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Is aborting a baby murder?

tonychanyt

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Exodus 20:13 New International Version:
You shall not murder.​

LXX:
Οὐ φονεύσεις [G5407].​

Is aborting a baby murder?

The author of the Didache (1st century AD) thought so, Didache 2:
2 ου φονευσεις [G5407], ου μοιχευσεις, ου παιδοφθορησεις, ου πορνευσεις, ου κλεψεις, ου μαγευσεις, ου φαρμακευσεις, ου **φονευσεις τεκνον** εν φθορα ουδε γεννηθεν αποκτενεις.​

not you will murder , not you will do adultry , not you will do child sex, not you will do illicit sex, not you will steal , not you will do magic, not you will do sorcery , not you will murder child to destruction neither newly begotten in the womb you will kill.​

Lightfoot translated the Greek into the English "abortion":

{Thou shalt do no murder, thou shalt not commit adultery,} thou shalt not corrupt boys, thou shalt not commit fornication, {thou shalt not steal,} thou shalt not deal in magic, thou shalt do no sorcery, thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born,​

Elsewhere in Numbers 5:
27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.​

Did God cause abortion in this case?

I think the issue is more complex than simply the two extreme positions of pro-life and pro-choice. See When does soul life begin in the womb?.
 
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The Liturgist

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Exodus 20:13 New International Version:
You shall not murder.​

LXX:
Οὐ φονεύσεις [G5407].​

Is aborting a baby murder?

The author of the Didache (1st century AD) thought so, Didache 2:
2 ου φονευσεις [G5407], ου μοιχευσεις, ου παιδοφθορησεις, ου πορνευσεις, ου κλεψεις, ου μαγευσεις, ου φαρμακευσεις, ου **φονευσεις τεκνον** εν φθορα ουδε γεννηθεν αποκτενεις.​

not you will murder , not you will do adultry , not you will do child sex, not you will do illicit sex, not you will steal , not you will do magic, not you will do sorcery , not you will murder child to destruction neither newly begotten in the womb you will kill.​

Lightfoot translated the Greek into the English "abortion":

{Thou shalt do no murder, thou shalt not commit adultery,} thou shalt not corrupt boys, thou shalt not commit fornication, {thou shalt not steal,} thou shalt not deal in magic, thou shalt do no sorcery, thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born,​

Elsewhere in Numbers 5:
27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.​

Did God cause abortion in this case?

I think the issue is more complex than simply the two extreme positions of pro-life and pro-choice.

I myself am firmly of the view that abortion is in all cases murder, with the abortionist guilty of first degree murder and a woman who voluntarily and without coercion, for vain and selfish reasons, elects to have an abortion, being guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.
 
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tonychanyt

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I myself am firmly of the view that abortion is in all cases murder, with the abortionist guilty of first degree murder and a woman who voluntarily and without coercion, for vain and selfish reasons, elects to have an abortion, being guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.
Define abortion.
 
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trophy33

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I think that many discussions about this topic are frequently struggling with the paradox of the heap.

In some later stages, the immorality of such act is more clear. But the more we move to the initial stages, the more subjective and vague it becomes.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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God is the Creator of life, He can give it and He can take it. Every human life is made in the image of God and therefore sacred. None of us has the right to end a human life without that human life's consent for this simple reason.
The life of a human begins at conception, there is no debate about it in biology. You and I have been a single cell once. You didn't evolve from a single cell, you were a single cell.

If we feel the need to make it more complicated we should seriously ask ourselves if it is because we don't like the implications.
 
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trophy33

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God is the Creator of life, He can give it and He can take it. Every human life is made in the image of God and therefore sacred. None of us has the right to end a human life without that human life's consent for this simple reason.
The life of a human begins at conception, there is no debate about it in biology. You and I have been a single cell once. You didn't evolve from a single cell, you were a single cell.

If we feel the need to make it more complicated we should seriously ask ourselves if it is because we don't like the implications.
Many interesting presuppositions.

"Every human life is made in the image of God and therefore sacred"
- any proof of this?

"None of us has the right to end a human life without that human life's consent for this simple reason."
- any proof of this?

"You and I have been a single cell once. You didn't evolve from a single cell, you were a single cell."
- how many cells is exactly needed for the whole to be a sacred human and not just bunch of cells?

I am not opposing you, just digging deeper into how this all connects together, in your mind.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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"Every human life is made in the image of God and therefore sacred"
- any proof of this?
Genesis 1:26
"None of us has the right to end a human life without that human life's consent for this simple reason."
- any proof of this?
It should be common sense that you can't kill or destroy what belongs to someone else. God owns everything He made, so the default position is that you don't have the right to kill any creature. But God explicitely gave us the permission to eat plants and animals, the only thing He never allowed us to kill is other humans. On the contrary, long before Moses God gave a general command for all mankind prohibiting us from "shedding human blood" (Genesis 9:6). This is talking about the species "human" (also known as homo sapiens), which contradicts the claim of many pro-choicers that only "persons" are sacred.
"You and I have been a single cell once. You didn't evolve from a single cell, you were a single cell."
- how many cells is exactly needed for the whole to be a sacred human and not just bunch of cells?
A single cell. Even when you are 50 years old you are still "a bunch of cells", I have never understood how anyone could take that argument seriously. Humans are cells.
That a single cell is needed for it to be a whole human can easily be demonstrated by the fact that this single cell will naturally grow into an adult human. This single cell contains all the information needed to form your limbs, organs, face and brain.

In other words, the zygote is a stage of development in a human life, just like embryo, infant, baby, teenager, adult etc.
 
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tonychanyt

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tonychanyt

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I think that many discussions about this topic are frequently struggling with the paradox of the heap.

In some later stages, the immorality of such act is more clear. But the more we move to the initial stages, the more subjective and vague it becomes.
See When does soul life begin in the womb? and follow up there :)
 
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The Liturgist

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Define abortion.
Killing a person who has been conceived, whether still embryonic or ready to be born, while still in the womb, although there are also edge cases like partial birth abortion, which is infanticide, however, I regard the “morning after pill” as being every bit as morally bankrupt. Life is sacred from the very moment of conception.
 
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trophy33

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Genesis 1:26
Can you please quote it and underline the exact words that say "Every human life is made in the image of God and therefore sacred"?

It should be common sense that you can't kill or destroy what belongs to someone else. God owns everything He made, so the default position is that you don't have the right to kill any creature. But God explicitely gave us the permission to eat plants and animals, the only thing He never allowed us to kill is other humans. On the contrary, long before Moses God gave a general command for all mankind prohibiting us from "shedding human blood" (Genesis 9:6). This is talking about the species "human" (also known as homo sapiens), which contradicts the claim of many pro-choicers that only "persons" are sacred.
Oh yeah... the problem with the common sense. Everyone has a bit different one. Anyway, God commanded to kill humans many times in the Old Testament, so I am not sure what you mean by your statements.

A single cell. Even when you are 50 years old you are still "a bunch of cells", I have never understood how anyone could take that argument seriously. Humans are cells.
That a single cell is needed for it to be a whole human can easily be demonstrated by the fact that this single cell will naturally grow into an adult human. This single cell contains all the information needed to form your limbs, organs, face and brain.

In other words, the zygote is a stage of development in a human life, just like embryo, infant, baby, teenager, adult etc.
Even your skin cells have your DNA. Does that mean that if you scratch your hand and pull those cells off, you are killing a sacred human? If not (I suppose that "no" is your answer), then why, where is the distinct line between those cells and early embryonic cells, regarding humanity.
 
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tonychanyt

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Killing a person who has been conceived, whether still embryonic or ready to be born, while still in the womb, although there are also edge cases like partial birth abortion, which is infanticide, however, I regard the “morning after pill” as being every bit as morally bankrupt. Life is sacred from the very moment of conception.
See When does soul life begin in the womb? and follow up there :)
 
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tonychanyt

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How are his credentials an answer to "why"?
Good question. I know I am saying this a lot to you but I really mean it every time :)

I weigh every piece of evidence. I put some weight on his translation because of his credentials. As to "why", I have no answer. I would like to ask Mr. Lightfoot himself. Unfortunately, he is no longer available. One of these days, we may have a ChatGPT version of him, then we can ask him :)
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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Can you please quote it and underline the exact words that say "Every human life is made in the image of God and therefore sacred"?
"Then God said: Let us make humans in our image, after our likeness." How can this mean that not every human life is made in the image of God? Or are you questioning that being made in the image of God is something sacred?
Oh yeah... the problem with the common sense. Everyone has a bit different one. Anyway, God commanded to kill humans many times in the Old Testament, so I am not sure what you mean by your statements.
As I said, God is the Creator of life. He can give it and He can take it. He can command to take it. Nobody else can make any such decisions. Or would you like to claim that you have the same authority as God?
Even your skin cells have your DNA. Does that mean that if you scratch your hand and pull those cells off, you are killing a sacred human? If not (I suppose that "no" is your answer), then why, where is the distinct line between those cells and early embryonic cells, regarding humanity.
I'll just copy/paste what I already wrote: "That a single cell is needed for it to be a whole human can easily be demonstrated by the fact that this single cell will naturally grow into an adult human. This single cell contains all the information needed to form your limbs, organs, face and brain."

If your skin cells naturally grow into a human adult we can talk about it again :)
 
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