• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Priests would rather go to jail than break seal of confession

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,975
20,001
Flyoverland
✟1,391,718.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,476
23,135
US
✟1,767,002.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yet another reason to think it must be time to move out of Washington state.
Even the US Military absolutely honors confessions.

I suspect the several US federal court precedents which prove military chaplains have absolute confidentiality would bear on Washington state trying to deny it.

I'll bet those Washington politicians have not delved into the military cases. In this case, the First Amendment would bear equally: Government is government, which is why the military has from the start had to hew closely to the Bill of Rights.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,975
20,001
Flyoverland
✟1,391,718.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Even the US Military absolutely honors confessions.

I suspect the several US federal court precedents which prove military chaplains have absolute confidentiality would bear on Washington state trying to deny it.

I'll bet those Washington politicians have not delved into the military cases. In this case, the First Amendment would bear equally: Government is government, which is why the military has from the start had to hew closely to the Bill of Rights.
You would think. But then we had a free speech only a few years ago too and that went away. This country is morphing and places like Washington state are showing the way.

Is resistance futile?
 
Upvote 0

narnia59

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 17, 2007
5,806
1,316
✟493,928.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Soooo wrong...
As Washington state lawmakers debate legislation that would end legal protections for the seal of confession
Washington bishop: Priests would rather go to jail than break seal of confession
Anyone that can apply an ounce of reason to the situation would know that if you could actually force a priest to break the seal, then someone guilty of a crime would never confess it. The only reason they would go to confession is that their conscience is bothering them and they know that the priest can't tell anyone. So in current state you have a situation where someone who might be having a tweak of conscience would receive some counsel that they need to admit their crime and turn themselves in. Remove the seal and they simply won't go.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,164
8,572
51
The Wild West
✟824,191.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
That bishop just got added to the list of heroic Roman Rite Catholic bishops I love, along with Raymond Cardinal Burke, Cardinal Sarah, Archbishop Cordileone, Bishop Athanasius Schneider of Kazakhstan (I forgot his rank, embarrassingly, but not his locality, as there is a German community in Kazakhstan that was exiled there by Stalin after WWII, and while many have returned to Germany since Reunification, some have remained and some are related to Russians or Kazakhs and might not qualify under the Basic Law), and the Bishops of Madison and Pere Marquette, among several others.

I think its Victoria or South Australia where pastor/penitent privilege has already been abolished?
 
Upvote 0

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,690
6,659
Nashville TN
✟779,101.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
SIDEBAR (but on topic):
I Confess is a 1953 film directed by Alfred Hitchcock, starring Montgomery Clift as Fr. Michael William Logan, a Catholic priest.
It's an entertaining drama that explores the concept being discussed.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,975
20,001
Flyoverland
✟1,391,718.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
... Bishop Athanasius Schneider of Kazakhstan (I forgot his rank, embarrassingly, but not his locality, as there is a German community in Kazakhstan that was exiled there by Stalin after WWII, and while many have returned to Germany since Reunification, some have remained and some are related to Russians or Kazakhs and might not qualify under the Basic Law) ...
He is a mere bishop and will stay that way while pope Francis and friends are in power. Perhaps after that he will rise. For now he is even 'officially discouraged' from travel by the Vatican.

I agree with your thoughts about the bishop of Madison and his immediate predecessor.
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
35,930
20,220
45
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,735,127.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I think its Victoria or South Australia where pastor/penitent privilege has already been abolished?
There are a number of places around the world where secular law doesn't consider the seal of confession absolute (particularly in cases of child abuse) and Victoria is one of them.
This can be managed relatively neatly when the penitent is the abuser, but it is more difficult when it's the victim who discloses in confession.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,975
20,001
Flyoverland
✟1,391,718.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
There are a number of places around the world where secular law doesn't consider the seal of confession absolute (particularly in cases of child abuse) and Victoria is one of them.
This can be managed relatively neatly when the penitent is the abuser, but it is more difficult when it's the victim who discloses in confession.
What do you mean by 'managed relatively neatly'? I guess I don't see it as neat at all if disclosed in confession, by victim or perpetrator.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,975
20,001
Flyoverland
✟1,391,718.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Anyone that can apply an ounce of reason to the situation would know that if you could actually force a priest to break the seal, then someone guilty of a crime would never confess it. The only reason they would go to confession is that their conscience is bothering them and they know that the priest can't tell anyone. So in current state you have a situation where someone who might be having a tweak of conscience would receive some counsel that they need to admit their crime and turn themselves in. Remove the seal and they simply won't go.
The kind of priests we should be ordaining are those willing to go to prison (or even to die) to protect the inviolability of confession. The rest aren't the kind I would trust to be more than government agents.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RDKirk
Upvote 0

narnia59

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 17, 2007
5,806
1,316
✟493,928.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The kind of priests we should be ordaining are those willing to go to prison (or even to die) to protect the inviolability of confession. The rest aren't the kind I would trust to be more than government agents.
Yeah I didn't mean to imply that I thought a law change would change priests doing the right thing.

Just saying that if they got what they wanted (the law changed and priests complied) then people would simply quit confessing their crimes to a priest so they would have gained nothing and lost the possibility that a priest could bring somebody to repentance.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Valletta
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,975
20,001
Flyoverland
✟1,391,718.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Yeah I didn't mean to imply that I thought a law change would change priests doing the right thing.

Just saying that if they got what they wanted (the law changed and priests complied) then people would simply quit confessing their crimes to a priest so they would have gained nothing and lost the possibility that a priest could bring somebody to repentance.
Exactly. If they want priests to be government snitches what they will get is serious offenders even less likely to confess their sins and a net gain of zero information about serious offenders.

But it’s all about virtue signaling anyway, and the new woke virtue is destroying the Christian faith by a thousand cuts, not about solving crimes. Destroying the inviolatilability of the confessional will not protect anyone in the long run.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RDKirk
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
35,930
20,220
45
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,735,127.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
What do you mean by 'managed relatively neatly'? I guess I don't see it as neat at all if disclosed in confession, by victim or perpetrator.
If confessed by the perpetrator, you make turning themselves in to the authorities part of the penance. (That's what I understand, from discussion with local Catholic clergy in Victoria, is the approach they've been told will be taken. I also understand that not just every priest is authorised to hear such a confession, but that there are specialists in dealing with abusers to whom such a person must be referred).

It's messier for the victim because you don't have that option; and if they're not ready or willing to disclose outside confession (which is what you'd encourage) then you're left in a very hard place.

I have heard, anecdotally, that it's very, very rare for a perpetrator to confess before being caught. Even people with many decades of ministry specialising in confession say that they've never heard such a confession. But disclosures from victims looking to resolve their sense of guilt and shame is much, much more common.
 
Upvote 0

Chrystal-J

The one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Site Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
13,704
7,055
Detroit
✟997,150.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
It will come to that, maybe even torture. As is says in 2 Timothy 3:12
"Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,"
 
Upvote 0