What is a successful (good) creation for God?

public hermit · Jan 21, 2023

Der Alte said:
Sorry amigo you don't get to ignore my posts then send me off on a wild goose chase about some other vss.

I wasn't sending you off. You know Jonah. I was just asking you to think about it. And, despite your avoidance tactic, I answered your question with the exact post to which you are responding.

But I relent and will oblige because the point is simple to make. There is no contradiction. God desires all to be saved and wills all to be saved. According to the relevant ECFs, Jonah is an image of Universal Restoration. Jonah gives you an example of God promising destruction (3:4) and yet having mercy (3:10). Why did God have mercy? They repented, which according to the ECFs that taught UR is what will happen after the end of the ages, and all have been purified in the unquenchable fire of God's love, so that every knee bends and every tongue willingly confesses Jesus Christ as Lord.

Jonah also gives us an example of someone who is very angry because God is merciful to sinners (4:1). In fact, Jonah says he knew God was "ready to relent from punishing," which is why he was so angry (4.2)!

Do we need a better image of proponents of ECT who begrudge the everlasting mercy of God on those they deem "unworthy" of divine grace while they presume upon grace as if it is owed to them? I think not.

I know this will likely have little effect on you if your usual stance is maintained, and so be it. But I was not sending you off as if to avoid your comment.

Der Alte · Jan 21, 2023

public hermit said:
I wasn't sending you off. You know Jonah. I was just asking you to think about it. And, despite your avoidance tactic, I answered your question with the exact post to which you are responding.
But I relent and will oblige because the point is simple to make. There is no contradiction. God desires all to be saved and wills all to be saved. According to the relevant ECFs, Jonah is an image of Universal Restoration. Jonah gives you an example of God promising destruction (3:4) and yet having mercy (3:10). Why did God have mercy? They repented, which according to the ECFs that taught UR is what will happen after the end of the ages, and all have been purified in the unquenchable fire of God's love, so that every knee bends and every tongue willingly confesses Jesus Christ as Lord.
Jonah also gives us an example of someone who is very angry because God is merciful to sinners (4:1). In fact, Jonah says he knew God was "ready to relent from punishing," which is why he was so angry (4.2)!
Do we need a better image of proponents of ECT who begrudge the everlasting mercy of God on those they deem "unworthy" of divine grace while they presume upon grace as if it is owed to them? I think not.
I know this will likely have little effect on you if your usual stance is maintained, and so be it. But I was not sending you off as if to avoid your comment.

What any ECF taught about anything is meaningless unless they quote supporting scripture.
I do NOT appreciate you deliberately misrepresenting anything I have posted.
This is patently false. "proponents of ECT who begrudge the everlasting mercy of God on those they deem 'unworthy' of divine grace while they presume upon grace as if it is owed to them?" I would not be here day after day if any of that was true.
What happened to Jonah may or may not relate to anyone else. What happened to Pharaoh? When was he saved?
Maybe I missed this, but did you ever specifically address any scripture I quoted?
If UR was true we should see at least one vs., 2 or more would be better, spoken by the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, stating unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, even after death.

Aaron112 · Jan 21, 2023

Der Alte said:
What any ECF taught about anything is meaningless unless they quote supporting scripture.
I do NOT appreciate you deliberately misrepresenting anything I have posted.
This is patently false. "proponents of ECT who begrudge the everlasting mercy of God on those they deem 'unworthy' of divine grace while they presume upon grace as if it is owed to them?" I would not be here day after day if any of that was true.
What happened to Jonah may or may not relate to anyone else. What happened to Pharaoh? When was he saved?
Maybe I missed this, but did you ever specifically address any scripture I quoted?
If UR was true we should see at least one vs., 2 or more would be better, spoken by the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, stating unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, even after death.

The false gospels, which are not supposed to be permitted in the assembly of believers, which in truth are not permitted in the assembly of 'true' believers , are very popular, and won't be silenced until Jesus Returns, possibly.

public hermit · Jan 22, 2023

Der Alte said:
Maybe I missed this, but did you ever specifically address any scripture I quoted?
If UR was true we should see at least one vs., 2 or more would be better

Yes, I did and, yes, you've been shown many verses, over and over. Don't act like every day is our first day discussing this.

Der Alte, how about addressing the OP topic? Explain how Eternal Damnation is success for God who desires that none should perish. I say it's not success but failure since evil persists eternally. Let's hear your explanation.

Saint Steven · Jan 22, 2023

Aaron112 said:
He Says They Have no excuse, those who refused to believe, who are condemned already. They have no sacrifice for their transgressions, no atonement for their lives. None. At all. Ever.

That reads like a pseudo-biblical claim. Who is "He"?
Can you really defend this claim? Seems more like doctrinal apologetics than biblical truth to me.

Aaron112 said:
Yahweh's Justice and Righteousness and Judgment is PERFECT. and Complete.

Seems incomplete without MERCY and compassion. Can you work that in somewhere? Thanks.

Your word choice of "PERFECT" reminded me of this.
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Matthew 5:48 NIV

But more importantly, what it refers to. "love your enemies".
We are required to love our enemies. Which is godly behavior. See vs 48 above.
Or the whole passage below. (for the love your enemies part)

Question: Since God requires us to love our enemies, what should we expect him to do with his enemies?

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Saint Steven · Jan 22, 2023

Aaron112 said:
Is Good for those who are called and chosen in God's Will, as His Word Says, those who truly love God , not others who reject Him.

I see a contradiction in your reply.

You identify a predestined group as "called and chosen in God's Will", which is fine.
But then, rather than acknowledging that those outside that group are ALSO predestined "in God's Will",
you reverse the blame onto them, saying "others who reject Him."

Can anyone really reject God who isn't "called and chosen in God's Will"? And what about the others?
What is being rejected if predestination is a part of it? Seems the claim is a logical failure.

You can't predestine one group in this discussion without ALSO predestining the other group by default.
Do you follow me there?

Saint Steven · Jan 22, 2023

Hmm said:
The Good News of Christ.

Exactly.
The way the Good News is packaged, it mostly sounds like bad news.
I need to stop there. I could have some honest fun with this one. - LOL
(nothing stopping you though)

Hmm · Jan 22, 2023

Saint Steven said:
Exactly.
The way the Good News is packaged, it mostly sounds like bad news.
I need to stop there. I could have some honest fun with this one. - LOL
(nothing stopping you though)

Good News can't be Good News for anyone who cares about others if it's Bad News for "billions", or even for one. And the second commandment is to care about others...

So another illogicality there, to go along with the one you pointed out.

Saint Steven · Jan 22, 2023

Hmm said:
So another illogicality there, to go along with the one you pointed out.

There's our new word for the day: illogicality.
Do you have a (funny) definition?

What do you get when you cross a lack of logic with a geographical area?

Hmm · Jan 22, 2023

Saint Steven said:
There's our new word for the day: illogicality.
Do you have a (funny) definition?

What do you get when you cross a lack of logic with a geographical area?

"Great Britain" when Britain is so small it could sit in the corner of Texas and not be noticed for days? (Being British, I presume I'm allowed to say that...)

Aaron112 · Jan 22, 2023

Saint Steven said:
You identify a predestined group as "called and chosen in God's Will", which is fine.
But then, rather than acknowledging that those outside that group are ALSO predestined "in God's Will",
you reverse the blame onto them, saying "others who reject Him."

oops... go this for.... need a re-write.

Try better with truth.

Aaron112 · Jan 22, 2023

Saint Steven said:
That reads like a pseudo-biblical claim. Who is "He"?
Can you really defend this claim? Seems more like doctrinal apologetics than biblical truth to me.

Everyone who did read the Bible and remembers it, doesn't ask.

Saint Steven · Jan 22, 2023

Hmm said:
"Great Britain" when Britain is so small it could sit in the corner of Texas and not be noticed for days? (Being British, I presume I'm allowed to say that...)

And Texas is so BIG, that it really makes a difference which corner you choose.

Choose the panhandle if you want to be up to your rear in mud and still have sand blowing in your eyes.
Choose El Paso if you want to go to Mexico but lost your passport.
Choose Corpus Christi if you wanted to go to Mexico but still be on the Gulf.
Or if your Latin is good, and you want to remain in the Body of Christ. (poor attempt at humor)
Choose Dallas if you like the BIG city, or prefer the red soil and pines that grow in east Texas. (land of my birth - Chad too)
Choose Houston if you want to be able to make a day trip to Mari Gras in New Orleans.

Many other options to consider. Worth the trip. (easy for me to say)
Or should I say Fort Worth the trip? (boo, terrible humor)

Saint Steven · Jan 22, 2023

Saint Steven said:
That reads like a pseudo-biblical claim. Who is "He"?
Can you really defend this claim? Seems more like doctrinal apologetics than biblical truth to me.

Aaron112 said:
Everyone who did read the Bible and remembers it, doesn't ask.

Is that a fact?
Would you include yourself? You dodged my questions.
I asked because I did remember.

Aaron112 said:
He Says They Have no excuse, those who refused to believe, who are condemned already. They have no sacrifice for their transgressions, no atonement for their lives. None. At all. Ever.

Who is "He"?
Can you really defend this claim?

Der Alte · Jan 22, 2023

Hmm said:
Good News can't be Good News for anyone who cares about others if it's Bad News for "billions", or even for one. And the second commandment is to care about others...
So another illogicality there, to go along with the one you pointed out.

Then I guess the very words of Jesus, Himself are not "good news!"

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Neither the Father, Himself, nor Jesus, Himself, ever said that all mankind will be saved, or enter the kingdom of heaven.
As a matter of fact, Jesus said, “Not every one …shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;” Then Jesus said, “Many” [NOT a few], “will say to me in that day,” i.e. Judgement day, “Lord, Lord, have we not … in thy name done many wonderful works?”
Then Jesus will say to those “many” “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” When Jesus says “never” He means “never” not someday by and by.

Der Alte · Jan 22, 2023

Saint Steven said:
That reads like a pseudo-biblical claim. Who is "He"?
Can you really defend this claim? Seems more like doctrinal apologetics than biblical truth to me.
Seems incomplete without MERCY and compassion. Can you work that in somewhere? Thanks.
Your word choice of "PERFECT" reminded me of this.
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Matthew 5:48 NIV
But more importantly, what it refers to. "love your enemies".
We are required to love our enemies. Which is godly behavior. See vs 48 above.
Or the whole passage below. (for the love your enemies part)
Question: Since God requires us to love our enemies, what should we expect him to do with his enemies?
Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Anybody can make the Bible seem to say almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context as has been done in this post.
Speaking about God "having mercy."

Jeremiah 13:11-14
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Andrewn · Jan 22, 2023

Der Alte said:
If UR was true we should see at least one vs., 2 or more would be better, spoken by the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, stating unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, even after death.

John 12:32, ESV: And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Der Alte said:
EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]

eternal

1 of 2

adjective

eter·nal i-ˈtər-nᵊl

1
a
: having infinite duration : EVERLASTING
eternal damnation
b
: of or relating to eternity
c
: characterized by abiding fellowship with God
good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?—Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)
2
a
: continued without intermission : PERPETUAL
an eternal flame
b
: seemingly endless
eternal delays
3
archaic : INFERNAL
some eternal villain … devised this slander—William Shakespeare
4
: valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS
eternal verities

Der Alte · Jan 22, 2023

Andrewn said:
John 12:32, ESV: And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

You quoted Matthew 25:46. Does you Bible have Matthew 7:21-23? You must not believe what these two passages say.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Neither the Father, Himself, nor Jesus, Himself, ever said that all mankind will be saved, or enter the kingdom of heaven.
As a matter of fact, Jesus said, “Not every one …shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;” Then Jesus said, “Many” [NOT a few, “will say to me in that day,” i.e. Judgement day, “Lord, Lord, have we not … in thy name done many wonderful works?”
Then Jesus will say to those “many” “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” When Jesus says “never” He means “never” not someday by and by.

Andrewn · Jan 22, 2023

Der Alte said:
Neither the Father, Himself, nor Jesus, Himself, ever said that all mankind will be saved, or enter the kingdom of heaven.
As a matter of fact, Jesus said, “Not every one …shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;” Then Jesus said, “Many” [NOT a few, “will say to me in that day,” i.e. Judgement day, “Lord, Lord, have we not … in thy name done many wonderful works?”
Then Jesus will say to those “many” “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” When Jesus says “never” He means “never” not someday by and by.

You asked for a verse spoken by the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, stating unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, even after death. When you explain the verse I quoted, I will explain Mat 7:21-23. I promise

.

Der Alte · Jan 22, 2023

Andrewn said:
You asked for a verse spoken by the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, stating unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, even after death. When you explain the verse I quoted, I will explain Mat 7:21-23. I promise.

Sorry amigo. I'm not playing silly games. If you could "explain" Matt 21:23 you would have. Where is the one vs. spoken by the father stating that all mankind will be saved?
John 12:32 Jesus draws, invites, encourages all mankind to come to Him. Jesus NEVER said that He would forcibly drag all mankind, righteous and unrighteous, alike to Himself.

What is a successful (good) creation for God?

social troglodyte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

social troglodyte

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

You can call me Steve

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

eternal​

adjective​

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Similar threads

eternal

adjective