Curious, is Mary a co-redemptrix in Orthodoxy too?

Gregory Thompson · Jun 25, 2023

Curious, is Mary a co-redemptrix in Orthodoxy too?

I read somewhere on the forum that Catholic and Orthodox believe the same things about Mary. This aspect was the first to come to mind as something with a distinction.

Simple Yes or No question, please let me know.

Petros2015 · Jun 25, 2023

Michael Collum said:
Simple Yes or No question, please let me know.

If it's a dogmatic position that has evolved over time on the RC side post schism as clarified by various RC popes after that point, likely not. I'm not sure what it entails or excludes precisely and it doesn't look like it is currently official RC dogma? If it became dogma tomorrow, the answer would be no.

Co-Redemptrix - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Orthodox would officially hold to 2 of the RC Marian Dogmatic teachings, Mother of God and Perpetual Virgin, but not Immaculate Conception and Assumption. They may agree with some of the thought behind the dogmas (for example the Dormition of the Mary where she falls asleep is a tradition that is similar but not the same as the dogmatically defined RC Assumption of Mary) Dormition of the Mother of God - Wikipedia

Catholic Mariology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In general, I think the Orthodox position towards the later developing RC positions is often simply "it was good the way it was, you guys are taking things a bit far". And building block upon block, the tower eventually crashes down if the blocks are not all straight. The Orthodox stopped laying blocks, or at least they do not do so outside of Ecumenical Council.

Hope that helps. (other members please correct me if/where I am off base)

ArmyMatt · Jun 25, 2023

Michael Collum said:
Curious, is Mary a co-redemptrix in Orthodoxy too?

I read somewhere on the forum that Catholic and Orthodox believe the same things about Mary. This aspect was the first to come to mind as something with a distinction.

Simple Yes or No question, please let me know.

no, only God is our redeemer, not His Mother.

Dewi Sant · Jun 25, 2023

Simple answer: No

Complex answer: No, but the Mother of God has a remarkably unique role as being the mother of Christ, and to ask for her prayers is a great privilege due to her position.

She is not the object of our prayers, that is God alone; but as we may ask a friend to pray for us, we ask too the saints who are alive in the kingdom of God, none more esteemed than she who carried and gave birth to Jesus Christ as Theotokos (God bearer in Greek)

The principal issue I have with the Roman Catholic marian doctrines is how through the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the personhood of Mary is made so utterly unlike the rest of humanity as to render her a different species from ourselves, and this of course has issues in the Christology of her son. I can see how the Immaculate Conception arose from a good intention of piety, but it misses the transformative elements of the redemption of humanity.

All4Christ · Jun 25, 2023

Michael Collum said:
Curious, is Mary a co-redemptrix in Orthodoxy too?

I read somewhere on the forum that Catholic and Orthodox believe the same things about Mary. This aspect was the first to come to mind as something with a distinction.

Simple Yes or No question, please let me know.

No

Gregory Thompson · Jun 26, 2023

Thank you.

ArmyMatt · Jun 26, 2023

no problem!

narnia59 · Jul 5, 2023

Michael Collum said:
Curious, is Mary a co-redemptrix in Orthodoxy too?

I read somewhere on the forum that Catholic and Orthodox believe the same things about Mary. This aspect was the first to come to mind as something with a distinction.

Simple Yes or No question, please let me know.

Mary is not co-redemptrix in Catholicism.

It's a dogma that has been proposed by some but never accepted or defined by the Catholic Church.

There are only 4 Marian dogmas in Catholicism -- she is Mother of God, ever-virgin, the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

ArmyMatt · Jul 5, 2023

narnia59 said:
There are only 4 Marian dogmas in Catholicism -- she is Mother of God, ever-virgin, the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

and we reject at least one of these, maybe two depending on how one understands the other.

not trying to be polemical, it just relates to the initial question.

ValeriyK2022 · Jul 5, 2023

ArmyMatt said:
and we reject at least one of these, maybe two depending on how one understands the other.

not trying to be polemical, it just relates to the initial question.

In Orthodoxy, the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, and she is also the Ever-Virgin (since, according to the canons of the Ecumenical Councils, Christmas was not ordinary - Rule 79 of the Fifth-Sixth Ecumenical Council). And according to the Tradition of the Church, the Mother of God died easily and painlessly, as if falling asleep, and her body was also taken to Heaven.

narnia59 · Jul 5, 2023

ArmyMatt said:
and we reject at least one of these, maybe two depending on how one understands the other.

not trying to be polemical, it just relates to the initial question.

Yes it does relate. But the initial question was flawed because it was based on a false assertion.

ArmyMatt · Jul 5, 2023

narnia59 said:
Yes it does relate. But the initial question was flawed because it was based on a false assertion.

sure, I just wanted to clarify since the post was that we have similar views on Mary. my post was more for any lurkers out there.

ArmyMatt · Jul 5, 2023

ValeriyK2022 said:
In Orthodoxy, the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, and she is also the Ever-Virgin (since, according to the canons of the Ecumenical Councils, Christmas was not ordinary - Rule 79 of the Fifth-Sixth Ecumenical Council). And according to the Tradition of the Church, the Mother of God died easily and painlessly, as if falling asleep, and her body was also taken to Heaven.

yep

Gregory Thompson · Jul 5, 2023

narnia59 said:
Mary is not co-redemptrix in Catholicism.

It's a dogma that has been proposed by some but never accepted or defined by the Catholic Church.

There are only 4 Marian dogmas in Catholicism -- she is Mother of God, ever-virgin, the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

This is classic Catholic deception: have a bunch of people going overboard asserting something that sounds weird, then have one person show up and say .. no we do not believe that.

However, the pattern follows in Catholocism: It is about Jesus, until it is about Mary.

This pattern is not observed in Othodoxy.

narnia59 · Jul 5, 2023

Michael Collum said:
This is classic Catholic deception: have a bunch of people going overboard asserting something that sounds weird, then have one person show up and say .. no we do not believe that.

However, the pattern follows in Catholocism: It is about Jesus, until it is about Mary.

This pattern is not observed in Othodoxy.

Show me in the catechism (the official teaching of the Catholic Church) where we teach Mary is co-redemptrix. Go ahead, knock yourself out.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

scborromeo2.org

And when you can't find it you can apologize for referring to my post as a "classic Catholic deception"

Dewi Sant · Jul 5, 2023

"Co-redemptrix" does not mean to place her at the same saving level as Jesus, but to emphasize her cooperative role in salvation. - Co-Redemptrix as Dogma? : University of Dayton, Ohio

Could it be that we are actually in agreement with Catholics, but as is often the case, it is language which befuddles understanding.

Does Mary save? No
Does Mary have pre-eminence in the theatre of intercession? Perhaps

Gregory Thompson · Jul 5, 2023

narnia59 said:
Show me in the catechism (the official teaching of the Catholic Church) where we teach Mary is co-redemptrix. Go ahead, knock yourself out.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

scborromeo2.org

And when you can't find it you can apologize for referring to my post as a "classic Catholic deception"

965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."504 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."505

. . . also in her Assumption

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

It's there. I tend to use the one on the vatican website since it has https protocols, the borneo one doesn't. Here is a safer link for the catechism. Catechism of the Catholic Church

narnia59 · Jul 6, 2023

Michael Collum said:
965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."504 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."505

. . . also in her Assumption

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

It's there. I tend to use the one on the vatican website since it has https protocols, the borneo one doesn't. Here is a safer link for the catechism. Catechism of the Catholic Church

And none of that mentions her being "co-redemptrix" now does it?

But do the Orthodox not believe that by our prayers we can help deliver another's soul from death? Or that we can intercede for others to bring them the gifts of salvation? St. Paul certainly saw himself in this role when he said that he became all things to all men so that he may by all means save some. And yes, Catholics do believe that Mary's role is unique in this way.

And neither does the term "Mediatrix" you've underlined point to redemptrix. Interesting article here -- the Orthodox also use the term Mediatrix in their worship.

"Though there are numerous renderings of this hymn in felicitous English (both using the “thou” and “you” forms), let me offer a literal translation of the hymn from the Greek, in which I keep, as much as possible, the word order and the emphasis, without worrying about adapting it to the melody:

You who were the mediatrix of the salvation of our race, we hymn, Virgin Theotokos! For in the flesh, that very flesh taken from you, your Son and our God, because he had embraced the passion of the cross, redeemed us from corruption, as the Lover of humankind."

Mediatrix of our Salvation: The Dismissal Theotokion in the Third Tone – A Lamp for Today

(With help from Jeremiah 31, Genesis 3, Isaiah 6) The dismissal hymn for the Theotokos this week (in tone three), though quite brief, prompts many questions for those who are not Orthodox. It also suggests some points for deep meditation even for those who have been following in the Orthodox...

blogs.ancientfaith.com

The author of that article also says this which seems to be quite similar to what the Catholic Catechism says about her unique assistance to us:

"And yet, in the new covenant we still care for each other, still pray for each other, still teach each other, still help each other, still bear each other’s burdens. And so it is that the ancient Church kept the office of priest, and anointed bishops who succeeded the apostles, those who had seen the risen Jesus with their fleshly eyes. Moreover, those of us in the ancient Church celebrate the holy Birthgiver and Mother of God, as one of those who especially helps us: “Holy Birth-Giver of God,” we cry out, “come to our aid!”"

And he also notes correctly that Mediatrix is different than Redemptrix and that the Catholic Church does not teach that Mary is co-Redemptrix:

"It should be emphasized that the term “mediatrix” and the title “Redemptrix” are very different: the Orthodox communion is not tempted to call Mary our “redeemer,” unlike some pious Roman Catholics who have appealed (so far, unsuccessfully!) to the Pope several times to add this title to her. As this hymn expresses it, Mary has mediated for us in a particular and powerful way, but it is the Son alone who “redeemed us” through the cross."

To make the claim that Catholics believe and teach that Mary is co-redemptrix is not true and if you continue to perpetuate that understanding you will be guilty of a falsehood.

"

ArmyMatt · Jul 6, 2023

narnia59 said:
But do the Orthodox not believe that by our prayers we can help deliver another's soul from death?

of course they can. however, one of the issues I see in the catechism quoted is that the catechism states her prayers WILL deliver our souls from death. I don’t think we can be so bold. we certainly hope her prayers deliver our souls from death, and in a sense live in that expectation.

that said, we do affirm her assumption after her death, that she is living the resurrected life with her Son, and Mediatrix is a proper title (when properly understood) to her.

prodromos · Jul 6, 2023

ArmyMatt said:
of course they can. however, one of the issues I see in the catechism quoted is that the catechism states her prayers WILL deliver our souls from death. I don’t think we can be so bold. we certainly hope her prayers deliver our souls from death, and in a sense live in that expectation.

that said, we do affirm her assumption after her death, that she is living the resurrected life with her Son, and Mediatrix is a proper title (when properly understood) to her.

I would like to see the Greek text that has been translated.

Curious, is Mary a co-redemptrix in Orthodoxy too?

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