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Are you interested in an opinion not held by Messianic Christians? You did post in general. Blessings.
Yes, it is open to anyone to state their opinion of what point Paul was making by referencing Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim and how that is relevant to what he said in the surround verses. For example, it is common for people to cite Romans 10:9-10 in regard to what we need to do for salvation without regard how the point that Paul was making in verses 5-8 is relevant to verses 9-10.
He is simply contasting the law of Moses, where no salvation could be obtained, from the law of Christ. Rather than jump to the middle of what he is trying to convey, start from the beginning. He explains where he is comming from, his desire for Israel to break from the bondage of the law.
There is nothing in this passage that speaks about the Law of Christ or that contrasts it with the Law of Moses. Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses, so I don't see any grounds for thinking that the Law of Christ is something other than or contrary to what Christ taught by example. Christ is one with the Father, so he was not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow.
Well I gave you the explanation that is not denomination specific, Messianic.
Rom9:30 tells us that righteousness is acquired from faith - the nations did this
Romans 10 is a digression from Paul's presentation of the cause of Israel's rejection.
It might just be how are phrasing it, but the reason why they failed to attain righteousness was because they pursued the law with the wrong goal as if righteousness were the result of their works rather than pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ.
When it says that they had a zeal for God, but that is was not based on knowledge, it is not just speaking about not knowing the right way to become righteous, but about not knowing God because righteousness and eternal life come through knowing God and Jesus (John 17:3), which is why knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for all who have faith (Romans 10:4). In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law,
In Deuteronomy 30:15-16, obedience to God's law brings life, which is the same thing that Leviticus 18:5 is saying, which is in addition to what Moses wrote in Deuteronomy 30:11-14, so in Romans 10:5-8, Paul was connecting Deuteronomy 30:11-16 with righteousness that is by faith and with eternal life that comes from knowing Christ. In Deuteronomy 30:11-16, it is speaking about God's law, so by Paul interpreting it as referring to Christ in Romans 10:5-8, he was connecting God's law with Christ, which is an easy connection to make because God's law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh. This is also in accordance with verses like Matthew 19:17 and Luke 10:25-28, where Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. I'm not sure why you referenced Deuteronomy 9:4.
In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life, so choose life! So Romans 10:5 is speaking about eternal life coming with obeying God's law as the way to know Christ, which is something that Israel could do, did do, and that we can also do. I don't see anything in these verses that specifically refers to Christ doing laws and living by means of them. Yes, doing these laws is from faith and the way to believe in Christ. Inn 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, he walked in obedience to God's law, and this was written post-resurrection.
Both the surrounding context of Romans 9:30-10:10 and the broader context supports that knowing Christ is the goal of the law and nothing in this passage supports him being the end of it. It would make no sense to say that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith and that this faith references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim, which is in full support of obeying God's law through faith as the way of righteousness and eternal life. Furthermore, Romans 10:5-8 has direct relevance to how we should understand Romans 10:9-10.
Romans 10:5-8 is not denomination specific and you explanation did not address the point that Paul was making in those verses or how that point is relevant to Romans 9:30-10:4, but rather your explanation not only ignored Romans 10:5-8 upholding Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim, but is contrary to it.
In Romans 10:5-10, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain eternal life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God rose Jesus from the dead. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is again he way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).In the past I have tried to overthink these verses. I am not sure there is a deep theological explanation required. The OT verse is just being used to justify the NT operation of faith in salvation.
Romans 10:8-9 KJV
8. But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
The operation of faith is to believe in the heart and confess with the mouth. The word confess simply means to "say the same thing," in this case, the same thing that is believed in the heart. This confession takes the form of "calling on the name of the Lord." IOWs, if you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord, then you also believe that He has authority to effect your salvation when you call on Him.
I am not sure it is any more complicated than that.
It does not speak about Israel's rejection, but about Israel not attaining righteousness because they were missing the goal of the law.
That's what
I suggest you reread the verses that you cited because Pail was pretty explicit in his denial that Israel was being rejected. In any case, this thread is about the point that Paul was making in Romans 10:5-8 and how that is relevant to Romans 9:30-10:4, 10:9-10, and the rest of the chapter.
Agreed that this is what's being said. Some of Israel functioned according to these verses. But some like Zacharias were righteous and blameless walking per law Luke1:6. Paul said he was also Phil3:6. Some of Israel, including the Remnant, understood the faith of the law, or the Law of Faith.
I'm not sure I agree with you here. Their ignorance is said to be their doing works of law for righteousness. They didn't see the Law of Faith and they did not recognize Messiah. I can see how and why you tie this to knowing God and I agree with you about what John17 says (which many along the way never seem to read). I also can see why you attach Ex33:13 to this connecting of dots.
In the end, I have zero contention concerning our need to obey God per any and all of His commands and per His Law He is writing on our hearts. I'm not sure if we would agree what those laws are. I think Scripture is clear that faith in God and obedience to God are virtually the same thing.
Mostly answered above.
I've discussed telos with you before. I see telos as speaking of a few things. Termination of God's Law is not one of them. Termination of the Mosaic era is one of them. Goal is one of them. Fulfillment of the things the Law spoke of re: Christ is one of them. In a sense, since He is our righteousness 1Cor1:30, Jesus completed (another telos meaning) the Law for us, which we could not do, but this gives us a foundation we now need to build upon newly born in Christ in Spirit wherein and whereby God is causing us to walk in faithful obedience to Him Ez36:25-27; Jer31:33-34.
Pretty much answered above. Agree that we are being conformed to His likeness and that His Laws being written on our hearts is part of this.
Agreed. In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that they searched the Scripture because they think that in them they will find eternal life, and they testify about him, yet they refuse to come to him that they might have life. In Matthew 19:17 and Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so eternal life can be found in the Scripture and the Pharisees were correct to search for it there, but they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in the Scriptures is to testify about how to know Christ and come to him for eternal life (John 17:3). If we understand verses like John 5:39-40, Matthew 7:21-23, and Romans 9:30-10:4 to be saying that knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness and eternal life for everyone who has faith, then it become clear that Paul was in the same boat in Philippians 3:6-8 and that he was not saying that the law is rubbish and we just need to know Christ instead, but rather he had been obeying the law without being focused on the goal of knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law, and that is what he was counting as rubbish.
In Romans 10:2-4, it says that they did not know the righteousness of God, they sought to establish their own, and they did not submit to God’s righteousness, so their ignorance was both that they did not know God by doing what is righteous through faith and that they sought to establish their own.
In Jeremiah 31:31-33, it says that the New Covenant involves God putting His Torah in our minds and writing in on our heart. Likewise, Deuteronomy 30:11-16 is speaking about the Torah, and therefore that is also what Romans 10:5-8 is speaking about. God's word says that the Torah is not too difficult to obey, so that is truth. The good kings tended to live much longer than the evil kings did, so if you add up the years, Israel was under a good king for the majority of the time, though they still did go through many redemption cycles, however, in regard to the times that Israel turned away from God's law, it is never stated that they reason that they did this was because it was because it was too difficult to obey. If God gave a law to His children that is too difficult for us to obey, then we could blame our failure to obey it on God, but that option is not available to us. The Israelites had the ability to obey God's law, but some turned away from it in order to serve other gods, so some chose death and a curse instead life and a blessing (Deuteronomy 30:11-20), and we have the same choice, which is also the same choice that Adam and Eve were given.
Christ is God's word made flesh, so hearing and obeying God's word is indeed the way to come to the one who is the living embodiment of God's word. God's law is situational, such as there being situations where killing someone is righteous and situations where killing someone is murder, so there is certainly room to debate how God's law applies to our modern situation, though it there is a huge difference between saying that it doesn't apply to our current situation, but should still be followed if the situation were to change, and saying that it no longer applies to any situation and no longer teaches us something that it is true about God's eternal nature.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the termination of the Mosaic era, though I see nothing in the surrounding context of Romans 10:4 that speaking about the termination of an era, and Paul proceeding to quote what Moses wrote to support what he was saying in Romans 10:5-8 would seem to undermine that. According to the NAS Greek Lexicon for pleroo, fulfilling the law refers to causing it to be obeyed as it should be, which is in accordance with what Jesus taught by word and by example, and it should not be understood as abolishing the law when he said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he did not come to abolish it. Nowhere does anywhere else in the Bible speak about Jesus completing the law for us or as the law as being something that can be completed other than the sense of correctly completing a task that it instructs us to do. It could be said that Jesus completed our understanding of how to correctly obey the law by teaching it to us. Again, Deuteronomy 30:11-14 states that God's law is something that we can do.
