Is popular sovereignty a myth?

BillMcEnaney · Feb 18, 2023

Everyone,

I'm a patriotic American monarchist finding it hard to feel at home in my country, especially now during the Biden administration. When you're a counter-revolutionary like me, it may be hard for you to approve of the American Revolution. I'm not a political junkie since I hate politics, but I enjoy political philosophy. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on this article. Don't worry. I won't run for office when anyone expects me to be a hypocrite.

A Tale of Two Catholic Politicians: J.F.K. vs. Hilaire Belloc

Hilaire Belloc won a seat in the English parliament despite anti-Catholic bigotry, and he did it by confidently owning his religion. J.F.K did the opposite.

aleteia.org

God bless,
Bill

Pommer · Feb 19, 2023

BillMcEnaney said:
I'm a patriotic American monarchist finding it hard to feel at home in my country, especially now during the Biden administration. When you're a counter-revolutionary like me, it may be hard for you to approve of the American Revolution. I'm not a political junkie since I hate politics, but I enjoy political philosophy. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on this article. Don't worry. I won't run for office when anyone expects me to be a hypocrite.

A Tale of Two Catholic Politicians: J.F.K. vs. Hilaire Belloc

Hilaire Belloc won a seat in the English parliament despite anti-Catholic bigotry, and he did it by confidently owning his religion. J.F.K did the opposite.

aleteia.org

God bless,
Bill

Both embracing and eschewing one’s religion is a “valid” political strategy, it takes a person of principle to live by their principles.
If it turned out that the Vatican was sending over secret Eucharists for Kennedy White House “Masses”, I’d lose respect for 35.

Kennedy faced a U.S. electorate that had never voted in a Catholic though Al Smith (almost) got the nod a couple of times, back when Presidential candidates were chosen by real, actual “politics” and not by the “popularity-show-for-the-masses” that primaries have become.

Enjoy your night.

Fantine · Feb 19, 2023

Interesting.
Two politicians running for office in two different countries and in a time span covering 54 years.
Here's some of my views:
JFK never carried his rosary and went to daily Mass as Belloc did. But you know who does say the Rosary and go to Daily Mass whenever possible? Joe Biden. So now we have 3 people in the mix. Belloc, a devout Catholic who accepted its edicts without question. JFK, a less devout Catholic who believed in the primacy of conscience. Biden, a devout Catholic who also is guided by his conscience and the Church.
Remember, our own Pope Francis said (as quoted in US Catholic's election issue) that the Church should "inform" consciences but not "replace" them.
Before you bring up those divisive social issues, let me remind you that Biden's and the Democratic Party's positions on almost every social justice and human rights issue are about 99% closer to Catholicism than the Republican Party's.
I do not equate exercising one's prudential conscience as an indication of "lack of integrity."

There are many politicians who are devout members of their churches--but if I thought their churches were "replacing" their consciences I'd run in the other direction. For example, Focus on the Family once gave me a questionnaire through my daughter's preschool. I agreed with quite a few of their questions but when I saw that they thought that gun rights was a "very Christian thing to support" I ripped the questionnaire up.

A politician could tell me that he could feel the power of God talking through his preacher about the importance of guns in Christian families, and it wouldn't matter. I'd be outta there, because guns make my conscience run cold.

So Hillaire Belloc wannabes, you can be Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, LDS, but if you tell me that your Church's teachings "replace" your conscience you're not getting my vote.

BillMcEnaney · Feb 19, 2023

Pommer said:
Both embracing and eschewing one’s religion is a “valid” political strategy, it takes a person of principle to live by their principles.
If it turned out that the Vatican was sending over secret Eucharists for Kennedy White House “Masses”, I’d lose respect for 35.

Kennedy faced a U.S. electorate that had never voted in a Catholic though Al Smith (almost) got the nod a couple of times, back when Presidential candidates were chosen by real, actual “politics” and not by the “popularity-show-for-the-masses” that primaries have become.

Enjoy your night.

President Biden's hypocrisy may be expedient for him. But if I did what he does, I probably would think my political career trumped my relationship with God. Sounds like a good, though subtle, way to break the first commandment by treating a political career, a cause, public opinion, or something like that as an idol. President Biden doesn't want to force his religious beliefs on anyone. Nobody is asking him to do that either, But there's a major difference between coercion and helping millions of people do something when you know it's evil in itself. If I used Biden's strategy, I wouldn't be like Belloc. I'd be a coward.

Thanks. I hope you enjoyed your night, too.

Pommer · Feb 19, 2023

BillMcEnaney said:
President Biden's hypocrisy may be expedient for him. But if I did what he does, I probably would think my political career trumped my relationship with God. Sounds like a good, though subtle, way to break the first commandment by treating a political career, a cause, public opinion, or something like that as an idol. President Biden doesn't want to force his religious beliefs on anyone. Nobody is asking him to do that either, But there's a major difference between coercion and helping millions of people do something when you know it's evil in itself. If I used Biden's strategy, I wouldn't be like Belloc. I'd be a coward.

Thanks. I hope you enjoyed your night, too.

It’s a good thing that you (seem to) already dislike Biden (politically, at least) as it’ll save you the trouble of having to adjust your opinion of him.

durangodawood · Feb 19, 2023

BillMcEnaney said:
President Biden's hypocrisy may be expedient for him. But if I did what he does, I probably would think my political career trumped my relationship with God. Sounds like a good, though subtle, way to break the first commandment by treating a political career, a cause, public opinion, or something like that as an idol. President Biden doesn't want to force his religious beliefs on anyone. Nobody is asking him to do that either, But there's a major difference between coercion and helping millions of people do something when you know it's evil in itself. If I used Biden's strategy, I wouldn't be like Belloc. I'd be a coward.

Thanks. I hope you enjoyed your night, too.

Whats the hypocrisy? I dont see Biden demanding other follow rules that he wont submit to.

BillMcEnaney · Feb 19, 2023

durangodawood said:
Whats the hypocrisy? I dont see Biden demanding other follow rules that he wont submit to.

He refuses to obey the Catholic Church when it insists that publicly pro-abortion politicians should abstain from Holy Communion. He tells us that he's a devout pro-life Catholic who agrees with what the Church teaches about abortion. But he still strives to help mothers do what he knows they shouldn't do. For Catholics, deliberate abortion is always murder because a new human person begins to live when his father's sperm fertilizes his mother's egg. The President would want me to go to prison if I shot my next-door neighbors to death in cold blood. But he sees no problem with letting mothers hire doctors to brutally kill babies who can't defend themselves.

Maybe you remember that Archbishop Chaput excommunicated the President publicly by name, he removed him from the Catholic Church. The President still believes that he's a Catholic. But to return to Catholicism, he'll need to revert to it.

BillMcEnaney · Feb 19, 2023

Pommer said:
It’s a good thing that you (seem to) already dislike Biden (politically, at least) as it’ll save you the trouble of having to adjust your opinion of him.

I like the man. But I believe his stand on abortion is morally evil. If he dies impenitently, he may not go to heaven. So I pray daily for him because his salvation is not a sure thing. Neither is mine.

GreatLakes4Ever · Feb 19, 2023

BillMcEnaney said:
He refuses to obey the Catholic Church when it insists that publicly pro-abortion politicians should abstain from Holy Communion. He tells us that he's a devout pro-life Catholic who agrees with what the Church teaches about abortion. But he still strives to help mothers do what he knows they shouldn't do. For Catholics, deliberate abortion is always murder because a new human person begins to live when his father's sperm fertilizes his mother's egg. The President would want me to go to prison if I shot my next-door neighbors to death in cold blood. But he sees no problem with letting mothers hire doctors to brutally kill babies who can't defend themselves.

Maybe you remember that Archbishop Chaput excommunicated the President publicly by name, he removed him from the Catholic Church. The President still believes that he's a Catholic. But to return to Catholicism, he'll need to revert to it.

I tried finding an article on Joe Biden being excommunicated. Do you have an information to back up this claim that Archbishop Chaput excommunicated Biden?

Pommer · Feb 19, 2023

BillMcEnaney said:
He refuses to obey the Catholic Church when it insists that publicly pro-abortion politicians should abstain from Holy Communion. He tells us that he's a devout pro-life Catholic who agrees with what the Church teaches about abortion. But he still strives to help mothers do what he knows they shouldn't do. For Catholics, deliberate abortion is always murder because a new human person begins to live when his father's sperm fertilizes his mother's egg. The President would want me to go to prison if I shot my next-door neighbors to death in cold blood. But he sees no problem with letting mothers hire doctors to brutally kill babies who can't defend themselves.

Maybe you remember that Archbishop Chaput excommunicated the President publicly by name, he removed him from the Catholic Church. The President still believes that he's a Catholic. But to return to Catholicism, he'll need to revert to it.

Your case for Biden’s hypocrisy would have a firmer foundation if he were head of state in Brazil or some other predominantly Catholic nation.

BillMcEnaney · Feb 19, 2023

Someone asked me for evidence that Archbishop Chaput excommunicated President Biden. So here it is. His Excellency needs to give up the vague ecumenical language and say exactly what he means.

Archbishop Chaput: ‘Biden is not in communion with the Catholic faith’

Archbishop Charles Chaput said on Saturday that Joe Biden “is not in communion with the Catholic faith” and that “any priest who now provides Communion to the president participates in his hypocrisy.”

www.catholicnewsagency.com

Fantine · Feb 19, 2023

BillMcEnaney said:
Someone asked me for evidence that Archbishop Chaput excommunicated President Biden. So here it is. His Excellency needs to give up the vague ecumenical language and say exactly what he means.

Archbishop Chaput: ‘Biden is not in communion with the Catholic faith’

Archbishop Charles Chaput said on Saturday that Joe Biden “is not in communion with the Catholic faith” and that “any priest who now provides Communion to the president participates in his hypocrisy.”

www.catholicnewsagency.com

Archbishop Chaput had no authority to excommunicate President Biden. He does not reside in the Diocese of Philadelphia.

The latest that I've heard is that bishops can make a decision to refuse Communion to a politician who supports a woman's right to choose. That would include people like Chief Justice John Roberts, who tries to add a wee bit of balance to an outrageously unbalanced court.

Neither Cardinal Gregory in Washington nor Biden's bishop in Delaware, probably seeing some of the politicians who "would" be allowed Communion while Biden was not (shudder), have exercised such an edict.

Archbishop Chaput's inflexibility cost him a Cardinal's position which was given instead to Cardinal Tobin of Newark. Newark? Newark?

I have never heard Chaput speak, but I heard Cardinal Tobin speak at a conference once and strongly concur.

GreatLakes4Ever · Feb 19, 2023

BillMcEnaney said:
Someone asked me for evidence that Archbishop Chaput excommunicated President Biden. So here it is. His Excellency needs to give up the vague ecumenical language and say exactly what he means.

Archbishop Chaput: ‘Biden is not in communion with the Catholic faith’

Archbishop Charles Chaput said on Saturday that Joe Biden “is not in communion with the Catholic faith” and that “any priest who now provides Communion to the president participates in his hypocrisy.”

www.catholicnewsagency.com

Excommunication is a very specific term and nothing in that article showed Chaput doing it. As @Fantine noted, Chaput lacks the jurisdictional authority to excommunicate Biden if he even wanted to and reading that article, it feels like a stretch to say Chaput is trying to go that route. Perhaps there is a different article that shows Chaput excommunicating Biden that you are claiming.

BillMcEnaney · Feb 19, 2023

Fantine said:
Interesting.
Two politicians running for office in two different countries and in a time span covering 54 years.
Here's some of my views:
JFK never carried his rosary and went to daily Mass as Belloc did. But you know who does say the Rosary and go to Daily Mass whenever possible? Joe Biden. So now we have 3 people in the mix. Belloc, a devout Catholic who accepted its edicts without question. JFK, a less devout Catholic who believed in the primacy of conscience. Biden, a devout Catholic who also is guided by his conscience and the Church.
Remember, our own Pope Francis said (as quoted in US Catholic's election issue) that the Church should "inform" consciences but not "replace" them.
Before you bring up those divisive social issues, let me remind you that Biden's and the Democratic Party's positions on almost every social justice and human rights issue are about 99% closer to Catholicism than the Republican Party's.
I do not equate exercising one's prudential conscience as an indication of "lack of integrity."

There are many politicians who are devout members of their churches--but if I thought their churches were "replacing" their consciences I'd run in the other direction. For example, Focus on the Family once gave me a questionnaire through my daughter's preschool. I agreed with quite a few of their questions but when I saw that they thought that gun rights was a "very Christian thing to support" I ripped the questionnaire up.

A politician could tell me that he could feel the power of God talking through his preacher about the importance of guns in Christian families, and it wouldn't matter. I'd be outta there, because guns make my conscience run cold.

So Hillaire Belloc wannabes, you can be Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, LDS, but if you tell me that your Church's teachings "replace" your conscience you're not getting my vote.

I'm not sure what you mean by "replace my conscience." So please tell us what you do to ensure that your conscience warns you when it should do that. Some people have misinformed consciences telling that some actions are okay when they're not. My conscience will stop complaining about the theft if I steal chewing gum often enough at the grocery store. But the stealing is still a sin. Sometimes I may need to obey my misinformed conscience. But after I discover that it fooled me, I need to retrain it.

Maybe you'll need to write more precisely about your conscience because some may think you're a postmodern relativist distinguishing between your truth and my truth. "Your truth" may stand for what you believe, and "my truth" may signify" what I believe. So I ask those people, "Who's right, you, I or both?" If I say, "That's true for you, but it's not true for me," that means merely that you believe something I don't believe.

I reject religious liberty if it means that everyone has a God-given right to practice any religion he prefers. Does God give me a right to be a Satanist? Of course not. Though I think it's immoral to force anyone to practice any religion, I think God wants everyone to be Catholic because Christ founded Catholicism. So here's some evidence from the Council of Ephesus that met in 431.

Finally, Celestine himself, after the conclusion of the whole matter, sends a letter to the holy Council of Ephesus, which he thus begins: “At length we must rejoice at the conclusion of evils.” The learned reader understands where he recognizes the conclusion; that is, after the condemnation of Nestorius by the infallible authority of an Ecumenical Council, viz., of the whole Catholic Church. He proceeds: “We see, that you, with us, have executed this matter so faithfully transacted.” All decree, and all execute, that is, by giving a common judgment. Whence Celestine adds, “We have been informed of a just deposition, and a still juster exaltation:” the deposition of Nestorius, begun, indeed, by the Roman See, but brought to a conclusion by the sentence of the Council; to a full and complete settlement, as we have seen above: the exaltation of Maximianus, who was substituted in place of Nestorius immediately after the Ephesine decrees; this is the conclusion of the question. Even Celestine himself recognises this conclusion to lie not in his own examination and judgment, but in that of an Ecumenical Council. And this was done in that Council in which it is admitted that the authority of the Apostolic See was most clearly set forth, not only by words, but by deeds, of any since the birth of Christ. At least the Holy Council gives credence to Philip uttering these true and magnificent encomiums, concerning the dignity of the Apostolic See, and “Peter the head and pillar of the Faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, and by Christ’s authority administering the keys, who to this very time lives ever, and exercises judgment, in his successors.” This, he says, after having seen all the Acts of the Council itself, which we have mentioned, so that we may indeed understand, that all these privileges of Peter and the Apostolic See entirely agree with the decrees of the Council, and the judgment entered into afresh, and deliberation upon matters of Faith held after the Apostolic See.

Again, I'm not trying to coerce anyone into becoming Catholic. I quote it because I believe other Christians practice different religions. St. Paul tells the Ephesians that there's one Lord, one faith, i.e,, on religion, and one baptism. So there's only one true one, it thr one to teach my conscience what to forbid what to allow.

Philip Schaff: NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

ccel.org

Fantine · Feb 19, 2023

You would have to ask Pope Francis. I assume he means that we are not to be robotic legalists and rule slaves. I think he meant that we need to struggle with our decisions and thoughtfully discern.
God doesn't run our lives through a scantron when we die.
Every "sin" is complex and individual.
If you know why I voted for pro-choice Biden instead of pro-life
(??cough, choke, sputter) Donald Trump the reasons are numerous and compelling--so much so that the Pope felt called to make a quote telling us not to let an edict replace our common sense compassion.

durangodawood · Feb 20, 2023

BillMcEnaney said:
He refuses to obey the Catholic Church when it insists that publicly pro-abortion politicians should abstain from Holy Communion. He tells us that he's a devout pro-life Catholic who agrees with what the Church teaches about abortion. But he still strives to help mothers do what he knows they shouldn't do. For Catholics, deliberate abortion is always murder because a new human person begins to live when his father's sperm fertilizes his mother's egg. The President would want me to go to prison if I shot my next-door neighbors to death in cold blood. But he sees no problem with letting mothers hire doctors to brutally kill babies who can't defend themselves.

Maybe you remember that Archbishop Chaput excommunicated the President publicly by name, he removed him from the Catholic Church. The President still believes that he's a Catholic. But to return to Catholicism, he'll need to revert to it.

I can understand how youd find his position on abortion rights to be immoral. But you have not identified anything that fits the meaning of hypocrisy.

Hans Blaster · Feb 20, 2023

BillMcEnaney said:
I reject religious liberty if it means that everyone has a God-given right to practice any religion he prefers.

Well, since rights are given by gods, then maybe the first amendment is safe.

BillMcEnaney said:
Does God give me a right to be a Satanist? Of course not.

But the Constitution does, and the Constitution is the law of the land.

BillMcEnaney said:
Though I think it's immoral to force anyone to practice any religion, I think God wants everyone to be Catholic because Christ founded Catholicism.

I think "God's opinion" about what religion people should have (or rather what gods should be worshiped) is pretty clear.

Then there is this:

BillMcEnaney said:
I'm a patriotic American monarchist finding it hard to feel at home in my country, especially now during the Biden administration.

A monarchist? What is wrong with you?

Rejecting natural rights to freedom of conscious and supporting rule by genetic right. Are you sure you can honestly call your self a "patriotic American"?

Fantine · Feb 20, 2023

The President would want me to go to prison if I shot my next-door neighbors to death in cold blood. But he sees no problem with letting mothers hire doctors to brutally kill babies who can't defend themselves.

Actually, an enormous problem in this country is that so many states have virtually given gun owners "licenses to kill." There are laws allowing people to shoot fleeing suspects (perhaps running off with a TV) in the back. Is that what America is, a country where a homeowner can kill someone for taking a TV?

If a police officer shot an unarmed suspect, he would be suspended while an extensive investigation would be conducted. But Joe Sixpack can kill an unarmed person running away in the back without any punishment because of a "castle" law?

That is one of the many abuses of the Second Amendment that the legislators you call "pro-life" inflict upon the rest of us.

Brihaha · Feb 20, 2023

I am grateful that monarchists do not feel comfortable in America yet....Most Americans have thoroughly enjoyed our liberation for nearly 247 years my friend!

Yttrium · Feb 20, 2023

BillMcEnaney said:
He refuses to obey the Catholic Church when it insists that publicly pro-abortion politicians should abstain from Holy Communion.

If I found out that a politician was obeying a church leader, especially a foreign leader, I would never vote for that person. Now, I don't mind if politicians follow their religious convictions as long as they don't try to impose religion on us. No religious leader should be telling our president what to do.

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