Something that may help against Jehovah's Witnesses

1Tonne · Feb 24, 2023

If you can poke a hole in the Jehovah’s Witness teaching, they may start to doubt if the church is correct. So, it is good to have this little piece of knowledge in your quiver.
Here is a way of showing a Jehovah’s Witness that they are not the ones who return with Christ and reign for 1000 years.

I had a JW come to my door the other day and we spoke for about 15 minutes.
He went on to tell me that the JW’s will reign with Christ for 1000 years. I then asked him to read the verse about who reigns for 1000 years.
Revelation 20:4-5 says “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
At the start of this verse it says that John saw thrones and the ones that sat on the thrones and they were given the authority to judge. This implies that there are a number of judges. Then it says that John saw the martyrs for Christ. So, the ones judging, and the martyrs are not one in the same people. They are different beings. I then asked the JW, “If Christ judges everyone, then who are the ones that judge the martyrs? It specifically says that there are a number of thrones and judges.” The JW did not have the answer.

I then said to the JW that I believe the people who reign with Christ are the 144,000. And he agreed. So, I took him to the verses where the 144,000 are mentioned.
In Rev 7:4-8 John describes the 144,000 as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. So, they are Jewish people. The JW, then told me that this was symbolic. I said that I did not believe so. And then I showed him how in Matt 19:28 Jesus said that he would hand over the judgment of the nation of Israel, to the disciples. “And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”.
So, in Rev 20:4, the reason there are several thrones, and several Judges is because, it is the disciples who are judging Jewish people.

So, keep this in your quiver for the next time they arrive on your door. It may make them double think about their church.

NOTE: I do understand that many believers have a different view of end times, but I choose to read the bible literary. If it makes sense, then I do not add a symbolic mystical meaning to it.

d taylor · Feb 25, 2023

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Well to begin with jehovah witnesses do not believe Jesus is God. So that is their failing point, so unless that is addressed, noting is really accomplished.

eleos1954 · Feb 25, 2023

1Tonne said:
If you can poke a hole in the Jehovah’s Witness teaching, they may start to doubt if the church is correct. So, it is good to have this little piece of knowledge in your quiver.
Here is a way of showing a Jehovah’s Witness that they are not the ones who return with Christ and reign for 1000 years.

I had a JW come to my door the other day and we spoke for about 15 minutes.
He went on to tell me that the JW’s will reign with Christ for 1000 years. I then asked him to read the verse about who reigns for 1000 years.
Revelation 20:4-5 says “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
At the start of this verse it says that John saw thrones and the ones that sat on the thrones and they were given the authority to judge. This implies that there are a number of judges. Then it says that John saw the martyrs for Christ. So, the ones judging, and the martyrs are not one in the same people. They are different beings. I then asked the JW, “If Christ judges everyone, then who are the ones that judge the martyrs? It specifically says that there are a number of thrones and judges.” The JW did not have the answer.

I then said to the JW that I believe the people who reign with Christ are the 144,000. And he agreed. So, I took him to the verses where the 144,000 are mentioned.
In Rev 7:4-8 John describes the 144,000 as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. So, they are Jewish people. The JW, then told me that this was symbolic. I said that I did not believe so. And then I showed him how in Matt 19:20 Jesus said that he would hand over the judgment of the nation of Israel, to the disciples. “And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”.
So, in Rev 20:4, the reason there are several thrones, and several Judges is because, it is the disciples who are judging Jewish people.

So, keep this in your quiver for the next time they arrive on your door. It may make them double think about their church.

NOTE: I do understand that many believers have a different view of end times, but I choose to read the bible literary. If it makes sense, then I do not add a symbolic mystical meaning to it.

So, in Rev 20:4, the reason there are several thrones, and several Judges is because, it is the disciples who are judging Jewish people.

Jesus is judge of all ..... period!

rturner76 · Feb 25, 2023

1Tonne said:
If you can poke a hole in the Jehovah’s Witness teaching, they may start to doubt if the church is correct. So, it is good to have this little piece of knowledge in your quiver.
Here is a way of showing a Jehovah’s Witness that they are not the ones who return with Christ and reign for 1000 years.

I had a JW come to my door the other day and we spoke for about 15 minutes.
He went on to tell me that the JW’s will reign with Christ for 1000 years. I then asked him to read the verse about who reigns for 1000 years.
Revelation 20:4-5 says “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
At the start of this verse it says that John saw thrones and the ones that sat on the thrones and they were given the authority to judge. This implies that there are a number of judges. Then it says that John saw the martyrs for Christ. So, the ones judging, and the martyrs are not one in the same people. They are different beings. I then asked the JW, “If Christ judges everyone, then who are the ones that judge the martyrs? It specifically says that there are a number of thrones and judges.” The JW did not have the answer.

I then said to the JW that I believe the people who reign with Christ are the 144,000. And he agreed. So, I took him to the verses where the 144,000 are mentioned.
In Rev 7:4-8 John describes the 144,000 as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. So, they are Jewish people. The JW, then told me that this was symbolic. I said that I did not believe so. And then I showed him how in Matt 19:20 Jesus said that he would hand over the judgment of the nation of Israel, to the disciples. “And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”.
So, in Rev 20:4, the reason there are several thrones, and several Judges is because, it is the disciples who are judging Jewish people.

So, keep this in your quiver for the next time they arrive on your door. It may make them double think about their church.

NOTE: I do understand that many believers have a different view of end times, but I choose to read the bible literary. If it makes sense, then I do not add a symbolic mystical meaning to it.

I would say the people who Judge are Israelites and not just Jews. Judah is only one tribe of Isreal but Isreal encompasses all the tribes. Still right on though. We believe in a trinity.

1Tonne · Feb 25, 2023

d taylor said:
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Well to began with jehovah witnesses do not believe Jesus is God. So that is their failing point, so unless that is addressed, noting is really accomplished.

Agreed. That is one thing I also point them to. As well as the fact that we are saved by grace and not works.

eleos1954 said:
So, in Rev 20:4, the reason there are several thrones, and several Judges is because, it is the disciples who are judging Jewish people.

Jesus is judge of all ..... period!

We need to take into account what the bible actually says. I do believe that Jesus has the authority to judge everyone but he has gifted the disciples with the nation of Israel as it says in Matthew 19:28.
“And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”
It is pretty clear.

eleos1954 · Feb 25, 2023

1Tonne said:
Agreed. That is one thing I also point them to. As well as the fact that we are saved by grace and not works.

We need to take into account what the bible actually says. I do believe that Jesus has the authority to judge everyone but he has gifted the disciples with the nation of Israel as it says in Matthew 19:20.
“And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”
It is pretty clear.

I am assuming you mean Matthew 19:28 (not 20)

What about the twelve tribes of Israel which the apostles were to judge?

“the Israel of God“refers to those people who are new creations in the Christ (Galatians 6:15,16). Both Jews and Gentiles alike (Galatians 3:26-28).

Christians are now “the people of God” (1 Peter 2:9,10). So, Jesus’ words about “the twelve tribes of Israel” was a symbolic reference to the people of God, the Lord’s church, just as He Himself now reigns over the spiritual “house of Jacob” (Luke 1:31-33).

Judgement of all (for all time) is totally up to Jesus and all judgement has taken place .... He has separated the sheep from the goats.

When He returns judgement for all for all time has taken place, by Him and Him alone.

1Tonne · Feb 25, 2023

eleos1954 said:
I am assuming you mean Matthew 19:28 (not 20)

Correct. I have just changed the verse. Thanks for pointing that out.

eleos1954 said:
“the Israel of God“refers to those people who are new creations in the Christ (Galatians 6:15,16). Both Jews and Gentiles alike (Galatians 3:26-28).

I prefer not to assume things like this.

Believers are Gods people, but God, through John wrote in Rev 7:4-8, the 12 tribes for a reason. I do not think it is good to then put a symbolic meaning on it if it already makes sense.

eleos1954 · Feb 25, 2023

1Tonne said:
Correct. I have just changed the verse. Thanks for pointing that out.

I prefer not to assume things like this.

Believers are Gods people, but God, through John wrote in Rev 7:4-8, the 12 tribes for a reason. I do not think it is good to then put a symbolic meaning on it if it already makes sense.

After the death of Christ everything became spiritual ..... The new Jerusalem is in heaven in the heavenly sanctuary and Christ minsters from there. There is no more need for a earthly sanctuary (Jesus is our High Priest and ministers from the heavenly sanctuary) .... the purpose of the earthly sanctuary was put in place so we would know how salvation would take place ........ through Jesus.

The Bible tells us that this heavenly sanctuary is one that “the Lord pitched, and not man” (Hebrews 8:2, KJV).

The earthly sanctuary was a “copy and shadow of the heavenly things” (Hebrews 8:5, NKJV). It was modeled after the heavenly sanctuary, which was shown to Moses, so we could learn about what happens in Heaven.

“For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf” (Hebrews 9:24, ESV).

The earthly sanctuary service symbolized the ministry of Jesus in the heavenly Sanctuary.

eleos1954 · Feb 25, 2023

1Tonne said:
Correct. I have just changed the verse. Thanks for pointing that out.

I prefer not to assume things like this.

Believers are Gods people, but God, through John wrote in Rev 7:4-8, the 12 tribes for a reason. I do not think it is good to then put a symbolic meaning on it if it already makes sense.

It's not an assumption .... keep studying .... see my other post (reply back to you) about the sanctuary.

1Tonne · Feb 25, 2023

eleos1954 said:
After the death of Christ everything became spiritual .....

Revelation was written sometime around 90-96ad. So, after Jesus's death. If John knew that everything was spiritual and no longer actually what he saw, then why did he write the 12 tribes? Does not make sense. If he knew it was spiritual, and it did not mean what he saw or heard, then he would have explained it in such a way so that we understood that it was "all believers," and not Israel.
Yes, there is a lot of symbolism within Revelation, but the entire book is not symbolic. If it writes in a way that is apocalyptic, like a woman riding a scarlet beast with seven heads and ten horns, the of course it is symbolic. The reason for this, is God did not want John to spill the beans about what was going to happen. It would be revealed in Gods time.
I also understand that John says that he was in the spirit. This simply means that he was not in the physical. So, he had a dream or an out of body experience. It does not mean that everything was mystical and needs to have other meanings.
Many believers add mystical/symbolic meanings where they do not need to be added.

rturner76 · Feb 25, 2023

1Tonne said:
Many believers add mystical/symbolic meanings where they do not need to be added.

Is Revelations litoral or symbolic?

1Tonne · Feb 25, 2023

Yes and no. As I said, there is apocalyptic writing but there is also just stuff John sees that is not symbolic. It is literal. Just because someone has a vision or out of body experience, does not mean that everything they see has to be taken as symbolic.

eleos1954 · Mar 1, 2023

1Tonne said:
Agreed. That is one thing I also point them to. As well as the fact that we are saved by grace and not works.

We need to take into account what the bible actually says. I do believe that Jesus has the authority to judge everyone but he has gifted the disciples with the nation of Israel as it says in Matthew 19:28.
“And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”
It is pretty clear.

When Jesus returns ... the first resurrection happens (of all the saved) all judgement has taken place before His return.

Acts 10:42
And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.

John 5:22
For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,

1 Peter 4:5
They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

John 5:24-29
'Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Psalm 9:7-8
But the LORD shall endure forever;
He has prepared His throne for judgment.
He shall judge the world in righteousness,
And He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.

Revelation 15:4
Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.'

Pretty clear.

1Tonne · Mar 1, 2023

eleos1954 said:
When Jesus returns ... the first resurrection happens (of all the saved) all judgement has taken place before His return.

The first resurrection is only for the martyrs who kept to the testimony of Christ. They are the beheaded. As stated in verse 4 of Revelation 20. We cannot ignore this. This in no way says every believer.

Then in verse 5 it specifically states that every other person who was not beheaded for their faith, so believer and non-believer, will not be raised at this point. They are raised after the 1000 years and that is when they will all face the Great White Throne Judgement.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

eleos1954 said:
John 5:22
For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,

Correct. Jesus does judge everyone at the Great White Throne Judgement. But as Jesus said, He gave the disciples the authority to judge the nation of Israel.
Matt 19:28 "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
This cannot be ignored either.

eleos1954 · Mar 1, 2023

1Tonne said:
The first resurrection is only for the martyrs who kept to the testimony of Christ. They are the beheaded. As stated in verse 4 of Revelation 20. We cannot ignore this. This in no way says every believer.

Then in verse 5 it specifically states that every other person who was not beheaded for their faith, so believer and non-believer, will not be raised at this point. They are raised after the 1000 years and that is when they will all face the Great White Throne Judgement.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Correct. Jesus does judge everyone at the Great White Throne Judgement. But as Jesus said, He gave the disciples the authority to judge the nation of Israel.
Matt 19:28 "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
This cannot be ignored either.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Those in the 1st resurrection are those who are dormant in the grave ..... not just martyrs.

It's not about physical Israel .... it's about spiritual Israel

Galatians 3:28

English Standard Version
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Jesus is the true Israel ..... everything is fulfilled through Him.

The “latter days,” Israel’s prophets speak of Gentiles being identified with Israel (see Isaiah 19:24-25; 56:3, 6-8; 66:18-21; Zechariah 2:11).

As the gospel goes out to all the earth (the Gentile nations), Christians become members of Israel through union with Christ–the true Israel (Isaiah 44:1-5).

Those who are of faith are children of Abraham (Galatians 3:7-9, 21). Every believer in Jesus, Jew or Gentile, is a member of the “Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16). In Philippians 3:2-3, Gentile Christians are said to be “the circumcision.” In Romans 9:25-26, the Gentiles are called “my people.”

1Tonne · Mar 1, 2023

eleos1954 said:
1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Those in the 1st resurrection are those who are dormant in the grave ..... not just martyrs.

It's not about physical Israel .... it's about spiritual Israel

So, the question is, does Christ come once or twice? I believe twice. You will see in Rev 20:1-3 that Satin is abound during Christs 1000-year reign. So, Christ comes the first time when he brings with him the martyrs. They reign for 1000 years. Then after the 1000-year reign, we see that Satan has control. Not Christ. I believe that Christ is no longer there. (Rev 20:7-9)
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city,....
Then at the end of verse 9 it says that Satan is then defeated by a fire that comes from heaven. "and fire came down from heaven and devoured them" I believe this is when everyone left, alive and dead, believer and non-believer will meet Christ in the clouds to go to the Great White Throne Judgement.

So,
Verse 13-14 is speaking of those that have fallen asleep in Christ Jesus. This is not actually meaning all people who believed. We can deduct who they are by what the Bible says about the first resurrection of the dead. That it is only those that are beheaded for their faith Rev 20:4-6.
Then verse 15 says that those who have fallen asleep, that is the martyrs who reign for 1000 years will precede all the other believers. So, Christ will come back (the first time) and reign for 1000 year with the martyrs.

Verse 16 speaks just reiterates that the martyrs will be raised first as in Rev 20:4-6
Then verse 17 is speaking from a first-person viewpoint at the end of time. So, after the 1000 years, all who are, dead and alive, believer and non-believer will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air and then face the Great White Throne.

eleos1954 · Mar 1, 2023

1Tonne said:
So, the question is, does Christ come once or twice? I believe twice. You will see in Rev 20:1-3 that Satin is abound during Christs 1000-year reign. So, Christ comes the first time when he brings with him the martyrs. They reign for 1000 years. Then after the 1000-year reign, we see that Satan has control. Not Christ. I believe that Christ is no longer there. (Rev 20:7-9)
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city,....
Then at the end of verse 9 it says that Satan is then defeated by a fire that comes from heaven. "and fire came down from heaven and devoured them" I believe this is when everyone left, alive and dead, believer and non-believer will meet Christ in the clouds to go to the Great White Throne Judgement.

So,
Verse 13-14 is speaking of those that have fallen asleep in Christ Jesus. This is not actually meaning all people who believed. We can deduct who they are by what the Bible says about the first resurrection of the dead. That it is only those that are beheaded for their faith Rev 20:4-6.
Then verse 15 says that those who have fallen asleep, that is the martyrs who reign for 1000 years will precede all the other believers. So, Christ will come back (the first time) and reign for 1000 year with the martyrs.

Verse 16 speaks just reiterates that the martyrs will be raised first as in Rev 20:4-6
Then verse 17 is speaking from a first-person viewpoint at the end of time. So, after the 1000 years, all who are, dead and alive, believer and non-believer will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air and then face the Great White Throne.

When Jesus returns judgement has taken place .... when Jesus returns .... the 1st resurrection occurs (of the saved dead) any alive at that time are translated ..... all are taken to heaven for the 1 thousand years ... those not taken to heaven are consumed/destroyed.

2 Thessalonians 4

King James Bible
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Revelation 20

Satan Bound

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image (not just MARTYRs) and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead (2nd resurrection) did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Jesus provided everything needed for salvation (for all time) when He was on earth in the form of a man and shed HIs blood on the cross. He ministers from the sanctuary in heaven (the real one) .... judgement has taken place before His return .... there is no reason for a earthly reign by Him. It is finished. There is not one judgement of one ethnic group of people and then a later judgement for another ethnic group of people. God is not a racist .... He treats everyone the same .... always has.

The Great White Throne judgement is of the resurrected evil dead, satan and his angels (after the 1,000 years) and that is the battle of gog and magog and God destroys everything .... and then makes everything anew for eternity (new heavens & earth) .... no sin, no death AMEN!!!!! and we will dwell with Him forever .... AMEN!!!

There are sheep and there are goats .... nothing to do with one's ethnicity, sex, free or bond etc.

1Tonne · Mar 1, 2023

eleos1954 said:
2 Thessalonians 2:8
King James Bible
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This matches up with the end of Revelation 20:9 which is after the 1000 years. "and fire came down from heaven and devoured them".
When Christ returns after Satan's short reign which is after the 1000 years, he shall consume the wicked with fire.

eleos1954 said:
and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image (not just MARTYRs) and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

This is an interesting one. But we can look at Rev 6:11 and Rev 7:4-8 to see more specifically who they are. They are not every believer.
Rev 6:11. Says that the martyrs are given white robes and have to wait for the rest of the martyrs.
And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told that they were to rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also.
So, it was the martyrs who were given a white robe. This does not mention anyone else apart from the martyrs. You can identify them by their white robs.
Rev 7:4-8 then describes how John hears the number of people who are to be martyred and he hears where they come from. He does not see them. He only describes them as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. If we do not stop reading at verse 8 and continue, I believe that John actually sees the martyrs. That is the 144,000. He also describes them. So, verses 9-17 describes what he sees. He sees an amazing crowd, so massive that he could not count them. Imagine seeing 144,000 people. It would seem impossible to count. These people came from all over the world. Now before WW2, the Jewish people were scattered everywhere throughout the world, but all the long, they kept their identity. Then Israel, the country, was formed in 1948 and the Jewish people started to return. Thus, the wording, “of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues”.
Verse 9 also mentions that that these 144,000 are the ones with the white robes which were given out in Rev 6:11. So, this points specifically to Jewish people who give their lives for Christ.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, …….. Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Jewish people who give their lives for the testimony of Christ are the ones who will reign for 1000 years.

eleos1954 said:
There is not one judgement of one ethnic group of people and then a later judgement for another ethnic group of people.

When the judges come out in Rev 20:4, this is only to judge the people who have given their lives for the testimony of Christ. I believe that the remaining Jews will be judged in the same way but when everyone else is judge. Jesus judges the world, and the disciples judge the Jews.

eleos1954 said:
God is not a racist ....

Just because God chooses a particular group does not mean he is racist.
Afterall, in the Old Testament, He originally chose the Jewish people to look after the law. And I do not believe he was being racist in the Old Testament when he done this.

eleos1954 said:
The Great White Throne judgement is of the resurrected evil dead, satan and his angels (after the 1,000 years) and that is the battle of gog and magog and God destroys everything .... and then makes everything anew for eternity (new heavens & earth) .... no sin, no death AMEN!!!!! and we will dwell with Him forever .... AMEN!!!

There is nothing in Revelation 20:11-15 that says the GWT Judgement is only for unbelievers. It describes everyone great and small. Then if their name was not found in the book of life, they are thrown into the lake of fire. So, the believers do have to give an account at the Great White Throne, but they are not condemned.

eleos1954 said:
There are sheep and there are goats ....

The sheep and goat judgement is the GWT judgement. As he separates, he makes a judgement call. Is this a sheep (believers) or a goat (unbelievers).
Matt 25:32-33 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.
See how they gathered them all at the same time. So, he gathers the believers and non-believers at the same time. This is at the end of time. The GWT judgement. They are then separated.

eleos1954 · Mar 3, 2023

1Tonne said:
Revelation was written sometime around 90-96ad. So, after Jesus's death. If John knew that everything was spiritual and no longer actually what he saw, then why did he write the 12 tribes? Does not make sense. If he knew it was spiritual, and it did not mean what he saw or heard, then he would have explained it in such a way so that we understood that it was "all believers," and not Israel.
Yes, there is a lot of symbolism within Revelation, but the entire book is not symbolic. If it writes in a way that is apocalyptic, like a woman riding a scarlet beast with seven heads and ten horns, the of course it is symbolic. The reason for this, is God did not want John to spill the beans about what was going to happen. It would be revealed in Gods time.
I also understand that John says that he was in the spirit. This simply means that he was not in the physical. So, he had a dream or an out of body experience. It does not mean that everything was mystical and needs to have other meanings.
Many believers add mystical/symbolic meanings where they do not need to be added.

otherwise.
The prophets wrote about what their visions were ..... they often did not know what they meant .... unless they were told by an angel or revealed to them otherwise

Think about this a little bit .... actually think about this a lot ;o)

type - anti type
A type is a symbol appointed by God to adumbrate ( foreshadow or symbolize higher) in the future, which is called the antitype.

I also understand that John says that he was in the spirit. This simply means that he was not in the physical.

No it does not "simply mean that" (that comes from the belief of an immortal "spirit" - we are not immortal in any way) , John was under the power of the Holy Spirit (in the spirit) and was given a vision by the Holy Spirit (in the spirit) and he wrote about it.

You are assuming he was not in the physical ..... he was in the physical and he was in vision .... under the power of the Holy Spirit. Only God
knows the future and when He reveals things (through the Holy Spirit) it is often using symbols that we can relate to .... and/or .... "like" things that have happened in the past (history).

eleos1954 · Mar 3, 2023

1Tonne said:
The first resurrection is only for the martyrs who kept to the testimony of Christ. They are the beheaded. As stated in verse 4 of Revelation 20. We cannot ignore this. This in no way says every believer.

Then in verse 5 it specifically states that every other person who was not beheaded for their faith, so believer and non-believer, will not be raised at this point. They are raised after the 1000 years and that is when they will all face the Great White Throne Judgement.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Correct. Jesus does judge everyone at the Great White Throne Judgement. But as Jesus said, He gave the disciples the authority to judge the nation of Israel.
Matt 19:28 "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
This cannot be ignored either.

Jesus has all authority ..... he did not .... does not give it to anyone.

Matthew 28

18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Authority was given to the apostles to preach the gospel .... not judgement, just as we also have the responsibility of preaching the gospel as well.

Jesus judges all ... and it has taken place before He returns.

Jesus said that everyone who has died will be raised from the dead and be judged John 5:26-29

28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Something that may help against Jehovah's Witnesses

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