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Former Adventist Fellowship - About Ellen White

Adventist Dissident

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I would defer to the comment section of the YouTube video.
Thank-you for your input but this is a Thread about the video and the reaction of the members of the forum. If they want they can post in the video thread if they wish that is their choice but I would really like to hear their view on the matter. What impact does a lecture have on them and their view of SDAism. That is what this forum is about.
 
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Freth

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I converted the video to transcript, which is much easier to peruse than having to watch the hour-long video. Let's get started.

Phil makes several statements that show his hand before he even starts.

She was twelve years old and an impressionable child when her parents became followers of William Miller in 1840.
In 1844, when Adventist expectation was at its very peak, leading up to the great disappointment, Ellen was just a seventeen-year-old girl. And she was subject to fainting spells and already beginning to exhibit an overbearing disposition.
When the great disappointment made it clear that William Miller's predictions were wrong, Ellen began to experience visions. And these experiences always took place in crowded meeting halls and other public places. She had almost two hundred of these seizures.
Her son William C. White described it this way, quoting from him, she would fall helpless to the floor, stop breathing, and yet her heart beat and she would speak. I don't know how she spoke if she really stopped breathing. I gather she didn't. But all of this was very melodramatic. William White also wrote this about his mother's visions, quoting again, the first one I witnessed as a little boy in the meeting house at Roosevelt, New York. Father had given a short talk. Mother had given a short talk. Father prayed, mother prayed, and as she was praying, I heard that shout, glory.

All of this was said in a mocking tone within the first 2 minutes of the video. No evidence given to back his statements whatsoever. That's where I stopped.

Let's put this to rest.
  • One only has to read her writings to know she didn't have an overbearing disposition.
  • The evidence will show that Ellen was not having "seizures".
  • The evidence will show how she spoke even though she stopped breathing.
Actual accounts of people who witnessed the visions of Ellen White.



J. N. Loughborough
I will state some facts relative to the visions. The first time I saw Mrs. E. G. White (formerly Miss Harmon) was in October, 1852. On that day I saw her in a vision that lasted over one hour. Since that time I have had the privilege of seeing her in vision about fifty times. I have been present when physicians have examined her while in this state, and I esteem it a pleasure to bear testimony to what I have seen and know. I trust a narration of the facts in the case may not be carelessly cast aside for the random suppositions of those who have never seen her in this condition.


In passing into vision she gives three enrapturing shouts of "Glory!" which echo and re-echo, the second, and especially the third, fainter, but more thrilling than the first, the voice resembling that of one quite a distance from you, and just going out of hearing. For about four or five seconds she seems to drop down like a person in a swoon, or one having lost his strength; she then seems to be instantly filled with superhuman strength, sometimes rising at once to her feet and walking about the room. There are frequent movements of the hands and arms, pointing to the right or left as her head turns. All these movements are made in a most graceful manner. In whatever position the hand or arm may be placed, it is impossible for anyone to move it. Her eyes are always open, but she does not wink; her head is raised, and she is looking upward, not with a vacant stare, but with a pleasant expression, only differing from the normal in that she appears to be looking intently at some distant object. She does not breathe, yet her pulse beats regularly. Her countenance is pleasant, and the color of her face as florid as in her natural state.


Her condition as to breathing, loss of strength, and being made strong as the angel of God touches her, all agree perfectly with the description given by the prophet Daniel of his own experience in vision when he says: "Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." "For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me. Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, and said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee; be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my Lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.


M. G. Kellogg, M.D.
A description of a vision given in Michigan, May 29, 1853, at a meeting held in Tyrone, Livingston County:


"Sister White was in vision about twenty minutes or half an hour. As she went into vision every one present seemed to feel the power and presence of God, and some of us did indeed feel the Spirit of God resting upon us mightily. We were engaged in prayer and social meeting Sabbath morning at about nine o'clock. Brother White, my father, and Sister White had prayed, and I was praying at the time. There had been no excitement, no demonstrations. We did plead earnestly with God, however, that He would bless the meeting with His presence, and that He would bless the work in Michigan. As Sister White gave that triumphant shout of 'Glory! g-l-o-r-y! g-l-o-r-y!' which you have heard her give so often as she goes into vision, Brother White arose and informed the audience that his wife was in vision. After stating the manner of her visions, and that she did not breathe while in vision, he invited any one who wished to do so to come forward and examine her. Dr. Drummond, a physician, who was also a First-day Adventist preacher, who (before he saw her in vision) had declared her visions to be of mesmeric origin, and that he could give her a vision, stepped forward, and after a thorough examination, turned very pale, and remarked, 'She doesn't breathe!'


"I am quite certain that she did not breathe at that time while in vision, nor in any of several others which she has had when I was present. The coming out of the vision was as marked as her going into it. The first indication we had that the vision was ended, was in her again beginning to breathe. She drew her first breath deep, long, and full, in a manner showing that her lungs had been entirely empty of air. After drawing the first breath, several minutes passed before she drew the second, which filled the lungs precisely as did the first; then a pause of two minutes, and a third inhalation, after which the breathing became natural." Signed, "M. G. Kellogg, M.D., Battle Creek, Mich., Dec. 28, 1890."


F. C. Castle
The following statement is from an individual who witnessed a medical examination of Mrs. White while in vision at Stowe, Vermont, in the summer of 1853. He says:


"A physician was present, and made such examination of her as his wisdom and learning dictated, to find the cause of the manifestation. A lighted candle was held close to her eyes, which were wide open; not a muscle of the eye moved. He then examined her in regard to her pulse, and also in regard to her breathing, and there was no respiration. The result was that he was satisfied that it could not be accounted for on natural or scientific principles." Signed, "F. C. Castle."


D. H. Lamson
The following description relates to an examination made while Mrs. White was in vision, in a meeting held in the home of Elder James White, on Monroe Street, Rochester, N.Y., June 26, 1854:

"I was then seventeen years old. It seems to me I can almost hear those thrilling shouts of 'G-l-o-r-y!' which she uttered. Then she sank back to the floor, not falling, but sinking gently, and was supported in the arms of an attendant. Two physicians came in, an old man and a young man. Brother White was anxious that they should examine Sister White closely, which they did. A looking-glass was brought, and one of them held it over her mouth while she talked; but very soon they gave this up, and said, 'She doesn't breathe.' Then they closely examined her sides, as she spoke, to find some evidence of deep breathing, but they did not find it. As they closed this part of the examination, she arose to her feet, still in vision, holding a Bible high up, turning from passage to passage, quoting correctly, although the eyes were looking upward and away from the book.

"She had a view of the seven last plagues. Then she saw the triumph of the saints, and her shouts of triumph I can seem to hear even now. To these facts I freely testify." Signed, "Elder D. H. Lamson, Hillsdale, Mich., Feb. 8, 1893."


Mr. and Mrs. A. F. Fowler
The following statement relates to an examination made while Mrs. White was in vision in Waldron's Hall, Hillsdale, Mich., in the month of February, 1857.

"We were present when (in February, 1857) Sister E. G. White had a vision in Waldron's Hall, Hillsdale. Dr. Lord made an examination, and said, 'Her heart beats, but there is no breath. There is life, but no action of the lungs; I cannot account for this condition.'" Signed, "A. F. Fowler, Mrs. A. F. Fowler, Hillsdale, Mich., Jan. 1, 1891."


D. T. Bourdeau
"June 28, 1857, I saw Sister Ellen G. White in vision for the first time. I was an unbeliever in the visions; but one circumstance among others that I might mention convinced me that her visions were of God. To satisfy my mind as to whether she breathed or not, I first put my hand on her chest sufficiently long to know that there was no more heaving of the lungs than there would have been had she been a corpse. I then took my hand and placed it over her mouth, pinching her nostrils between my thumb and forefinger, so that it was impossible for her to exhale or inhale air, even if she had desired to do so. I held her thus with my hand about ten minutes, long enough for her to suffocate under ordinary circumstances; she was not in the least affected by this ordeal. Since witnessing this wonderful phenomenon, I have not once been inclined to doubt the divine origin of her visions." Signed, "D. T. Bourdeau, Battle Creek, Mich., Feb. 4, 1891."--The Great Second Advent Movement, by J. N. Loughborough, pp. 204-210.


James White Statement, 1868
"1. She is utterly unconscious of everything transpiring around her, as has been proved by the most rigid tests, but views herself as removed from this world, and in the presence of heavenly beings.

2. She does not breathe. During the entire period of her continuance in vision, which has at different times ranged from fifteen minutes to three hours, there is no breath, as has been repeatedly proved by pressing upon the chest, and by closing the mouth and nostrils.

3. Immediately on entering vision, her muscles become rigid, and joints fixed, so far as any external force can influence them. At the same time her movements and gestures, which are frequent, are free and graceful, and cannot be hindered nor controlled by the strongest person.

4. On coming out of vision, whether in the daytime or a well-lighted room at night, all is total darkness. Her power to distinguish even the most brilliant objects, held within a few inches of the eyes, returns but gradually.


George I. Butler, 1874
For nearly thirty years past these visions have been given with greater or less frequency, and have been witnessed by many, oftentimes by unbelievers as well as those believing them. They generally, but not always, occur in the midst of earnest seasons of religious interest while the Spirit of God is specially present, if those can tell who are in attendance. The time Mrs. White is in this condition has varied from fifteen minutes to one hundred and eighty. During this time the heart and pulse continue to beat, the eyes are always wide open, and seem to be gazing at some far-distant object, and are never fixed on any person or thing in the room. They are always directed upward. They exhibit a pleasant expression. There is no ghastly look or any resemblance of fainting. The brightest light may be suddenly brought near her eyes, or feints made as if to thrust something into the eye, and there is never the slightest wink or change of expression on that account; and it is sometimes hours and even days after she comes out of this condition before she recovers her natural sight. She says it seems to her that she comes back into a dark world, yet her eyesight is in nowise injured by her visions.

"While she is in vision, her breathing entirely ceases. No breath ever escapes her nostrils or lips when in this condition. This has been proved by many witnesses, among them physicians of skill, and themselves unbelievers in the visions, on some occasions being appointed by a public congregation for the purpose. It has been proved many times by tightly holding the nostrils and mouth with the hand, and by putting a looking glass before them so close that any escape of the moisture of the breath would be detected. In this condition she often speaks words and short sentences, yet not the slightest breath escapes. When she goes into this condition, there is no appearance of swooning or faintness, her face retains its natural color, and the blood circulates as usual. Often she loses her strength temporarily and reclines or sits; but at other times she stands up. She moves her arms gracefully, and often her face is lighted up with radiance as though the glory of heaven rested upon her. She is utterly unconscious of everything going on around her while she is in vision, having no knowledge whatever of what is said and done in her presence. A person may pinch her flesh, and do things which would cause great and sudden pain in her ordinary condition, and she will not notice it by the slightest tremor.

"There are none of the disgusting grimaces or contortions which usually attend spiritualist mediums, but calm, dignified, and impressive, her very appearance strikes the beholder with reverence and solemnity. There is nothing fanatical in her appearance. When she comes out of this condition she speaks and writes from time to time what she has seen while in vision; and the supernatural character of these visions is seen even more clearly in what she thus reveals than in her appearance and condition while in vision, for many things have thus been related which it was impossible for her to know in any other way.

"Peculiar circumstances in the lives of individuals, whom she never before had seen in the flesh, and secrets hidden from the nearest acquaintances, have been made known by her when she had no personal knowledge of the parties other than by vision. Often has she been in an audience where she was wholly unacquainted with the individuals composing it, when she would get up and point out person after person whom she never had seen before, in the flesh, and tell them what they had done, and reprove their sins. I might mention many other items of like nature, but space forbids. These things can be proved by any amount of testimony, and we confidently affirm that they are of such a character that they could not be accomplished by deception."--Review and Herald, June 9, 1874.



Conclusion

Phil's presentation (I wouldn't call it a sermon, but it's clearly in a church) is delivered snarkily and with clear bias, which is unbecoming of a Christian, let alone a pastor of a church. Phil shows his hand from the outset—that he didn't do his due diligence. In just two minutes he inserted his own biased opinion into his message and set the tone for the rest of the video.

There are 56 minutes left in the video, which I'm sure would yield some boulder-sized gems.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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I converted the video to transcript, which is much easier to peruse than having to watch the hour-long video. Let's get started.

Phil makes several statements that show his hand before he even starts.
No I think that he shows his hand by showing his buy appearing at a former Adventist fellowship weekend. He's very obvious about what his position is. Not hiding anything.
All of this was said in a mocking tone within the first 2 minutes of the video. No evidence given to back his statements whatsoever. That's where I stopped.
And the problem with that is what......? He's a critic, he's an unbeliever,. he's criticizing he's unbelieving. Did you expect something else?
Let's put this to rest.
  • One only has to read her writings to know she didn't have an overbearing disposition.
I've seen that very much in person and I've seen that in my interactions with other Adventists who get in her writings. Really get into Ellen White the more of a jackass they become.
  • The evidence will show that Ellen was not having "seizures".
Well you either believe it was a dream and a vision or it was something else those are your only two options. He's either lying or she's telling the truth

  • The evidence will show how she spoke even though she stopped breathing.
She did say things while she was in vision
You can't talk without breathing



Actual accounts of people who witnessed the visions of Ellen White.



J. N. Loughborough
I will state some facts relative to the visions. The first time I saw Mrs. E. G. White (formerly Miss Harmon) was in October, 1852. On that day I saw her in a vision that lasted over one hour. Since that time I have had the privilege of seeing her in vision about fifty times. I have been present when physicians have examined her while in this state, and I esteem it a pleasure to bear testimony to what I have seen and know. I trust a narration of the facts in the case may not be carelessly cast aside for the random suppositions of those who have never seen her in this condition.


In passing into vision she gives three enrapturing shouts of "Glory!" which echo and re-echo, the second, and especially the third, fainter, but more thrilling than the first, the voice resembling that of one quite a distance from you, and just going out of hearing. For about four or five seconds she seems to drop down like a person in a swoon, or one having lost his strength; she then seems to be instantly filled with superhuman strength, sometimes rising at once to her feet and walking about the room. There are frequent movements of the hands and arms, pointing to the right or left as her head turns. All these movements are made in a most graceful manner. In whatever position the hand or arm may be placed, it is impossible for anyone to move it. Her eyes are always open, but she does not wink; her head is raised, and she is looking upward, not with a vacant stare, but with a pleasant expression, only differing from the normal in that she appears to be looking intently at some distant object. She does not breathe, yet her pulse beats regularly. Her countenance is pleasant, and the color of her face as florid as in her natural state.


Her condition as to breathing, loss of strength, and being made strong as the angel of God touches her, all agree perfectly with the description given by the prophet Daniel of his own experience in vision when he says: "Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." "For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me. Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, and said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee; be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my Lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.


M. G. Kellogg, M.D.
A description of a vision given in Michigan, May 29, 1853, at a meeting held in Tyrone, Livingston County:


"Sister White was in vision about twenty minutes or half an hour. As she went into vision every one present seemed to feel the power and presence of God, and some of us did indeed feel the Spirit of God resting upon us mightily. We were engaged in prayer and social meeting Sabbath morning at about nine o'clock. Brother White, my father, and Sister White had prayed, and I was praying at the time. There had been no excitement, no demonstrations. We did plead earnestly with God, however, that He would bless the meeting with His presence, and that He would bless the work in Michigan. As Sister White gave that triumphant shout of 'Glory! g-l-o-r-y! g-l-o-r-y!' which you have heard her give so often as she goes into vision, Brother White arose and informed the audience that his wife was in vision. After stating the manner of her visions, and that she did not breathe while in vision, he invited any one who wished to do so to come forward and examine her. Dr. Drummond, a physician, who was also a First-day Adventist preacher, who (before he saw her in vision) had declared her visions to be of mesmeric origin, and that he could give her a vision, stepped forward, and after a thorough examination, turned very pale, and remarked, 'She doesn't breathe!'


"I am quite certain that she did not breathe at that time while in vision, nor in any of several others which she has had when I was present. The coming out of the vision was as marked as her going into it. The first indication we had that the vision was ended, was in her again beginning to breathe. She drew her first breath deep, long, and full, in a manner showing that her lungs had been entirely empty of air. After drawing the first breath, several minutes passed before she drew the second, which filled the lungs precisely as did the first; then a pause of two minutes, and a third inhalation, after which the breathing became natural." Signed, "M. G. Kellogg, M.D., Battle Creek, Mich., Dec. 28, 1890."


F. C. Castle
The following statement is from an individual who witnessed a medical examination of Mrs. White while in vision at Stowe, Vermont, in the summer of 1853. He says:


"A physician was present, and made such examination of her as his wisdom and learning dictated, to find the cause of the manifestation. A lighted candle was held close to her eyes, which were wide open; not a muscle of the eye moved. He then examined her in regard to her pulse, and also in regard to her breathing, and there was no respiration. The result was that he was satisfied that it could not be accounted for on natural or scientific principles." Signed, "F. C. Castle."


D. H. Lamson
The following description relates to an examination made while Mrs. White was in vision, in a meeting held in the home of Elder James White, on Monroe Street, Rochester, N.Y., June 26, 1854:

"I was then seventeen years old. It seems to me I can almost hear those thrilling shouts of 'G-l-o-r-y!' which she uttered. Then she sank back to the floor, not falling, but sinking gently, and was supported in the arms of an attendant. Two physicians came in, an old man and a young man. Brother White was anxious that they should examine Sister White closely, which they did. A looking-glass was brought, and one of them held it over her mouth while she talked; but very soon they gave this up, and said, 'She doesn't breathe.' Then they closely examined her sides, as she spoke, to find some evidence of deep breathing, but they did not find it. As they closed this part of the examination, she arose to her feet, still in vision, holding a Bible high up, turning from passage to passage, quoting correctly, although the eyes were looking upward and away from the book.

"She had a view of the seven last plagues. Then she saw the triumph of the saints, and her shouts of triumph I can seem to hear even now. To these facts I freely testify." Signed, "Elder D. H. Lamson, Hillsdale, Mich., Feb. 8, 1893."


Mr. and Mrs. A. F. Fowler
The following statement relates to an examination made while Mrs. White was in vision in Waldron's Hall, Hillsdale, Mich., in the month of February, 1857.

"We were present when (in February, 1857) Sister E. G. White had a vision in Waldron's Hall, Hillsdale. Dr. Lord made an examination, and said, 'Her heart beats, but there is no breath. There is life, but no action of the lungs; I cannot account for this condition.'" Signed, "A. F. Fowler, Mrs. A. F. Fowler, Hillsdale, Mich., Jan. 1, 1891."


D. T. Bourdeau
"June 28, 1857, I saw Sister Ellen G. White in vision for the first time. I was an unbeliever in the visions; but one circumstance among others that I might mention convinced me that her visions were of God. To satisfy my mind as to whether she breathed or not, I first put my hand on her chest sufficiently long to know that there was no more heaving of the lungs than there would have been had she been a corpse. I then took my hand and placed it over her mouth, pinching her nostrils between my thumb and forefinger, so that it was impossible for her to exhale or inhale air, even if she had desired to do so. I held her thus with my hand about ten minutes, long enough for her to suffocate under ordinary circumstances; she was not in the least affected by this ordeal. Since witnessing this wonderful phenomenon, I have not once been inclined to doubt the divine origin of her visions." Signed, "D. T. Bourdeau, Battle Creek, Mich., Feb. 4, 1891."--The Great Second Advent Movement, by J. N. Loughborough, pp. 204-210.


James White Statement, 1868
"1. She is utterly unconscious of everything transpiring around her, as has been proved by the most rigid tests, but views herself as removed from this world, and in the presence of heavenly beings.

2. She does not breathe. During the entire period of her continuance in vision, which has at different times ranged from fifteen minutes to three hours, there is no breath, as has been repeatedly proved by pressing upon the chest, and by closing the mouth and nostrils.

3. Immediately on entering vision, her muscles become rigid, and joints fixed, so far as any external force can influence them. At the same time her movements and gestures, which are frequent, are free and graceful, and cannot be hindered nor controlled by the strongest person.

4. On coming out of vision, whether in the daytime or a well-lighted room at night, all is total darkness. Her power to distinguish even the most brilliant objects, held within a few inches of the eyes, returns but gradually.


George I. Butler, 1874
For nearly thirty years past these visions have been given with greater or less frequency, and have been witnessed by many, oftentimes by unbelievers as well as those believing them. They generally, but not always, occur in the midst of earnest seasons of religious interest while the Spirit of God is specially present, if those can tell who are in attendance. The time Mrs. White is in this condition has varied from fifteen minutes to one hundred and eighty. During this time the heart and pulse continue to beat, the eyes are always wide open, and seem to be gazing at some far-distant object, and are never fixed on any person or thing in the room. They are always directed upward. They exhibit a pleasant expression. There is no ghastly look or any resemblance of fainting. The brightest light may be suddenly brought near her eyes, or feints made as if to thrust something into the eye, and there is never the slightest wink or change of expression on that account; and it is sometimes hours and even days after she comes out of this condition before she recovers her natural sight. She says it seems to her that she comes back into a dark world, yet her eyesight is in nowise injured by her visions.

"While she is in vision, her breathing entirely ceases. No breath ever escapes her nostrils or lips when in this condition. This has been proved by many witnesses, among them physicians of skill, and themselves unbelievers in the visions, on some occasions being appointed by a public congregation for the purpose. It has been proved many times by tightly holding the nostrils and mouth with the hand, and by putting a looking glass before them so close that any escape of the moisture of the breath would be detected. In this condition she often speaks words and short sentences, yet not the slightest breath escapes. When she goes into this condition, there is no appearance of swooning or faintness, her face retains its natural color, and the blood circulates as usual. Often she loses her strength temporarily and reclines or sits; but at other times she stands up. She moves her arms gracefully, and often her face is lighted up with radiance as though the glory of heaven rested upon her. She is utterly unconscious of everything going on around her while she is in vision, having no knowledge whatever of what is said and done in her presence. A person may pinch her flesh, and do things which would cause great and sudden pain in her ordinary condition, and she will not notice it by the slightest tremor.

"There are none of the disgusting grimaces or contortions which usually attend spiritualist mediums, but calm, dignified, and impressive, her very appearance strikes the beholder with reverence and solemnity. There is nothing fanatical in her appearance. When she comes out of this condition she speaks and writes from time to time what she has seen while in vision; and the supernatural character of these visions is seen even more clearly in what she thus reveals than in her appearance and condition while in vision, for many things have thus been related which it was impossible for her to know in any other way.

"Peculiar circumstances in the lives of individuals, whom she never before had seen in the flesh, and secrets hidden from the nearest acquaintances, have been made known by her when she had no personal knowledge of the parties other than by vision. Often has she been in an audience where she was wholly unacquainted with the individuals composing it, when she would get up and point out person after person whom she never had seen before, in the flesh, and tell them what they had done, and reprove their sins. I might mention many other items of like nature, but space forbids. These things can be proved by any amount of testimony, and we confidently affirm that they are of such a character that they could not be accomplished by deception."--Review and Herald, June 9, 1874.
None of those things prove that she was a prophet


Conclusion

Phil's presentation (I wouldn't call it a sermon, but it's clearly in a church) is delivered snarkily and with clear bias, which is unbecoming of a Christian, let alone a pastor of a church. Phil shows his hand from the outset—that he didn't do his due diligence. In just two minutes he inserted his own biased opinion into his message and set the tone for the rest of the video.

There are 56 minutes left in the video, which I'm sure would yield some boulder-sized gems.
Your conclusion isn't much of a conclusion. Your responses just as much as biased as the people you are criticizing. This conclusion is what I would expect from somebody who was not a supporter. Are you to expect something else is not realistic. It is important that people see how other people view the material. Think he was fair in his presentation. He didn't give her a pro Ellen review that seems to be what you're complaining about. That cannot be expected
 
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Freth

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Another example of bias.

That's the end of the quote. Ellen White claimed that a supernatural being in the form of a young man guided her through these visions. Adventists today refer to this as the spirit of prophecy. Ellen White referred to the spirit as her accompanying angel, which sounds suspiciously like what Scripture refers to as a familiar spirit. And given the complexity of her visions and the influence that she had, you do have to wonder if these were demonic visitations, either Satan or one of his messengers disguised as an angel of light, the way Paul says in 2 Corinthians 11.
I mentioned in the session yesterday that she had crazy eyes, kind of a piercing stare, and she preferred to look heavenward and off to the side rather than directly into the camera lens. You see these pictures of her. She's always got that sideways cocked head with the dreamy sort of look on her face. And even her facial expression, everything about her prophetic words, her mannerisms, and the look on her face, all of it more or less fits the caricature of what you would think the self-important founder of a weird cult might be like. And I have to say, if her visions were not demonic, then it was all simply play acting on her part because her visions are muddled, ambiguous, religious-sounding gibberish, completely lacking in the clarity and authority that comes with divine, true divine inspiration.

We are now 4:50 into the video.
  • Phil thinks that maybe Ellen White had demonic visitations by either Satan or one of his messengers disguised as an angel of light, which then inspired her to write 155 books, about 5,000 periodical articles, and 200 pamphlets—all pointing to God and scripture instead of Satan.
  • Looking off to the side is not evidence of a false prophet, nor evidence that she is a self-important founder of a weird cult.
  • Muddled visions, ambiguous, religious-sounding gibberish, completely lacking in the clarity and authority that comes with divine, true divine inspiration. Did he actually read any of her writings at all? Did he actually read any of the testimonies of the witnesses to her visions?
Conclusion
  • Again, inserting his own opinion into his presentation, despite evidence to the contrary.
  • All someone has to do is pick up any of her writings and read. Phil's assertions would be shown to be false.
 
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Freth

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And the problem with that is what......?

I think I explained my position clearly in my two posts. Phil's presentation on Ellen is ill informed, poorly researched and completely biased.

My recommendation to the reader of this thread is to do your own research. Instead of watching a video by a biased third party, go to the source and read it for yourself. Then come to your own conclusions about who Ellen White was. All of her writings are free to read.
 
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H&TR

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I converted the video to transcript, which is much easier to peruse than having to watch the hour-long video. Let's get started.

Phil makes several statements that show his hand before he even starts.






All of this was said in a mocking tone within the first 2 minutes of the video. No evidence given to back his statements whatsoever. That's where I stopped.

Let's put this to rest.
  • One only has to read her writings to know she didn't have an overbearing disposition.
  • The evidence will show that Ellen was not having "seizures".
  • The evidence will show how she spoke even though she stopped breathing.
Actual accounts of people who witnessed the visions of Ellen

Thank you Freth.
Enjoyed the "product review" or like a restaurant's appetizer review . Will re read the quotes.

Since the breath/spirit belongs to God and goes back to God (at death Ecc 12:7) then if a prophet or messenger is with God in vision, then is it like God took her/his breath away from the body to His presence in direct communication.?!? Something to Ponder.
 
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tall73

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My recommendation to the reader of this thread is to do your own research. Instead of watching a video by a biased third party, go to the source and read it for yourself. Then come to your own conclusions about who Ellen White was. All of her writings are free to read.

Sure, folks should read Early Writings:

 
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Adventist Dissident

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Another example of bias.




We are now 4:50 into the video.
  • Phil thinks that maybe Ellen White had demonic visitations by either Satan or one of his messengers disguised as an angel of light, which then inspired her to write 155 books, about 5,000 periodical articles, and 200 pamphlets—all pointing to God and scripture instead of Satan.
She does say that, so you have to ask the question. Who is that? I don't know? I cannot tell it is from the Lord. What I think you need to take away from this is, weather you believe or don't believe the subject of her being a prophet is highly subjective. It is not as locktight as the EGW'er would like you to believe. there is room for discussion.
  • Looking off to the side is not evidence of a false prophet, nor evidence that she is a self-important founder of a weird cult.
  • Muddled visions, ambiguous, religious-sounding gibberish, completely lacking in the clarity and authority that comes with divine, true divine inspiration. Did he actually read any of her writings at all? Did he actually read any of the testimonies of the witnesses to her visions?
Conclusion

Again, inserting his own opinion into his presentation, despite evidence to the contrary.
His own opinion is what the lecture is about. you are expecting something that is not reasonable. Why would you expect a skeptic to be supportive and not be critical? That is litteral what they do. change you expectation. you don't get softballs all the time.
  • All someone has to do is pick up any of her writings and read. Phil's assertions would be shown to be false.
I think it is a matter of what you read there are some things that are good and some that are crazy.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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I think I explained my position clearly in my two posts. Phil's presentation on Ellen is ill informed, poorly researched and completely biased.

My recommendation to the reader of this thread is to do your own research. Instead of watching a video by a biased third party, go to the source and read it for yourself. Then come to your own conclusions about who Ellen White was. All of her writings are free to read.
actually he was well prepared, and it is you who are not informed. I have read thosand of pages on this topic about 10,000 i was amazed at how accurate he was.
 
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BobRyan

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I converted the video to transcript, which is much easier to peruse than having to watch the hour-long video. Let's get started.

Phil makes several statements that show his hand before he even starts.


All of this was said in a mocking tone within the first 2 minutes of the video. No evidence given to back his statements whatsoever. That's where I stopped.
good points.

Wow "another" all-Ellen-White-all-the-time topic thread! Who would have guessed.

I saw a lot of character assassination in how Phil was spinning stories in that 2 minutes, but very few facts and he seemed determined to contradict his own false accusations.

I was reminded that at the trial of Christ - many false witnesses were called - but they tended to contradict each other.

I have seen people have seizures.
I have even been part of a medical team that induced them for people with severe psychological disorders when I worked on staff for a mental institution in my teens.

I can assure you -- someone having a seizure does not speak with any clarity, does not see heaven, does not speak without breathing ... and I am fairly certain that humans have been having actual seizures long before the 1800's. The idea that nobody knew one when they saw one in the 1800's pure fiction.

Phil had a difficult time sustaining the string of accusations that he made in the first 2 minutes without contradicting himself. He presents himself as some kind of authority on "what a prophet looked like" when they were having a vision according to the Bible - yet gave not one Bible text to support his claims. His argument seemed to be more on the lines "I make these statements with strong conviction" and less on "This is what the Bible says".

In any case - we have seen this sort of thing before.


the video if you click on it has actual section in the comments where the video is divided into chapters. it makes it easy to watch and bounce around.

I am in particular agreement with that last part of that statement.
 
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tall73

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actually he was well prepared, and it is you who are not informed. I have read thosand of pages on this topic about 10,000 i was amazed at how accurate he was.
I think he got a lot of it right. Obviously you don't think he got all of it right because you posted on the youtube comments on several saying he was wrong.

And he did come across with a few needless shots that were not really supported.

I also thought, for those who watched far enough, his greatest commandment comment missed her contextual statement of "in the decalogue.".
 
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tall73

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do you really expect people not to bring this up? n about.

Of course he expects it to come up. It is in the fundamental beliefs. And besides, Bob shows up for all the Ellen White threads in this section!
 
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tall73

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I just cannot explain a few things. like How does a person go from being ready for Jesus to come to willfully deceiving people that is a 180 degree turn. It is still hard for me to get a grasp on that.

She never could believe that Miller's message was wrong, even though it directly contradicted the words of Jesus from start to finish:

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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She never could believe that Miller's message was wrong, even though it directly contradicted the words of Jesus from start to finish:

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

During the time of the 1844, the great disappointment EGW was not an Adventist, she was a Methodist, she was 17 years old and the SDA church did not form until almost 20 years later in 1863. She talks about these scriptures in many of her books, openly admits Miller misunderstood what it meant by the sanctuary being cleansed in the prophecy, either you do not know a lot about EGW, this is fairly basic, or are trying to be intentionally deceitful.
 
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tall73

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During the time of the 1844 great disappointment EGW was not an Adventist, she was a Methodist, she was 17 years old and the SDA church did not form until almost 20 years later. She talks about these scriptures in many of her books, openly admits they misunderstood what it meant by the sanctuary being cleansed in the prophecy, either you do not know a lot about EGW, this is fairly basic, or are trying to be internally deceitful .

No, I am afraid I do know a lot about Ellen White. And I will make a thread discussing the point. She said Miller was preaching a "heavenly" message, and that God designed to test them.

Since you have freely admitted you have only started reading one Ellen White book, you might want to withhold judgment.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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No, I am afraid I do know a lot about Ellen White. And I will make a thread discussing the point. She said Miller was preaching a "heavenly" message, and that God designed to test them.

Since you have freely admitted you have only started reading one Ellen White book, you might want to withhold judgment.
You’re quoting out of context and you know it.
 
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tall73

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You’re quoting out of context and you know it.

I started another thread on the topic so as to not take the focus off the topic here of the video.


 
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