or police protection (the officer was at Grandparents' Day wearing what appeared to be a kevlar vest.) I am glad that steps are being taken to protect the children, but I am seething, incensed, to the boiling point that it is due to the selfishness, greed, and anger of gun owners, who look at any less traumatic ways to keep these children safe as interfering with their rights.

Children should be able to go to schools that aren't on lockdown each day, surrounded by police in kevlar vests. They should be able to have little celebrations here and there that parents and/or grandparents can attend.

A black minister friend of mine says that even though the police presence is friendly and supportive, many black children have had so many bad family experiences associated with the police that they are traumatized by the police presence.

This school is multi-ethnic, on a peaceful tree-lined street with beautiful gardens. It is about as suburban as you can find.

Why do children have to pay the price for the selfishness of gun owners who reject any and all safety precautions?

Let's say the police officer's salary and benefits come to $75K a year (we're in the South, remember.) And there are 200 children in the schools. That comes to $375 per child--$375 that could be better spent in many other educational ways. And this is every single public and private school in our town, the adjacent town, and others.

Handmaid for Jesus · Sep 8, 2023

It is just sad all the way around.

ThatRobGuy · Sep 8, 2023

Fantine said:
I then learned that most schools, public or private, have security or police protection (the officer was at Grandparents' Day wearing what appeared to be a kevlar vest.) I am glad that steps are being taken to protect the children, but I am seething, incensed, to the boiling point that it is due to the selfishness, greed, and anger of gun owners, who look at any less traumatic ways to keep these children safe as interfering with their rights.

What's your proposed solution to that problem?

While I'm a person who has guns, and appreciates gun rights and the defensive benefits they offer.... I'm reasonable, I'm in favor of universal background checks, waiting periods, and mental health screening in order for someone get a gun...and I'm in favor of carry permits being much harder to get than they currently are (I've vocally and repeatedly said our gun culture/laws should try to mimic those of the Czech Republic) Having said that, there are so many in circulation, that any measure proposed (even if it could be enacted tomorrow), wouldn't likely have any meaningful impact on the statistics in our lifetimes. There are 300 million guns in private hands at present time. (and no shortage of suppliers south of the border who'd be willing smuggle additional ones over if market conditions made it profitable)

Even if you could get all of the laws passed tomorrow that you wanted, what's your proposal for stop-gap measures until all of those guns stop functioning and having "street value"?

Point of reference, one of the guns I have is a 45 acp that my grandpa managed to sneak home from the Korean War...it still works just fine. As does the shotgun he left me that's over 50 years old.

We're in a position right now where the best we can do is have a 'good guy with a gun' who will hopefully take his role seriously in a school environment. It's obviously not ideal, but it's the cards we're dealt.

RileyG · Sep 8, 2023

"Children should be able to go to schools that aren't on lockdown each day, surrounded by police in kevlar vests. They should be able to have little celebrations here and there that parents and/or grandparents can attend."- Absolutely

There's been so many mass shootings in the past few years, it makes people afraid. I have nothing to say other I feel very bad for those children who have to grow up in that environment where nothing is safe. It breaks my heart.

dogs4thewin · Sep 20, 2023

I am what some would call VERY right wing in the gun control department. The reason well one of them is that I do not trust the government to stop at "reasonable" measures. Add to that the fact that there are SOOO many guns that no matter what you did it would likely have VERY little impact for decades and the fact that most shootings are committed either by a person's own hand (sad sure, but most of those people have no intent of taking others with them), among gangs, in the commission of another crime which they do not care anyway or in a situation where a person wants a particular person/persons dead is very determined and therefore would likely kill them one way or another and you are really left with very few honest to goodness mass shootings that really any level of control would stop ( particularly at this point with more guns than people in this country).

Going back to my not trusting the government I have a feeling it would get VERY violent VERY quickly if the government tried tough gun control measures. The reason is because you have good guys with guns who would not trust them to stop and would get violent to stop them, so then you have current "good guys" with guns who become violent due to what they see as and what may or may not be government overreach PLUS the current bad guys with guns that have no intention of following current laws and are ALREADY using guns for violent purposes.

Also, remember background checks may sound great, but they only work if a person has some sort of history either a criminal history OR a history that has been documented of non-criminal other issues such as mental health or alcohol abuse.

While I agree that people with current serious mental health issues should not have access to guns is it really fair to deny someone access to a gun who ten or twenty years ago sought help for a mental issue ( particularly if they currently are on no treatment ( and have been stable for a number of years or have had the condition under control for years with no issues ( say with medication. (though I am willing to admit that the latter option is a little risky and would need to certainly either be an exception to the help does not knock someone out or it would need to be on a very case by case basis.

In the end, it is not the gun it is who is holding it a person with ill intentions with a gun will either A get one one way or another or B will use another tool to commit their ill intentions A person who does not have ill intentions with a gun would not use them for such purposes even if they had 100 of them.

I have said before and I will likely say again people who cannot be trusted with guns do not care about the law ( they will find one or something to be violent with one way or another. Meanwhile people who can be trusted with guns or around them do not need gun laws ( for the most part) because they have sense enough to respect the gun as a tool and not use it for violent purposes ( unless the other person is a threat.

A personal example for me with that is that I have you can tell do not trust the government and am VERY pro 2nd amendment and would certainly carry if I could. I even live in a constitutional carry with no felony record being at least 21, so as far as I know under the law I am qualified to carry a gun concealed in public, yet I do not because with my cerebral palsy neither my eye sight or motor skills would allow me to safely handle a firearm, so as badly as I may want to carry I do not need a law to tell me that I have no business with one therefore I do not own one.

probinson · Sep 20, 2023

Fantine said:
Why do children have to pay the price for the selfishness of gun owners who reject any and all safety precautions?

This is a really bad take. Its not the selfishness of responsible gun owners that is to blame for school shootings, and emotionally charged rhetoric like this all but guarantees that there can't be any objective, rational discussion of the topic.

Fantine · Sep 20, 2023

probinson said:
This is a really bad take. Its not the selfishness of responsible gun owners that is to blame for school shootings, and emotionally charged rhetoric like this all but guarantees that there can't be any objective, rational discussion of topic.

When there is an overabundance of weapons in this country (more than one per person), open gun sales, no need for licensing, etc. guns are far too easy to obtain.

And now people can make their own on 3-D printers and that, too, has failed to be regulated.

And so yes. It is the selfishness of what you term 'responsible' gun owners, especially if you are dues-paying members of the NRA, who opposes (with lots of money) every single proposal to make our country and our children safer.

They think everyone--the crazy, the impaired, the alcoholics and addicted, the paranoiacs--should have guns. Their thoughts and prayers are basically "God, give us enough money to overwhelm the voices of common sense in the U.S."

Fantine · Sep 20, 2023

I commend you for making a wise decision, dogs4thewin.

I really think guns are like abortion. Our country needs a change of heart. Growing up in the NYC suburbs, guns were irrelevant. The idea that any civilian would own a gun was unimaginable, unthinkable, and probably a sign of some severe mental deviation. I was a PTA president, and at the NY State PTA convention in the early 1980's, the PTA passed a resolution to try to ban toy guns because they promoted violence among children.

I left NY in the 1990's and realized that "it's a jungle out there." The first jungle was the St. Louis suburbs, and they were a very civilized jungle. They even managed to hold the line on concealed carry prohibition (it's fallen since.) The other two states I lived in were even worse jungles.

When my parents came to visit us in South Dakota, a priest asked my dad if he were there for the pheasant hunt season. It took my father a minute to regain his composure. "Good heavens, no! I haven't fired a gun since WWII," he said.

RIP, dear dad, a man who like in Ecclesiastes, knew when to lay aside his weapons.

probinson · Sep 20, 2023

Fantine said:
When there is an overabundance of weapons in this country (more than one per person), open gun sales, no need for licensing, etc. guns are far too easy to obtain.

And now people can make their own on 3-D printers and that, too, has failed to be regulated.

So what's your solution to these issues?

Fantine said:
And so yes. It is the selfishness of what you term 'responsible' gun owners, especially if you are dues-paying members of the NRA, who opposes (with lots of money) every single proposal to make our country and our children safer.

Please demonstrate how any of what you are proposing would make our country and our children safer.

probinson · Sep 20, 2023

Fantine said:
I commend you for making a wise decision, dogs4thewin.

I really think guns are like abortion. Our country needs a change of heart. Growing up in the NYC suburbs, guns were irrelevant. The idea that any civilian would own a gun was unimaginable, unthinkable, and probably a sign of some severe mental deviation. I was a PTA president, and at the NY State PTA convention in the early 1980's, the PTA passed a resolution to try to ban toy guns because they promoted violence among children.

I left NY in the 1990's and realized that "it's a jungle out there." The first jungle was the St. Louis suburbs, and they were a very civilized jungle. They even managed to hold the line on concealed carry prohibition (it's fallen since.) The other two states I lived in were even worse jungles.

When my parents came to visit us in South Dakota, a priest asked my dad if he were there for the pheasant hunt season. It took my father a minute to regain his composure. "Good heavens, no! I haven't fired a gun since WWII," he said.

RIP, dear dad, a man who like in Ecclesiastes, knew when to lay aside his weapons.

This gives more insight into your position than you realize.

I grew up in rural PA, and while I have never owned or fired a gun, it is rather common to own a gun. I'm not a hunter, but many in my family are. In PA, it's legal to hunt at age 12, and it's quite the rite of passage for a 12-year old (boy or girl) to go hunting with an older adult in their family.

Despite your horribly unfair classification, it is not unimaginable, unthinkable, and certainly not a sign of some severe mental deviation for people to own a gun.

This is why we can't have rational discussions about guns. Your anecdotal experience and upbringing causes you to spew irresponsible and irrational rhetoric about "selfish" gun owners that is completely false. You're not looking for solutions. You're looking to place blame where it doesn't belong.

Fantine · Sep 20, 2023

I know that compromise is the best I can ever do, and with a younger generation voting who is tired of seeing people who think their guns are more important than children's lives, I believe that our national obsession with guns will wane.

I have never seen the legislators in the pockets of the gun lobby compromise even 1%.

probinson · Sep 21, 2023

Fantine said:
... who think their guns are more important than children's lives ...

Gee, it's a mystery why people aren't interested in compromises when you falsely characterize them like this.

Fantine · Sep 21, 2023

We have evidence from hundreds of other countries showing that the sheer quantities and types of assault weapons that are available and 110% unregulated on American soil are the principal reason for the danger our children are in.

There are only two possible reasons why Americans live in greater peril and danger than people in other developed nations--either because of the numbers, dangerous styles, and lack of regulation of guns in America--or because Americans are by nature more violent, more criminal, more aggressive, and less caring than those in other countries.

So which is it?

I think it's the availability and lack of regulation. I do believe that Americans are also more individualistic and selfish than residents of other nations, due to our shredded (or non-existent) social safety net and the resultant desperation and isolation.

probinson · Sep 21, 2023

Fantine said:
We have evidence from hundreds of other countries showing that the sheer quantities and types of assault weapons that are available and 110% unregulated on American soil are the principal reason for the danger our children are in.

There are only two possible reasons why Americans live in greater peril and danger than people in other developed nations--either because of the numbers, dangerous styles, and lack of regulation of guns in America--or because Americans are by nature more violent, more criminal, more aggressive, and less caring than those in other countries.

So which is it?

I think it's the availability and lack of regulation. I do believe that Americans are also more individualistic and selfish than residents of other nations, due to our shredded (or non-existent) social safety net and the resultant desperation and isolation.

It seems you just have a very poor opinion of Americans in general.

Also, the idea that firearms are "110% unregulated" is demonstrable nonsense.

Regulations for Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Code of Federal Regulations ATF regulations are published as Title 27, Chapter II, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) by the Government Printing Office. Consult the official legal version of 27 CFR (updated April 1 of each year) and any more recent final/interim rules to learn the requirements...

www.atf.gov

Aaron112 · Sep 21, 2023

probinson said:
You're looking to place blame where it doesn't belong.

Nor sure of "blame", but the responsibilty of parents is to raise the child in the way they should go.

A child thus raised will not depart from it when they are older.

Is this the parents fault <only> ? Partly ? Mostly ?
Well, some (few) parents in the worst places raise their children right, and have no problems later with the children , and the children are no danger to other people nor animals nor themselves.

So parents do make a difference.

Aaron112 · Sep 21, 2023

probinson said:
It seems you just have a very poor opinion of Americans in general.

That's normal and expected, watching America since they booted out or killed so many people , driving many from their homes and lands ....

Aaron112 · Sep 21, 2023

Fantine said:
I have never seen the legislators in the pockets of the gun lobby compromise even 1%.

If , as it looks, they are then making decisions based on the 'bribery'/ lobby/ millions of dollars,
are they
not already compromised? Lack of integrity would be or is serious, isn't it ?

Aaron112 · Sep 21, 2023

probinson said:
This is why we can't have rational discussions about guns.

Guns are not the problem. Or they are a tiny part of much bigger serious problems.
If a ship that cost more than it cost to feed everyone in a dozen large cities
is built for war,
what is rational about that ? Then it is not just one ship (with 'guns' able to destroy a small country!!)
but hundreds of such ships, worldwide other countries likewise, oh isn't that bad ?

dogs4thewin · Sep 21, 2023

Fantine said:
We have evidence from hundreds of other countries showing that the sheer quantities and types of assault weapons that are available and 110% unregulated on American soil are the principal reason for the danger our children are in.

There are only two possible reasons why Americans live in greater peril and danger than people in other developed nations--either because of the numbers, dangerous styles, and lack of regulation of guns in America--or because Americans are by nature more violent, more criminal, more aggressive, and less caring than those in other countries.

So which is it?

I think it's the availability and lack of regulation. I do believe that Americans are also more individualistic and selfish than residents of other nations, due to our shredded (or non-existent) social safety net and the resultant desperation and isolation.

First of all, there are gun regulations. Now, we can debate all day long if those regulations are reasonable or enough but there are some that exist. Not the least of which are enhancements if a firearm is used in the commission of a crime and the fact that certain people are not allowed to process firearms.

Second of all, you are old enough to remember I am not, but my mother says that back in her day ( will be 60 next year) boys would literally have guns in the back of their trucks on school ground no one thought a thing about it and there were no school shootings. The point of me telling you this is that guns are not new. It is not like they do things by themselves now either.

Here is another thing to you want to talk about assault weapons. First of all the VAST majority of gun deaths are committed with hand guns ( which funny enough are MORE regulated than other guns, but also columbine ( also do not remember but enjoy researching a WIDE range of topics), but anyway was committed with "assault weapons" dead in the middle of the "assault weapons" ban that lasted between 94-04. Congress allowed the ban to lapse nearly 20 years ago and do you know that today are MILLIONS of them. Now reasonablely even if I am wrong and people would hand theirs over do you seriously think a ban would work with THAT many around ( particularly when few shootings are committed with them to begin with.)

Some of the best Christians I know ( some of the last I would expect to raise their voice in anger also carry or at least own guns and I can promise you it may take a LOT for them to raise their voice, but boy if they felt that they ( or others were in danger around them they would also not be afraid to use lethal force if need be. You can be both caring and peaceful and still defend yourself and others.

I remember reading a quote that said Good men are not harmless men a good man is a very dangerous man who has that under voluntiuly control.

Aaron112 · Sep 21, 2023

dogs4thewin said:
Second of all, you are old enough to remember I am not, but my mother says that back in her day ( will be 60 next year) boys would literally have guns in the back of their trucks on school ground no one thought a thing about it and there were no school shootings.

I remember this, or stories from relatives/ neighbors... farmers... etc etc etc ....
Cover up ? all of the school shootings I looked into a few years ago, every one of them for a few years when they were first in the news,
were admittedly associated with bigfarma drugs... they were on or had come off of drugs.

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