I am starting to hate free will

VCR-2000

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I'm having a hard time right now. I don't want this existence. I wish I could have died when I was a very small child or didn't exist at all. I don't want to go to either Heaven or Hell. This existence is so stupid, I hate being born and growing up experiencing things only to be told that I am as horrible of a person as Hitler in God's eyes (see other thread on this forum) and yet I'm supposed to embrace that humans have free will. And God created this planet and universe, yet human nature ends up veering toward evil instead of good or at least neither. I wish God could have just straight forward created us in Heaven if he wants us to choose to be with him so bad. I would never tell a child that I don't want to do things like touch a hot stove that he is free to do so.

It is so frustrating to me right now. I feel like I just want to perish into non-existence when I am finished living.
 
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Sabertooth

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I'm having a hard time right now. I don't want this existence. I wish I could have died when I was a very small child or didn't exist at all. I don't want to go to either Heaven or Hell. This existence is so stupid, I hate being born and growing up experiencing things only to be told that I am as horrible of a person as Hitler in God's eyes (see other thread on this forum) and yet I'm supposed to embrace that humans have free will. And God created this planet and universe, yet human nature ends up veering toward evil instead of good or at least neither. I wish God could have just straight forward created us in Heaven if he wants us to choose to be with him so bad. I would never tell a child that I don't want to do things like touch a hot stove that he is free to do so.

It is so frustrating to me right now. I feel like I just want to perish into non-existence when I am finished living.
Yet, here you/we are. What are you going to do about the Reality you find yourself in, since your preferred reality is not an option...?
 
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subtlecollision

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I'm sorry you're having a hard time right now. :(

If I'm understanding you correctly, I think maybe what's frustrating you is that you don't have free will? You are frustrated that you didn't choose to be born. You didn't choose to come into existence. God decided to create you and you didn't have any say in it.

One thing that seems to be really great about you is that you are a deep thinker. Most people don't think about what you're thinking about. It's awesome that God created you that way. Deep thinkers are often looking to be a part of something bigger than themselves. They think outside the box. They're concerned with meaning and ideas. I think that's one thing that's so appealing to me about Christianity. Christianity gives me purpose. It gives meaning to a life that can often seem mundane.

To know that someone else thought me into existence, created every aspect of my personality and my being, and chose to give me life-- now that's thrilling!

What if your existence isn't stupid because God has a purpose for you? What if He created you, specifically as you are, a person with a unique way of thinking, with all your idiosyncrasies, to do certain works that He has planned for you in this lifetime?

What if you tried to let go of your frustrations about free will and just accepted that you don't have free will? The fact of the matter is that you didn't give yourself life. God did. If you don't come to accept this fact, you will continue to suffer over this. So, at some point, you will have to accept it.

And now let's say you did accept this fact-- let's say you did accept that God chose to give you life-- maybe ponder how this could be seen as an honor- how precious it is to be created by someone else-- that someone else cared enough to form you.

And you could continue the mental exercise by wondering what purpose you might have being here since you have accepted that someone else decided to put you here. Someone else made the decision that you’re here. So, surely, that someone else did it for a reason.

What if your existence isn’t stupid because your identity was decided by someone else?

What if God wants you to be defined by love?

I feel like I’m a person who has struggled a lot with being sure of myself. I’ve always kind of felt like I don’t know who I am. I tend to find my identity in my humor and creativity or in my own goodness, but it’s been very freeing to me to realize that my truest identity is something that was given to me, not something I did. I know in an earlier message you mentioned “freedom from.” I think one thing Christianity gives us freedom from is the stress of trying to “make something of ourselves.” I don’t have to feel the burden of earning love or earning a name for myself. I don’t have to feel the burden of all my past mistakes. I don’t have to feel the burden of deciding whether or not I should’ve been born. I don’t have to feel the burden of living for myself. Or the burden of chasing worldly goals such as wealth or good looks or status. I have freedom from these things because God already decided who I am. His son Jesus laid down his life for me so that I could be free of all these things and born again as a new creation.


For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:10

For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb. – Psalm 139:13

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. – 2 Corinthians 5:17

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2

He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time - 2 Timothy 1:9

For the Lord takes pleasure in his people;
he adorns the humble with salvation. – Psalm 149:4
 
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Kermos

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I'm having a hard time right now. I don't want this existence. I wish I could have died when I was a very small child or didn't exist at all. I don't want to go to either Heaven or Hell. This existence is so stupid, I hate being born and growing up experiencing things only to be told that I am as horrible of a person as Hitler in God's eyes (see other thread on this forum) and yet I'm supposed to embrace that humans have free will. And God created this planet and universe, yet human nature ends up veering toward evil instead of good or at least neither. I wish God could have just straight forward created us in Heaven if he wants us to choose to be with him so bad. I would never tell a child that I don't want to do things like touch a hot stove that he is free to do so.

It is so frustrating to me right now. I feel like I just want to perish into non-existence when I am finished living.

The blessing of being bound to God's will is immensely liberating and humbling. We Christians believe "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

The Word of God says "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:3).

And more "Blessed are the humble, for they shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5).

I encourage you to pray on Matthew chapters 5-7. Spend time with the Master.
 
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VCR-2000

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I'm sorry you're having a hard time right now. :(

If I'm understanding you correctly, I think maybe what's frustrating you is that you don't have free will? You are frustrated that you didn't choose to be born. You didn't choose to come into existence. God decided to create you and you didn't have any say in it.

One thing that seems to be really great about you is that you are a deep thinker. Most people don't think about what you're thinking about. It's awesome that God created you that way. Deep thinkers are often looking to be a part of something bigger than themselves. They think outside the box. They're concerned with meaning and ideas. I think that's one thing that's so appealing to me about Christianity. Christianity gives me purpose. It gives meaning to a life that can often seem mundane.

To know that someone else thought me into existence, created every aspect of my personality and my being, and chose to give me life-- now that's thrilling!

What if your existence isn't stupid because God has a purpose for you? What if He created you, specifically as you are, a person with a unique way of thinking, with all your idiosyncrasies, to do certain works that He has planned for you in this lifetime?

What if you tried to let go of your frustrations about free will and just accepted that you don't have free will? The fact of the matter is that you didn't give yourself life. God did. If you don't come to accept this fact, you will continue to suffer over this. So, at some point, you will have to accept it.

And now let's say you did accept this fact-- let's say you did accept that God chose to give you life-- maybe ponder how this could be seen as an honor- how precious it is to be created by someone else-- that someone else cared enough to form you.

And you could continue the mental exercise by wondering what purpose you might have being here since you have accepted that someone else decided to put you here. Someone else made the decision that you’re here. So, surely, that someone else did it for a reason.

What if your existence isn’t stupid because your identity was decided by someone else?

What if God wants you to be defined by love?

I feel like I’m a person who has struggled a lot with being sure of myself. I’ve always kind of felt like I don’t know who I am. I tend to find my identity in my humor and creativity or in my own goodness, but it’s been very freeing to me to realize that my truest identity is something that was given to me, not something I did. I know in an earlier message you mentioned “freedom from.” I think one thing Christianity gives us freedom from is the stress of trying to “make something of ourselves.” I don’t have to feel the burden of earning love or earning a name for myself. I don’t have to feel the burden of all my past mistakes. I don’t have to feel the burden of deciding whether or not I should’ve been born. I don’t have to feel the burden of living for myself. Or the burden of chasing worldly goals such as wealth or good looks or status. I have freedom from these things because God already decided who I am. His son Jesus laid down his life for me so that I could be free of all these things and born again as a new creation.


For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:10

For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb. – Psalm 139:13

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. – 2 Corinthians 5:17

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2

He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time - 2 Timothy 1:9

For the Lord takes pleasure in his people;
he adorns the humble with salvation. – Psalm 149:4
I modestly accept that compliment about being a deep thinker.
Yeah, I am kind of frustrated about not choosing to be born or my own circumstances.
Maybe I am not so mad at the idea of existing itself as the circumstances of it that I'm dealing with currently.

I accept it's possible that I might have a special purpose from God but I haven't found or confirmed what it is yet. Still exploring.
I can possibly accept that I don't have free will, but again growing up I had free will embedded in my head somewhere from early on, and I grew up in the country considered (rightly or not) the 'most free in the world' so I have a little bit of libertarian in me that makes it hard to reconcile.
 
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subtlecollision

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I modestly accept that compliment about being a deep thinker.
Yeah, I am kind of frustrated about not choosing to be born or my own circumstances.
Maybe I am not so mad at the idea of existing itself as the circumstances of it that I'm dealing with currently.

I accept it's possible that I might have a special purpose from God but I haven't found or confirmed what it is yet. Still exploring.
I can possibly accept that I don't have free will, but again growing up I had free will embedded in my head somewhere from early on, and I grew up in the country considered (rightly or not) the 'most free in the world' so I have a little bit of libertarian in me that makes it hard to reconcile.

Ah, that makes sense. I'm sorry you're struggling with the situation you find yourself in, and I pray that your circumstances would improve quickly. Hopefully something amazing is right around the corner!

Your purpose could be something as simple as being kind to the people you find in your life or doing some type of volunteer work. You have the power to make a huge difference in people's lives even through "small acts of kindness."

Honestly, I believed in free will for a long time. About 3 years ago, I realized I didn't believe in it anymore. The Bible actually has nothing to say about free will, but it has a lot to say about God being in control. I'm learning that it's nice not to be in control.
 
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Sabertooth

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Honestly, I believed in free will for a long time. About 3 years ago, I realized I didn't believe in it anymore. The Bible actually has nothing to say about free will, but it has a lot to say about God being in control. I'm learning that it's nice not to be in control.
Seeking to align your will with His is the optimal use of your free will.
 
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Kermos

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I am starting to get tired and fatigued of the concept of free will and it is one of the obstacles I get in the way of having a good relationship with God. I might want to act now as if the law of free will doesn't exist. I am frustrated and existentially dreaded that we had to be created with the freedom of choice to obey or disobey God and yet we are liable for either one of two eternal destinations of judgement upon our end, and that God didn't create our world as the only place but just a temporary "testing grounds".

The natural free choice we do have also seem to operate on a binary pattern, good vs. evil, etc. What is funny is that even though God is far beyond human comprehension, man was able to create more than just two choices and shades of things. This is what makes our life exciting. In the end, we don't have any real freedom from anything, whether it is Heaven or Hell, you can't be free from God or Satan. I don't think God has a concept similar to "freedom from" like man was able to design independently. This makes sense, but at the same time it is a frustrating reality to me. We didn't even have the choice whether or not to exist and be born into this world wanting to rebel against God to begin with. So it just has to be whether we like it or not.

I'm having a hard time right now. I don't want this existence. I wish I could have died when I was a very small child or didn't exist at all. I don't want to go to either Heaven or Hell. This existence is so stupid, I hate being born and growing up experiencing things only to be told that I am as horrible of a person as Hitler in God's eyes (see other thread on this forum) and yet I'm supposed to embrace that humans have free will. And God created this planet and universe, yet human nature ends up veering toward evil instead of good or at least neither. I wish God could have just straight forward created us in Heaven if he wants us to choose to be with him so bad. I would never tell a child that I don't want to do things like touch a hot stove that he is free to do so.

It is so frustrating to me right now. I feel like I just want to perish into non-existence when I am finished living.

I'd like to share with you something that King Solomon, the king whom God gave great wisdom (1 Kings 3:1-15), wrote:


Then I became great and increased more than all who preceded me in Jerusalem. My wisdom also stood by me. All that my eyes desired I did not refuse them. I did not withhold my heart from any pleasure, for my heart was pleased because of all my labor and this was my reward for all my labor. Thus I considered all my activities which my hands had done and the labor which I had exerted, and behold all was vanity and striving after wind and there was no profit under the sun.
(Ecclesiastes 2:9-11)

Does that sound familiar? Here's more that King Solomon wrote that your writing reflects:


So I turned to consider wisdom, madness and folly; for what will the man do who will come after the king except what has already been done? And I saw that wisdom excels folly as light excels darkness. The wise man’s eyes are in his head, but the fool walks in darkness. And yet I know that one fate befalls them both. Then I said to myself, “As is the fate of the fool, it will also befall me. Why then have I been extremely wise?” So I said to myself, “This too is vanity.” For there is no lasting remembrance of the wise man as with the fool, inasmuch as in the coming days all will be forgotten. And how the wise man and the fool alike die! So I hated life, for the work which had been done under the sun was grievous to me; because everything is futility and striving after wind.
(Ecclesiastes 2:12-17)

And to the second sentence of your second post quoted above, see King Solomon's writing:


Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun.
(Ecclesiastes 4:1-3)

I strongly encourage you to read the book of Ecclesiastes because there is oh so much more than what I've quoted here. It's even available online at this link:


But, afterward, please return to the Book of Matthew as I referred you prior, even the very start, and read through to Mark and into Luke then complete John.

King Solomon concluded Ecclesiastes with:


The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
(Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)
 
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Gregory Thompson

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the bible talks about liberty, in the letter James writes to the Jewish believers.

James says since you have been set free, act like it.

i.e. you have been forgiven, so forgive others.

The concept of "doing whatever you want" is not really there.

p.s. I can't remember if willy was actually freed or ended up being eaten in a can of tuna ..
 
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I am realizing that the "why" we are here might not have everything to do with sin or virtue.
What I would take with me when I go is my drawing skills.
I can't draw. Years ago I found a book on perspective and decided to copy every picture in the book. I learned geometry, perspective, cad and computer skills. I learned about paper, chemistry of paint and textures of surfaces. I studied, anatomy, animals, houses, faces, all of God's creation. The colors of a sunset, the curve of a smile, the light in the eye all had new meaning when I wondered how to replicate the picture the glory of God.
I am not sinning nor am I virtuous when I am drawing.
I hope that in heaven there is the ability and tools to create.
I still can't draw but I have all the work of learning and exploring. For me, that is "why" I am here and what defines the "what" of my existence.
I believe in limited free will but free will, I would will myself into Michealangelo.
It is Christmas, I wish everyone here a very Merry Christmas.
 
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I am starting to get tired and fatigued of the concept of free will and it is one of the obstacles I get in the way of having a good relationship with God. I might want to act now as if the law of free will doesn't exist. I am frustrated and existentially dreaded that we had to be created with the freedom of choice to obey or disobey God and yet we are liable for either one of two eternal destinations of judgement upon our end, and that God didn't create our world as the only place but just a temporary "testing grounds".

The natural free choice we do have also seem to operate on a binary pattern, good vs. evil, etc. What is funny is that even though God is far beyond human comprehension, man was able to create more than just two choices and shades of things. This is what makes our life exciting. In the end, we don't have any real freedom from anything, whether it is Heaven or Hell, you can't be free from God or Satan. I don't think God has a concept similar to "freedom from" like man was able to design independently. This makes sense, but at the same time it is a frustrating reality to me. We didn't even have the choice whether or not to exist and be born into this world wanting to rebel against God to begin with. So it just has to be whether we like it or not.
To my knowledge, God has never compelled any of us to choose a particular thing, including whether or not to exist. And by "exist," I mean as beings capable of expressing our own will. Granted, I don't know that God has told us about that moment in eternity where we were offered the option to become agents of intelligent choice, as opposed to merely intelligences with the potential to choose. But drawing from both what He has told us, and from his history with us, it seems incongruent with his pattern that we would have been forced out of a place of neutrality onto a path that would lead to an eternal destination that was not neutral. So I accept that I stepped onto the path because I chose to when actually given the option to choose, not because God placed me on the path without my choosing. And to be perfectly honest, I'm betting that I was very happy to be given the choice, as eternity with only the potential to express will—and, most critically, knowledge of that potential—would seem like an "itchy" existence, indeed. I'll bet we all were very ready to choose to become will-expressive!

It's all gravy from there, I'd say.

But I do agree that many of man's popular belief systems ascribe to God the placement of man into a circumstance where choices and destinations are, ultimately, purely binary. I'd find living in such a system exhausting, too (I don't like "boxy" gods).

I don't believe we can choose our way back to neutrality. At the same time, if in the end it is "freedom from" both God and Satan that we desire, I don't doubt but that God will give us as close to that outcome as is within His power to grant. Though as we grow in the truth, don't we desire neutrality less? After all, to be neutral is to be devoid of purpose. That would be the ultimate, eternal boredom.
 
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VCR-2000

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Ah, that makes sense. I'm sorry you're struggling with the situation you find yourself in, and I pray that your circumstances would improve quickly. Hopefully something amazing is right around the corner!

Your purpose could be something as simple as being kind to the people you find in your life or doing some type of volunteer work. You have the power to make a huge difference in people's lives even through "small acts of kindness."

Honestly, I believed in free will for a long time. About 3 years ago, I realized I didn't believe in it anymore. The Bible actually has nothing to say about free will, but it has a lot to say about God being in control. I'm learning that it's nice not to be in control.
Guess I'm not the only one disillusioned by that teaching then.
 
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VCR-2000

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Seeking to align your will with His is the optimal use of your free will.
If you need to align your own will with someone else's while facing possible punishment for not abiding with that, I have a hard time considering that truly free.
 
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Join the dark side and become a Compatibilist. You get to have Free Will and God's Sovereignty simultaneously.

One argument for Compatibilism is the Frankfurt experiment. Look it up if you are tired of the same Free Will arguments.
 
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If you need to align your own will with someone else's while facing possible punishment for not abiding with that, I have a hard time considering that truly free.
That is like telling a fire fighter, "If I need to leave this burning building in order to not get burnt, then you are not much of a fire fighter...!" :doh:
 
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Guess I'm not the only one disillusioned by that teaching then.
A murderer has free will--he can choose to murder or not to. But once he exercises that choice to murder he accepts the consequences, which should be the death penalty. No free will is violated.

Adam and Eve were able to eat or not eat of the tree of knowledge, but once they ate, they received the death penalty.

Anyone can disobey God. That's free will. God can then punish them--That's His sovereignty. Or they can accept Jesus' death on the cross as payment for sins--that's His mercy.

Why is this a problem?
 
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I'm still having the existential angst. God seems just content with standing by and allowing people to do evil to other people, and then judge everyone at once. Imagine if a house builder built your house and passively watched hoodlums vandalize and burn it to the ground completely, then punished them AFTER the irreparable damage was done. To me, that seems to describe the kind of father God is right now.
 
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I am starting to get tired and fatigued of the concept of free will and it is one of the obstacles I get in the way of having a good relationship with God. I might want to act now as if the law of free will doesn't exist. I am frustrated and existentially dreaded that we had to be created with the freedom of choice to obey or disobey God and yet we are liable for either one of two eternal destinations of judgement upon our end, and that God didn't create our world as the only place but just a temporary "testing grounds".

The natural free choice we do have also seem to operate on a binary pattern, good vs. evil, etc. What is funny is that even though God is far beyond human comprehension, man was able to create more than just two choices and shades of things. This is what makes our life exciting. In the end, we don't have any real freedom from anything, whether it is Heaven or Hell, you can't be free from God or Satan. I don't think God has a concept similar to "freedom from" like man was able to design independently. This makes sense, but at the same time it is a frustrating reality to me. We didn't even have the choice whether or not to exist and be born into this world wanting to rebel against God to begin with. So it just has to be whether we like it or not.

There are a number of indicators of how Eve's desire influenced her perception. When desire enters to picture, then we can no longer be certain if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it, so this is where we need to freely choose to submit our will to God by learning not on our own understanding, but in all of our ways acknowledge Him, and He will make our paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).
 
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Aug 17, 2020
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I think you are depressed @VCR-2000 . Don’t you think the existentialist philosophers were depressed. You don’t want to do anything, to follow, you can’t understand and you have unresolved issues. You want to just let go and, but don’t follow satan, with your indecision. You don’t have the energy or viewpoint for Christ right now. Take it slow. Don’t give up on living or hope. You Want What Jesus Offers. Wait On the Lord.
 
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