Church of England has a problem with the Lord’s Prayer

Dale · Jul 9, 2023

At a General Synod of the Church of England, the Archbishop of York, Stephen Cottrell, has said that the first two words of the Lord’s Prayer are “problematic.” The Lord’s Prayer opens with the words “Our Father.” This is apparently too patriarchal and gives too much credit to men.

Archbishop Cottrell has some supporters for his stand.

<< Rev Christina Rees CBE, a former General Synod member, founder member of the Archbishops’ Council, agreed that calling God ‘father’ was "hugely problematic". >> (The Guardian)

The Church of England only has two Archbishops, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the Archbishop of York. Stephen Cottrell is number two in the C of E hierarchy.

Personally, I am baffled that anyone would try to rewrite the words of Jesus recorded in the Gospels. Jesus knew what He was doing, and we should follow the Gospels.

A rather neutral article in The Guardian:
Lord’s Prayer opening may be ‘problematic’, says archbishop

A more critical article:
Outrage as Church of England Archbishop claims saying 'Our Father' is 'problematic'

PloverWing · Jul 9, 2023

You might be interested in this thread: Archbishop of York - Lord's Prayer is problematic because of the word Father

The Liturgist · Jul 9, 2023

Dale said:
At a General Synod of the Church of England, the Archbishop of York, Stephen Cottrell, has said that the first two words of the Lord’s Prayer are “problematic.” The Lord’s Prayer opens with the words “Our Father.” This is apparently too patriarchal and gives too much credit to men.

Archbishop Cottrell has some supporters for his stand.

<< Rev Christina Rees CBE, a former General Synod member, founder member of the Archbishops’ Council, agreed that calling God ‘father’ was "hugely problematic". >> (The Guardian)

The Church of England only has two Archbishops, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the Archbishop of York. Stephen Cottrell is number two in the C of E hierarchy.

Personally, I am baffled that anyone would try to rewrite the words of Jesus recorded in the Gospels. Jesus knew what He was doing, and we should follow the Gospels.

A rather neutral article in The Guardian:
Lord’s Prayer opening may be ‘problematic’, says archbishop

A more critical article:
Outrage as Church of England Archbishop claims saying 'Our Father' is 'problematic'

That is horrifying. For the time being at least, the 1662 BCP and Common Worship, which are the two authorized liturgical texts in the C of E, both contain the Lord’s Prayer in the traditional form.

Fortunately the C of E still has conservative bishops and conservative clergy and parishes on both the Anglo-Catholic / High Church and Low Church / Evangelical side, parishes like the extreme high church traditionalist St. Magnus the Martyr and All Saints Margaret Street and the evangelical Holy Trinity Brompton, and these parishes, as well as the dioceses with conservative bishops, will never accept this change. Indeed there is even a group of Anglo Catholic bishops called The Society, which was organized by Forward in Faith, an Anglo Catholic lay association, the goal of which is to preserve an all-male Apostolic Succession in the Church of England despite the recent introduction of female bishops.

Now, one of the strengths of the C of E has been its ability to preserve unity despite having outlier members who have eccentric beliefs, but if the view of the new Archbishop of York were to become more mainstream, and what is especially worrying in this case is that historically the Archbishop of York has been a voice of moderation in the Church of England, it could actually cause a schism. It would be arrogant of the C of E to consider itself immune to schism simply because for the moment it still enjoys the status of an Estanlished Church; if a major schism broke out in the C of E it would probably lead to Disestablishment and then the church would have to sort out the messy business itself. And as the schisms in the Episcopal Church USA and the United Methodist Church show, such schisms can be extremely messy (conversely, the PCUSA and the ELCA managed to be exceptionally gracious in dealing with the inevitable departure of conservative parishes for the ECO and NALC after the capitulation of the PCUSA and ELCA on the issue of homosexuality).

One interesting fact is that for the moment at least, the Church of England has not yet capitulated on the issue of homosexual marriage, although such capitulation seems inevitable.

BobRyan · Jul 9, 2023

Dale said:
At a General Synod of the Church of England, the Archbishop of York, Stephen Cottrell, has said that the first two words of the Lord’s Prayer are “problematic.” The Lord’s Prayer opens with the words “Our Father.” This is apparently too patriarchal and gives too much credit to men.

Archbishop Cottrell has some supporters for his stand.

<< Rev Christina Rees CBE, a former General Synod member, founder member of the Archbishops’ Council, agreed that calling God ‘father’ was "hugely problematic". >> (The Guardian)

Titus 2 calls Jesus "Our great GOD AND SAVIOR" --

So then it is "our great God and Savior" that tells us to pray that way -- and by contrast it is Christina Rees, and Stephen Cottrell that "beg to differ"??

Dale · Jul 9, 2023

I’ve just figured out what needs to be done. I was raised as a Southern Baptist. We were taught that the Lord’s Prayer should be called the Model Prayer. The Baptist view is that it was never intended to be recited word for word. Catholics just assume that religion is usually about repetition of formulas, and Episcopalians absorbed that view. The Baptists say that the Prayer teaches us that we should open our prayers by acknowledging the greatness of God, the need for the coming of His Kingdom, and that we are in need of His guidance. Then we should proceed to petitions for legitimate needs (“give us this day our daily bread”), acknowledge our need for forgiveness, and close once more in awe of God and His Kingdom.

Since the Baptists allow more latitude than Episcopalians, the solution is for Archbishop Stephen Cottrell to become a Baptist. He would have to give up that fancy title since Baptists don’t believe in fancy titles.

The Liturgist · Jul 10, 2023

Dale said:
I’ve just figured out what needs to be done. I was raised as a Southern Baptist. We were taught that the Lord’s Prayer should be called the Model Prayer. The Baptist view is that it was never intended to be recited word for word. Catholics just assume that religion is usually about repetition of formulas, and Episcopalians absorbed that view. The Baptists say that the Prayer teaches us that we should open our prayers by acknowledging the greatness of God, the need for the coming of His Kingdom, and that we are in need of His guidance. Then we should proceed to petitions for legitimate needs (“give us this day our daily bread”), acknowledge our need for forgiveness, and close once more in awe of God and His Kingdom.

Since the Baptists allow more latitude than Episcopalians, the solution is for Archbishop Stephen Cottrell to become a Baptist. He would have to give up that fancy title since Baptists don’t believe in fancy titles.

All Baptists I know do recite the Lord’s Prayer literally, and there is nothing at all wrong with that. Indeed I went to a Southern Baptist kindergarten where the Lord’s Prayer was used. Actually I know of only one “denomination” which adamantly prohibits the literal recitation of the Lord’s Prayer, and that is the Mormons, because they see even that as “vain repetition” (although curiously they do not apply this standard to their temple rituals).

Regarding “fancy titles”, I would note that the Greek word for Bishop, Episkopos, is in the New Testament, and simply means superintendent. So Archbishop literally means “Ruling Superintendent” and the Christian Church has had archbishops since at least the late first century, for historically the cities of Jerusalem, before its destruction, and Antioch, Rome and Alexandria were major centers of Christian learning, and the bishops of those cities historically resolved disputes between other bishops. We see this in the Epistle Archbishop Clement of Rome sent to the Church in Corinth (the bishops of Rome did not adopt the style Pope until the sixth century). After the destruction of Jerusalem in 130 AD, the cities of Antioch and Alexandria became the main centers for catechtical instruction of Greek-speaking Christians, the city of Rome became the center of efforts to translate the Bible and the liturgy into Latin, which was the vernacular language in the Western Roman Empire (where Greek was known only to the upper classes), and the cities of Edessa, Damascus, Seleucia-Cstesiphon and Kerala, India, became the centers of the Syriac speaking church and also the Indian church (which had been established in Kerala in 53 AD).

Dale · Jul 10, 2023

The Liturgist said:
That is horrifying. For the time being at least, the 1662 BCP and Common Worship, which are the two authorized liturgical texts in the C of E, both contain the Lord’s Prayer in the traditional form.

Fortunately the C of E still has conservative bishops and conservative clergy and parishes on both the Anglo-Catholic / High Church and Low Church / Evangelical side, parishes like the extreme high church traditionalist St. Magnus the Martyr and All Saints Margaret Street and the evangelical Holy Trinity Brompton, and these parishes, as well as the dioceses with conservative bishops, will never accept this change. Indeed there is even a group of Anglo Catholic bishops called The Society, which was organized by Forward in Faith, an Anglo Catholic lay association, the goal of which is to preserve an all-male Apostolic Succession in the Church of England despite the recent introduction of female bishops.

Now, one of the strengths of the C of E has been its ability to preserve unity despite having outlier members who have eccentric beliefs, but if the view of the new Archbishop of York were to become more mainstream, and what is especially worrying in this case is that historically the Archbishop of York has been a voice of moderation in the Church of England, it could actually cause a schism. It would be arrogant of the C of E to consider itself immune to schism simply because for the moment it still enjoys the status of an Estanlished Church; if a major schism broke out in the C of E it would probably lead to Disestablishment and then the church would have to sort out the messy business itself. And as the schisms in the Episcopal Church USA and the United Methodist Church show, such schisms can be extremely messy (conversely, the PCUSA and the ELCA managed to be exceptionally gracious in dealing with the inevitable departure of conservative parishes for the ECO and NALC after the capitulation of the PCUSA and ELCA on the issue of homosexuality).

One interesting fact is that for the moment at least, the Church of England has not yet capitulated on the issue of homosexual marriage, although such capitulation seems inevitable.

Rev. Christina Rees has "CBE" after her name. What does that stand for? Is that a rank or what?

Dale · Jul 10, 2023

The Liturgist said:
That is horrifying. For the time being at least, the 1662 BCP and Common Worship, which are the two authorized liturgical texts in the C of E, both contain the Lord’s Prayer in the traditional form.

Fortunately the C of E still has conservative bishops and conservative clergy and parishes on both the Anglo-Catholic / High Church and Low Church / Evangelical side, parishes like the extreme high church traditionalist St. Magnus the Martyr and All Saints Margaret Street and the evangelical Holy Trinity Brompton, and these parishes, as well as the dioceses with conservative bishops, will never accept this change. Indeed there is even a group of Anglo Catholic bishops called The Society, which was organized by Forward in Faith, an Anglo Catholic lay association, the goal of which is to preserve an all-male Apostolic Succession in the Church of England despite the recent introduction of female bishops.

Now, one of the strengths of the C of E has been its ability to preserve unity despite having outlier members who have eccentric beliefs, but if the view of the new Archbishop of York were to become more mainstream, and what is especially worrying in this case is that historically the Archbishop of York has been a voice of moderation in the Church of England, it could actually cause a schism. It would be arrogant of the C of E to consider itself immune to schism simply because for the moment it still enjoys the status of an Estanlished Church; if a major schism broke out in the C of E it would probably lead to Disestablishment and then the church would have to sort out the messy business itself. And as the schisms in the Episcopal Church USA and the United Methodist Church show, such schisms can be extremely messy (conversely, the PCUSA and the ELCA managed to be exceptionally gracious in dealing with the inevitable departure of conservative parishes for the ECO and NALC after the capitulation of the PCUSA and ELCA on the issue of homosexuality).

One interesting fact is that for the moment at least, the Church of England has not yet capitulated on the issue of homosexual marriage, although such capitulation seems inevitable.

On the issue of homosexuality, where I live I talked to a man who left the Episcopal Church when they became open to homosexual ministers and bishops. He became a Methodist. Now the Methodists are splitting over the same issue. I think the church he is in is on the conservative side of the split.

Divide · Jul 10, 2023

Leave it to the English to miss the entire point of the Lord's prayer. This prayer is a model prayer for Christians and you can change the wording slightly to personalize it without losing any reverance to the prayer or Father God.

"Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be thy Name."

You always start prayer with Praise to the Father!

"Thy Kingdom come Thy will be done, on earth, just like it is in Heaven."

That was the Father again, His will be done on earth. You can't take the Father out of the Lords prayer!

The Liturgist · Jul 10, 2023

Dale said:
On the issue of homosexuality, where I live I talked to a man who left the Episcopal Church when they became open to homosexual ministers and bishops. He became a Methodist. Now the Methodists are splitting over the same issue. I think the church he is in is on the conservative side of the split.

Ironically the split is actually forbidden by tbe Traditional Plan which aimed to settle the matter against homosexuality adopted at the 2018 General Conference, so the whole thing is due to intentional violations of the Book of Discipline by the liberal Methodist parishes in the US. The same congregations in early 2022 despite Covid by that time having ceased to be an issue managed to push back the next General Conference until 2024. I am so upset about what is happening in the UMC I lack the words to express my frustration.

The Liturgist · Jul 10, 2023

Dale said:
Rev. Christina Rees has "CBE" after her name. What does that stand for? Is that a rank or what?

It is an honor bestowed by the monarch at the recommendation of the Prime Minister, like knighthoods. It stands for Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, but despite the impressive name, is less significant than a Knighthood, which is bestowed personally by the monarch by dubbing the recipient with a sword.

Dale · Jul 10, 2023

The Liturgist said:
All Baptists I know do recite the Lord’s Prayer literally, and there is nothing at all wrong with that. Indeed I went to a Southern Baptist kindergarten where the Lord’s Prayer was used. Actually I know of only one “denomination” which adamantly prohibits the literal recitation of the Lord’s Prayer, and that is the Mormons, because they see even that as “vain repetition” (although curiously they do not apply this standard to their temple rituals).

Regarding “fancy titles”, I would note that the Greek word for Bishop, Episkopos, is in the New Testament, and simply means superintendent. So Archbishop literally means “Ruling Superintendent” and the Christian Church has had archbishops since at least the late first century, for historically the cities of Jerusalem, before its destruction, and Antioch, Rome and Alexandria were major centers of Christian learning, and the bishops of those cities historically resolved disputes between other bishops. We see this in the Epistle Archbishop Clement of Rome sent to the Church in Corinth (the bishops of Rome did not adopt the style Pope until the sixth century). After the destruction of Jerusalem in 130 AD, the cities of Antioch and Alexandria became the main centers for catechtical instruction of Greek-speaking Christians, the city of Rome became the center of efforts to translate the Bible and the liturgy into Latin, which was the vernacular language in the Western Roman Empire (where Greek was known only to the upper classes), and the cities of Edessa, Damascus, Seleucia-Cstesiphon and Kerala, India, became the centers of the Syriac speaking church and also the Indian church (which had been established in Kerala in 53 AD).

Divide said:
Leave it to the English to miss the entire point of the Lord's prayer. This prayer is a model prayer for Christians and you can change the wording slightly to personalize it without losing any reverance to the prayer or Father God.

"Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be thy Name."

You always start prayer with Praise to the Father!

"Thy Kingdom come Thy will be done, on earth, just like it is in Heaven."

That was the Father again, His will be done on earth. You can't take the Father out of the Lords prayer!

Liturgist,

You seem to think that I’m stretching the point on the Model Prayer. Here are some sites that refer to this belief, this practice.

<< This model prayer, also called “The Lord’s Prayer,” covers every aspect of prayer. It can be divided into two parts. The first three components of the prayer deal with God’s glory: “Hallowed be Your name,” “Your Kingdom come,” and “Your will be done.”

The second three components of the model prayer deal with our need. “Give us this day our daily bread,” “Forgive us our debts,” and “Lead us not into temptation.” >>

Source
The Model Prayer

<< Certainly, it is appropriate to recite the Lord’s Prayer. Yet, what many people miss is that the Lord’s Prayer is not merely something for us to say aloud but actually is a model structure for prayer. We know this from Matthew 6:9, where in introducing the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus says, “Pray then like this.” >>

Source
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/model-prayer

<< Jesus gave a model of prayer in Matthew 6, because the disciples wanted to know how to really pray. The Lord’s Prayer was not meant to be simply memorized and recited. It was meant to be to a guideline and outline on how to pray. >>

Source
Jesus' Model of Prayer

<< Lord’s Prayer was intended as a model not a mantra. Given the way it is often used today, it is more than a little ironic to observe that the model was taught, at least in part, as an alternative to the mindless, repetitive nature of pagan prayer. >>

Source
https://ca.thegospelcoalition.org/columns/ad-fontes/how-to-use-the-lords-model-prayer/

seeking.IAM · Jul 10, 2023

Dale said:
Lord’s Prayer was intended as a model not a mantra.

Nor do we see it as such. One of the things missed in this discussion is that many (most?) traditional liturgical churches are rather fond of the notion that the entirety of their corner of Christianity is praying the same thing at the same time. It is not a mantra. It's not vain repetition. It is common prayer. That's the beauty for many of us to structured liturgical worship -thousands of voices making common praises and supplications -- all praying the same thing..

There is plenty of room for unstructured prayer (even using the "model") during other personal aspects of worship. As for me, I think it's the height of arrogance for one to think he/she can improve upon the prayer our Lord gave us.

Dale · Jul 10, 2023

seeking.IAM said:
Nor do we see it as such. One of the things missed in this discussion is that many (most?) traditional liturgical churches are rather fond of the notion that the entirety of their corner of Christianity is praying the same thing at the same time. It is not a mantra. It's not vain repetition. It is common prayer. That's the beauty for many of us to structured liturgical worship -thousands of voices making common praises and supplications -- all praying the same thing..

There is plenty of room for unstructured prayer (even using the "model") during other personal aspects of worship. As for me, I think it's the height of arrogance for one to think he/she can improve upon the prayer our Lord gave us.

Seeking: "As for me, I think it's the height of arrogance for one to think he/she can improve upon the prayer our Lord gave us."

I entirely agree. If you are going to quote a prayer of Jesus, or anything from the Bible, you can't change it at will.

The "mantra" point was quoted. That was the most negative comment of the four sources I quoted.
Thanks for sharing your point of view.

The Liturgist · Jul 26, 2023

Dale said:
Liturgist,

You seem to think that I’m stretching the point on the Model Prayer. Here are some sites that refer to this belief, this practice.

<< This model prayer, also called “The Lord’s Prayer,” covers every aspect of prayer. It can be divided into two parts. The first three components of the prayer deal with God’s glory: “Hallowed be Your name,” “Your Kingdom come,” and “Your will be done.”

The second three components of the model prayer deal with our need. “Give us this day our daily bread,” “Forgive us our debts,” and “Lead us not into temptation.” >>

Source
The Model Prayer

<< Certainly, it is appropriate to recite the Lord’s Prayer. Yet, what many people miss is that the Lord’s Prayer is not merely something for us to say aloud but actually is a model structure for prayer. We know this from Matthew 6:9, where in introducing the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus says, “Pray then like this.” >>

Source
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/model-prayer

<< Jesus gave a model of prayer in Matthew 6, because the disciples wanted to know how to really pray. The Lord’s Prayer was not meant to be simply memorized and recited. It was meant to be to a guideline and outline on how to pray. >>

Source
Jesus' Model of Prayer

<< Lord’s Prayer was intended as a model not a mantra. Given the way it is often used today, it is more than a little ironic to observe that the model was taught, at least in part, as an alternative to the mindless, repetitive nature of pagan prayer. >>

Source
https://ca.thegospelcoalition.org/columns/ad-fontes/how-to-use-the-lords-model-prayer/

I do agree that the Lord’s Prayer is a model, however, I disagree with anyone who says that it is wrong to pray the Lord’s Prayer as given by our Lord. We absolutely can use it as the basis for other prayers however. Indeed, there are entire genres of liturgical poetry that consist of writing hymns or prayers which contain glosses or farcings on the Psalms and other Scriptural Canticles, or which contain prayers or hymns inspired by them, for example, the Nine Odes of the Byzantine Canticle, each of which is thematically related to one of the nine canticles from various Old Testament books such as Deuteronomy, Habbakuk, Daniel, and the first two evangelical canticles in Luke, and the Canon forms the centerpiece of Matins, the most ornate and beautiful part of the daily prayers in the Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition, and the form of the Canon was also adopted enthusiastically by the Syriac Orthodox, who wrote their own distinctive Qanones. So it is absolutely legitimate and correct to say that the Lord’s Prayer is a model prayer, provided one does not say that it is wrong to pray that prayer, which in its original version has always been regarded as being especially perfect, beautiful and worthy of use at the most hallowed points of the Christian liturgy since the days of the early church, as is witnessed by the common preface to it, “And now, according to the instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ, with boldness and without condemnation we dare to call upon Thee, our Heavenly God, as Father, and to say, Our Father…”

I would also note that as a model prayer the text of the Lord’s Prayer is so universally known that in liturgical churches it is traditionally referred to as Our Father, or Pater Noster in Latin, or Octe Nash in Church Slavonic, or Abun d’Bashmayo in Syriac.

OldAbramBrown · Aug 1, 2023

Since the 1960s the influencers have made religion ad hominem and materialist everywhere especially the C of E.

Grammar has always been metaphorical.

Instead of their superstitions (not praying at all) christians should pray in private how they like.

What's an archbishops' council, why is William Nye powerful, why did Rev John Stott get a decoration, was nothing else going on this July?

The Liturgist · Aug 1, 2023

OldAbramBrown said:
Since the 1960s the influencers have made religion ad hominem and materialist everywhere especially the C of E.

Grammar has always been metaphorical.

Instead of their superstitions (not praying at all) christians should pray in private how they like.

What's an archbishops' council, why is William Nye powerful, why did Rev John Stott get a decoration, was nothing else going on this July?

William Nye, you mean the obnoxious former TV host / Carl Sagan wannabe?

OldAbramBrown · Aug 3, 2023

The Liturgist said:
William Nye, you mean the obnoxious former TV host / Carl Sagan wannabe?

No, one of the other celebrity WNs entirely. No reflexion on the one you cite or any of the others intended.

OldAbramBrown · Aug 3, 2023

And furthermore, in addition: Revs Welby, Cotterell, Nye and C Rees, and their decoration collecting comperes in the tradition of the logic-free influencer John Stott, present themselves as weak. But they are the spiritual ruling class, almost world wide.

Dr Welby in fact didn't have a dad around, like a great many excellent people. It would have looked obvious if he had made this "point" individually.

The C of E make a song and dance that churchmanship is a protected characteristic and not up for debate. Yet the only sole real permitted ideology is that parishioners (and better bishops including one woman) have to fall in line, whether the trouble is taken to claim to refer to Scripture or not.

They call the latter "evangelical" which is a virtue signalling word. But the actual evangel comprises the meanings of all Jesus' teachings. Which used to be conveyed adequately by evensong and flowers. As well as by simple old style vicars and believers up and down the land (a lot of whom were the genuine kind of low church). We were evangelicals, before partisans pushed for power usurping our common belief.

What the C of E ruling class really hold is the carbon copy of the materialist moralisers who seized the seven mountains in the flesh by inventing "gender theology". Their religion is ad hominem which is why no-one truthful should follow it, whatsoever.

A number of commentators have traced this back through the "muscular christianity" of Bash Nash, Carl Henry, Teddy Roosevelt, etc. In that scenario, their god really is a monster. It's nice for the elite that they have abolished their god in their own privacy.

Another thing many people's mothers were nastier than their fathers.

One of my old denominations had a holy "Father" and a "Mother" church but never dared ask us to pray to the image of those.

Revs Nye, C Rees, Cotterell et al, are culprits in the harm they created by presuming to mix up evangel with the dominionism on which they coat tailed for their status.

Will a provident god whom the non elite will look to, be impressed by the political status these enjoy?

FireDragon76 · Aug 10, 2023

Dale said:
I’ve just figured out what needs to be done. I was raised as a Southern Baptist. We were taught that the Lord’s Prayer should be called the Model Prayer. The Baptist view is that it was never intended to be recited word for word. Catholics just assume that religion is usually about repetition of formulas, and Episcopalians absorbed that view.

It's not just Episcopalians. Most historic Reformed churches continue to use the Lord's Prayer, as do Lutherans.

Dale said:
The Baptists say that the Prayer teaches us that we should open our prayers by acknowledging the greatness of God, the need for the coming of His Kingdom, and that we are in need of His guidance. Then we should proceed to petitions for legitimate needs (“give us this day our daily bread”), acknowledge our need for forgiveness, and close once more in awe of God and His Kingdom.

Jesus lived in a culture in which that type of prayers were customary. Jews still don't engage in much extemporaneous prayers.

It's not the originality of a prayer that determines it's worth, but the sincerity behind it.

Church of England has a problem with the Lord’s Prayer

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