Revelation 19/Armageddon is NOT the second coming.

I know that it has been traditionally taught that it is by virtually all eschatalogical positions for hundreds if not thousands of years, but it simply does not fit the rest of the bible for how the second coming of Christ is said to go.

Let's examine some scripture regarding the Day of the Lord/Second Coming, as this realization I've been pouring over for months has reshaped my eschatology from believing as pretrib and most pre-wrath do of a rapture and then a second coming at Revelation 19, to a single second coming like post-trib, but not at Revelation 19.

First let's look at the Revelation 19 passage

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

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First I want to point out that there are people in heaven, MUCH people in heaven, they are not identified as souls but people. First off even if they are souls, this explicitly shatters any doctrine of soul sleep, or that people don't go to heaven at all, and just get resurrected on the New Earth. They are people, they are conscious and they are praising God. This is also after the destruction of Babylon, which is after the 7th bowl, but before the supposed second coming that most people put the second coming at.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

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in previous passages such as Revelation 7, the saints praised not only God that sat on the throne (God the Father), but also the Lamb (Jesus), they were 2 distinct people and both addressed. Here only 1 is addressed. I propose it is because the Lamb is already on Earth, cleaning house.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

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So here they refer to the Lamb, but they aren't addressing Him directly or worshipping Him. It's like the Elephant NOT in the room. We will also get to this Marriage Supper of the Lamb. As if the Lamb is not in Heaven at this time, as I do not believe He is during this passage, then the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is NOT some extravagant feast in heaven as is commonly taught by pretrib. But no description of feasting is given in scripture...... until later, and you'll see, its not what you have been taught most likely.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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First, we finally see the Lamb AFTER heaven opened, and where was John? He was in heaven. He was not on Earth looking up at the heavens opening up and watching Jesus ride Pegasus down from Heaven. He was in Heaven watching the celebration of Babylon's destruction and the worship of God that sat on the Throne. I believe what John saw, was Jesus already on Earth.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

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His vesture is already dipped in blood, we will show where this blood came from in another passage regarding the second coming, and a hint, no it is NOT symbolic of the blood He shed for us, no it is NOT the blood of the tribulation saints magically transferred to His robe. The bible is explicit of who's blood it is and where it came from and why it is on His robe (I'll show it from Isaiah 63)

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

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Again, explicitly thrashing the idea that saints do not go to heaven at any point but just soul sleep. These are the saints, the bride of Christ, described in the same way as previously in fine white linen. These are also saints in bodies, riding horses. Not souls or spirits. They're now on Earth again, they WERE in heaven.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

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Here we address what the marriage supper of the lamb is, it is a slaughter at Armageddon, and the feasting is by the carrion birds.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

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The second coming of Jesus is on a day nobody knows, not even Jesus Himself (Mark 13:32), only God the Father, here Antichrist has an army gathered ready to meet Jesus. This is not an unknown day, this is something they prepared for.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

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So there is the supposed second coming passage. Now let's look at where the second coming is described elsewhere in the bible, starting with Acts 1

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

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He went up in a cloud, He will come on a cloud, not a horse.

Matthew 24

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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So, it will be like lightning, like the radiance of the sun going east to west, but the sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars will fall., He'll come in the clouds, and HE will send the angels with a trumpet (not angels blowing trumpets). NONE of these match Revelation 19. None at all.
1. a horse not a cloud
2. the earth dwellers are prepared to fight Him not mourning
3. no trumpet
4. no celestial signs of the sun moon and stars
5. the only thing that kind of matches is that the saints are gathered to follow Him, however they were already just in Heaven now on Earth.

But let's keep going, let's look at where Jesus drew this passage of Matthew 24 from, Zechariah

Zechariah 9

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

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Here's the details that are like Matthew 24, that God will be seen over them (and Jesus is referring to Himself as God in the Olivet discourse, explicitly using Zechariah 9, doing things that are attributed to the Lord God), that His coming is like lightning, that Jesus will blow a trumpet, and that His people will be gathered, Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 also refers to this, and the lifting up of God's people into the sky is coming from Zechariah 9 lifting His people up to display like an Ensign over His land (an Ensign is a kind of flag that is displayed above a ship to show its nationality, so Jesus is lifting up His people into the sky, to display them to people on the Earth as "these are MY people", think of Revelation 3:9, this is how the synagogue of Satan worships at Philadelphia's feet (not worshiping the church of Philadelphia, but worshiping below the feet of the Church gathered with Jesus, they are worshiping Jesus).

But here's a thing that conflicts with Revelation 19. Armageddon is NORTH of the Mount of Olives.
Zechariah 9 says He goes south.

I'll continue this with more passages from Isaiah next post

Isaiah 34

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

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I don't see ANY of these details in Revelation 19, but there's the stars falling and heavens rolling up like a scroll, similar to Matthew 24, and Revelation 6 at the 6th seal.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

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Idumea and Bozrah are places south of Jerusalem, not north like Armageddon. So in agreement with Zechariah 9, the Lord returns, and then goes south.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

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The Day of the Lord is used interchangably with a year, it does not have to be a literal 24 hour day. It is a figure of speech. The Day of the Lord takes actual time. Yes Jesus could slaughter all the people in Idumea and Bozrah instantly in under a day, but He chooses not to. He chooses a far more personal approach, and drags it out, because it is justice and vengeance.

Isaiah 62

10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.

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I just want to point out how incredible this is, you see, the East gate of the Temple Mount, the Golden gate, was walled up by stones by the Muslims, in this verse, the way for Messiah is being prepared and they remove the stones from the gates. This was written a long time before the gate was walled up.

11 Behold, the Lord hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

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Let's be clear, this is the end of the age, not some historical passage, and let's be clear, this is Jesus, their salvation is a person, and that it isn't some instantaneous nuke at His second coming, but there is work set before Him.

12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the Lord: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

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Now continuing this passage into
Isaiah 63

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

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First, He is coming from Edom and Bozrah, not Heaven, these are places south of Jerusalem, in agreement with Zechariah 9 and Isaiah 34, not Revelation 19. Second He is already covered in blood, like Revelation 19, and the blood is from the enemies He has tread down, the people who weren't with Him but against Him. Third, note that Jesus says He was alone. the saints were not with Him. He had no army with Him. It was just Him, waging war by Himself, a very personal vengeance. You will have to come to accept that the very Lamb of God who sacrificed Himself on the cross to atone for our sins because He loves us, also personally slaughters many many people (also because He loves us. these people murdered and persecuted the saints), and soaks His clothes in their blood. He's not just commanding others to do His wrath, He is very personally, physically slaughtering people. In Matthew 24 He describes hacking up servants of His that fell away into pieces. He is loving and forgiving, but also very severe.
Finally again the day and year are used interchangeably. This doesn't happen in just 24 hours. It doesn't have to happen in literally a year either. It's just time.


Now, in conclusion, if you still believe Revelation 19 is Jesus coming down from Heaven on a white horse and going north to Armageddon, where do you place Zechariah 9, Isaiah 34, and Isaiah 62-63? Why doesn't Revelation 19 match with any of the details of Matthew 24 or Acts 1?
How do you account for a period of time when Jesus is on the Earth alone drenching His clothes in blood from Isaiah 63?

Sorn said:

There is a lot there, too much to respond to in 1 post, i'm still reading it but 1 thing i'll point out:
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Here we address what the marriage supper of the lamb is, it is a slaughter at Armageddon, and the feasting is by the carrion birds. "
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This IS NOT the marriage feast, where Christ joins with Israel, His bride. The passage you quote is God inviting the animals and birds to feast on the dead bodies of the enemy, it is a supper for them, ANOTHER supper, NOT the feast for the the Lord Jesus & all those with Him.

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That is what you have been taught.
It is not what is in the text.

Sorn said:

Yes, it is, its literally what the text says.

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no it's not, it doesn't say they were feasting in Heaven. That's part of the point. the Lamb is not in Heaven in that passage. The bride goes to join the bridegroom on Earth.

Compare:
Revelation 5

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

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Revelation 6

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

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now compare
Revelation 19

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

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The Lamb does not show up as if He's actually there, until the heavens open up.

the wedding supper is announced, and a blessing to all called to it, and they speak about the bride in heaven now being ready, but the bridegroom is not revealed until the heavens open up, because the bridegroom has been on Earth, getting bloody.

again, I ask, where do you place Isaiah 63 if Revelation 19 is the second coming? Isaiah 63 has Him coming from the south from Edom. Armageddon is to the north, and other passages have Jesus come from Heaven and then go south, not north.
Isaiah 63 explains where the blood on His raiment comes from, and explains that He was alone when treading the winepress of His wrath.

That cannot fit into a system where Revelation 19 is the second coming. Because Revelation 19 has Him already bloodied, and never alone.

Sorn said:

Here is one example:

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Yes I'm aware, Nelson still clings onto some old pretribulation holdover beliefs. But the bible doesn't have Jesus coming down and then back up and then back down again. The bible has Jesus coming and establishing His kingdom. I had that holdover until the Spirit just asked me one question to help me learn "where was John when the heavens opened up?"

It changed things for me. Post trib is right that Jesus does not divide the second coming into two comings from heaven. It is one second coming, it has more events in it but once He comes from Heaven He does not go back up.

It's just earlier than Revelation 19. The signs Jesus gave preceding His second coming match the 6th seal, and the 7th seal silence, I believe at least though admittedly it's surmising, the silence is because Jesus leaves Heaven at that time. The 6th seal He's on the clouds but does not leave, the heavens are open. This is apparent because the saints are there before the throne of God, but so is Jesus, so Jesus did not outright leave Heaven yet.

Isaiah 63 made way more sense once I understood that Jesus comes to earth, and then wages war all by Himself during the wrath of God, and then the saints come back to Him. Revelation 19's omission of worshiping Jesus also makes more sense that way, as we worship God on the throne, God the Father, and yes, 1 Thessalonians 4 "thus we will always be present with the Lord" we're still with the Lord, we are with the Father, while the Son is cleaning house. But if Jesus goes back to heaven after the rapture, then there is never a point in time when Jesus is on the Earth alone to fulfill Isaiah 63.

However there is one final time that Jesus goes to heaven after the second coming.

1 Corinthians 15

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

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I believe this to be after the Millennium and after the GWT of Judgement, when death has been destroyed. Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father.

Douggg said:

I don't think pretrib teaches a extravagant feast in heaven. Some events are in heaven, but not the feast.

I will compare common events associated with marriage events with events of the scriptures.

Before the wedding:
bridal shower - an event which the bride receives gifts to be used after she is married.
in heaven biblical event - the bema seat of Christ, rewards given to the raptured/resurrected saints.

bride preparation - dressed in white wedding gown.
in heaven biblical event - fine linen, white and clean, the righteousness of the saints,

the marriage - bride and groom become one
in heaven biblical event - union of bride on white horses and bride on white horse

descend to earth for the marriage supper.

the marriage supper - feast takes place after the marriage
On earth biblical event - feast on the bodies of the armies gathered to make war against Jesus.

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Revelation 19 is the Second Comiing events as Revelation 19:17-18 matches with the Ezekiel 39:17-20 description of the supper of God. God provides the supper.

Who is this speaking in Ezekiel 39:22, who sets his glory among the heathen?

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Have you ever read this verse?

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

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The Gog/Magog event takes place while Israel is at rest. So Gog/Magog cannot be the Armageddon event that will take place at the end of the 7 years.

Ezekiel 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Gog/Magog - then the 7 years - then Armageddon and Jesus's return to set his glory among the heathen (the nations). All in Ezekiel 39. Infallible.

Second Coming is Ezekiel 39:17-29.

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Most pretrib I've ever talked to describe the wedding supper of the lamb being some extravagant feast taking place in heaven before the second coming.

I mean I agree that the end of Ezekiel 39 aligns with Armageddon. What I don't agree with is that Ezekiel 38 takes place prior to Antichrist but I see it as Antichrist's invasion of Israel. The belief in a Roman antichrist is what prevents people from seeing it as another reference to Antichrist.

But I hold that Antichrist is going to fulfill all titles and descriptions of him through the bible, that means, Assyrian, King of Babylon, of the people who destroyed the temple in 70AD, a little horn arising from one of the divided kingdoms of Javan after its first king dies, and the God of his fathers will be the true God that he will not regard. He is somehow going to have to fit all of those even when they seemingly conflict. Just like Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but called out of Egypt

Sorn said:

Jesus going back to heaven for a very short time prior to his returning again does not preclude Him being on earth alone in one of his initial visits. They are not mutually exclusive. I don;t see how make that conclusion.

The 2nd coming would be like someone moving house, a process that very often consists of several trips to do things, clean, renovate, move stuff before the final and permanent move. Its one process, 'moving house' but can and often does consist of several trips within a relatively short time.

Also, once Jesus 'moves in permanently', or at least for 1000 years, I don't see any reason as to why He could not return to Heaven now and then for some reason, and for very short periods. Its not like He will have to make every single decision or action here, He will have the apostles and patriarchs of the 12 tribes to assist, otherwise they are just figureheads and will be bored silly.
I mean He may stay here all 1000 years but we shouldn't limit Him, if He wants to visit Heaven, i won't stand in His way He is still the creator and
there's probably lots in Heaven we have no idea about.
Once the Jewish kingdom is in place & the earth cleaned up from whatever destruction it experienced and Jesus establishes His authority and Govt, the place will most likely run itself except for some occasional stuff the will need His direct involvement, you know the iron rod kind of stuff, which would kind of imply that now and then a country will get up to some no good and require a chastisement etc perhaps.

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I just moved. We packed all our things, sold the house, closed the deal on the new house on the drive across the country, and our stuff is coming to us today. 1 trip, but we sent our belongings elsewhere to catch up with us later.

Sorn said:

Well done, in your case 1 process but several events. Many thousands, including myself usually do it in several trips closely spaced together, just depends on the individual circumstances.

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kinda had to be that way when we were moving not across town but across country.
Jesus is coming across well, the universe, from Heaven to Earth, and we, seem to be His possessions that he sends elsewhere with His father while He does the move until He is ready for us.

That's what I see, or they'd be worshipping the Lamb in Revelation 19.

Douggg said:

The main thing with Ezekiel 39 is that you get the framework.

Gog/Magog - then the 7 years - then Armageddon and Jesus's return.

Okay, from that framework start fitting the Antichrist, the great tribulation, the two witnesses, Satan's demise, the fall of Mystery Babylon the Great,..... everything into it.

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Nowhere in the text do they insert a gap between Gog/Magog and Antichrist, instead God rhetorically asks if Gog is Antichrist (Ezekiel 38:17), and it's Gog's armies that are destroyed in Ezekiel 39. The sacrifice for Ezekiel 39:17 is the armies of Magog.

Douggg said:

There is not a gap between Gog/Magog and the the Antichrist person. Right after Gog/Magog, the little horn, as the prince who shall come, brings his EU army into the middle east.

The Jews at that time will perceive him to be their long-awaited messiah. And he is anointed the King of Israel. The Antichrist (as the newly anointed King of Israel), acting in that role, confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. Being the Antichrist is only for the time, the Jews hold him to be their messiah, King of Israel.

That will end when he reveals himself to be the man of sin, about 3 years into the 7 years.

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Gog might be the Assyrian, but not the Antichrist.

Being the Antichrist, will be the third stage of the little horn person on his path to destruction.

(1) little horn > (2) the prince who shall come > (3) the Antichrist > (4) the revealed man of sin > (5) the beast

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Prime eisegesis. Inserting the EU where the scripture says nothing about the EU, and the King of Israel

God rhetorically asks if Gog is Antichrist. Because that's who God warned about repeatedly through the prophets. Through Zechariah, through Daniel, through Micah, through Isaiah, and through Ezekiel.