If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?

Saint Steven · Dec 19, 2022

What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

Like Adam and Eve, we have no idea what death is like, or the afterlife.
If our decision to follow Christ is based on acquiring a desirable afterlife for ourselves,
as opposed to being incinerated for all eternity... then...

It's an uninformed free-will decision.

Those who decide to not follow Christ are equally uninformed. (or more so)
In that case, what are appropriate consequences? (if any)

If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?
Jesus said it best...

Luke 23:34 NIV
...“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”...

disciple Clint · Dec 20, 2022

Saint Steven said:
What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

Like Adam and Eve, we have no idea what death is like, or the afterlife.
If our decision to follow Christ is based on acquiring a desirable afterlife for ourselves,
as opposed to being incinerated for all eternity... then...

It's an uninformed free-will decision.

Those who decide to not follow Christ are equally uninformed. (or more so)
In that case, what are appropriate consequences? (if any)

If free-will is an uniformed choice, what about consequences?
Jesus said it best...

Luke 23:34 NIV
...“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”...

Invincible Ignorance - The Catholic Thing

Howard Kainz worries that if we believe that all truth is relative – just “your truth” or “my truth” – the odds are not very good, short of a crisis, for emerging from ignorance.

www.thecatholicthing.org

Saint Steven · Dec 20, 2022

disciple Clint said:
Invincible Ignorance - The Catholic Thing

Howard Kainz worries that if we believe that all truth is relative – just “your truth” or “my truth” – the odds are not very good, short of a crisis, for emerging from ignorance.

www.thecatholicthing.org

A crisis, for emerging from ignorance?
That's what I'm trying to address here. That saw cuts both ways, of course.
And why would you conclude that I am promoting Relativism?

What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

disciple Clint · Dec 20, 2022

Saint Steven said:
A crisis, for emerging from ignorance?
That's what I'm trying to address here. That saw cuts both ways, of course.
And why would you conclude that I am promoting Relativism?

What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

Where did I say you are promoting Relativism?

Aussie Pete · Dec 20, 2022

Saint Steven said:
What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

Like Adam and Eve, we have no idea what death is like, or the afterlife.
If our decision to follow Christ is based on acquiring a desirable afterlife for ourselves,
as opposed to being incinerated for all eternity... then...

It's an uninformed free-will decision.

Those who decide to not follow Christ are equally uninformed. (or more so)
In that case, what are appropriate consequences? (if any)

If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?
Jesus said it best...

Luke 23:34 NIV
...“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”...

I do not believe that our choices are uninformed. Romans 1:18-32 seems to contradict that idea.

eleos1954 · Dec 20, 2022

Saint Steven said:
What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

Like Adam and Eve, we have no idea what death is like, or the afterlife.
If our decision to follow Christ is based on acquiring a desirable afterlife for ourselves,
as opposed to being incinerated for all eternity... then...

It's an uninformed free-will decision.

Those who decide to not follow Christ are equally uninformed. (or more so)
In that case, what are appropriate consequences? (if any)

If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?
Jesus said it best...

Luke 23:34 NIV
...“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”...

Romans 2

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Everyone is informed .... else God can not judge rightly.

David's Harp · Dec 20, 2022

Saint Steven said:
What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

Say you didn't know about electricity and you touched a bare live wire. What would be an appropriate consequence?

Or how about all those people who used to smoke cigarettes before they knew the dangers. Are the consequences appropriate?

How about unrepented sin and continual denial of God despite His Revelation. What are the appropriate consequences?

Saint Steven · Dec 20, 2022

Aussie Pete said:
I do not believe that our choices are uninformed. Romans 1:18-32 seems to contradict that idea.

Why? Because that scripture says "people are without excuse"? For what? (from the context please)

Saint Steven · Dec 20, 2022

eleos1954 said:
Everyone is informed .... else God can not judge rightly.

Informed of what? That God created the world? What will that get you?

David's Harp said:
Say you didn't know about electricity and you touched a bare live wire. What would be an appropriate consequence?

Or how about all those people who used to smoke cigarettes before they knew the dangers. Are the consequences appropriate?

How about unrepented sin and continual denial of God despite His Revelation. What are the appropriate consequences?

One of these things is not like the others, or is it?
- A bare live electrical wire
- Cancer from tobacco use.
- Rejecting God

Who else would share the same consequences as the one who rejected God?
Those who had never heard, or had an opportunity to respond?
Appropriate consequences?

Lukaris · Dec 20, 2022

I believe it was understood throughout, perhaps scattered, the Bible that going back to Noah that there is basic divine law that we are accountable for ( Genesis 9:1-17). I believe this applies to what is said in Ezekiel 18:4-9 and some ( not all) of the 10 commandments. These also seem to apply to what the Lord spoke with the rich young man about in Matthew 19:16-26 and what St. Paul says in Romans 13:8-10. These would apply to what St. Paul says of the law written in our hearts in Romans 2:1-29.

I think the Lord will separate true from false Christians ( I mean this regardless whether one is Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant) like in Matthew 7:21-23. Whereas I believe while the final judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 is for all, I think that is where we find out that there will be saved ( sheep) & unsaved ( goats) among the non Christians.

Judaism recognizes the gentile accountability to the laws of Noah and I believe St. Paul reiterated it also.

Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Aussie Pete · Dec 20, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Why? Because that scripture says "people are without excuse"? For what? (from the context please)

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity for the dishonoring of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise!f Amen.

26For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27Likewise, the men abandoned natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant, and boastful. They invent new forms of evil; they disobey their parents. 31They are senseless, faithless, heartless, merciless.

32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things are worthy of death, they not only continue to do these things, but also approve of those who practice them.

Saint Steven · Dec 21, 2022

Lukaris said:
I believe it was understood throughout, perhaps scattered, the Bible that going back to Noah that there is basic divine law that we are accountable for ( Genesis 9:1-17). I believe this applies to what is said in Ezekiel 18:4-9 and some ( not all) of the 10 commandments. These also seem to apply to what the Lord spoke with the rich young man about in Matthew 19:16-26 and what St. Paul says in Romans 13:8-10. These would apply to what St. Paul says of the law written in our hearts in Romans 2:1-29.

I think the Lord will separate true from false Christians ( I mean this regardless whether one is Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant) like in Matthew 7:21-23. Whereas I believe while the final judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 is for all, I think that is where we find out that there will be saved ( sheep) & unsaved ( goats) among the non Christians.

Judaism recognizes the gentile accountability to the laws of Noah and I believe St. Paul reiterated it also.

Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Thanks for joining the discussion. And attempting to answer the topic question.

The law of Noah adds another facet to the subject of law.

If "the law of Moses" is nullified, why would the law of Noah still be intact?
We still have our God-given human conscience however. And the law of Christ.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

Lukaris · Dec 21, 2022

W

Saint Steven said:
Thanks for joining the discussion. And attempting to answer the topic question.

The law of Noah adds another facet to the subject of law.

If "the law of Moses" is nullified, why would the law of Noah still be intact?
We still have our God-given human conscience however. And the law of Christ.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

We still keep the Lord’s commandments as in John 14:15-18 but we must walk in the Spirit as the Lord says in John 14:15-18 and St. Paul affirms in Galatians 5:14-26.

bling · Dec 21, 2022

Saint Steven said:
What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

Like Adam and Eve, we have no idea what death is like, or the afterlife.
If our decision to follow Christ is based on acquiring a desirable afterlife for ourselves,
as opposed to being incinerated for all eternity... then...

It's an uninformed free-will decision.

Those who decide to not follow Christ are equally uninformed. (or more so)
In that case, what are appropriate consequences? (if any)

If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?
Jesus said it best...

Luke 23:34 NIV
...“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”...

When God said: "You will die", how and where did Adam and Eve get their definition for "death" or any other word God used? Adam and Eve knew how to walk, eat, talk and lots of other stuff taught by a parent, so who parented Adam and Eve?
God would have had to program (taught) Adam and Eve to maturity, so they got their definition for death from God, so how good of a definition was that?
You seem to be placing the cause for all human decisions on information, so given the same information all humans would make the same decision, but that is not true. Very little "information" is needed to decide to go to the banquet or refuse to go to the banquet. The people who stayed away were not lacking information, but their free will hearts were not right.

eleos1954 · Dec 21, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Informed of what? That God created the world? What will that get you?

One of these things is not like the others, or is it?
- A bare live electrical wire
- Cancer from tobacco use.
- Rejecting God

Who else would share the same consequences as the one who rejected God?
Those who had never heard, or had an opportunity to respond?
Appropriate consequences?

His law is written on the hearts of man.

Romans 2:15

Amplified Bible
They show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts; and their conscience [their sense of right and wrong, their moral choices] bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or perhaps defending them

David's Harp · Dec 21, 2022

Saint Steven said:
One of these things is not like the others, or is it?
- A bare live electrical wire
- Cancer from tobacco use.
- Rejecting God

I was trying to demonstrate something between the law of nature and the law of God. "The wages of sin is death".
(Needs more work. :sorry:

)

Saint Steven said:
Who else would share the same consequences as the one who rejected God?
Those who had never heard, or had an opportunity to respond?

It would probably be best to say I don't know, at this moment. It's really up to God.

Saint Steven said:
Appropriate consequences?

Is Universal Reconciliation an appropriate consequence for unrepented sin and continual denial of God despite His Revelation?

atpollard · Dec 21, 2022

Saint Steven said:
What consequences are appropriate if our free-will choices are uninformed?

Like Adam and Eve, we have no idea what death is like, or the afterlife.
If our decision to follow Christ is based on acquiring a desirable afterlife for ourselves,
as opposed to being incinerated for all eternity... then...

Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, banned from the Tree of Life, condemned to die, caused all creation to be cursed, and passed on "sin and death" to all human beings that followed. So God answered the question about "what consequences are appropriate".

As to the other question, Hebrews states: "For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away [from it.] For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every violation and act of disobedience received a just punishment, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders, and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will." [Hebrews 2:1-4]

And Romans 1:18-21 claims that men are not uninformed in their choices: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes, that is,] His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened."

Saint Steven · Dec 21, 2022

bling said:
hen God said: "You will die", how and where did Adam and Eve get their definition for "death" or any other word God used?

Would you have eaten the fruit if you knew it meant certain death?

Saint Steven · Dec 21, 2022

bling said:
Very little "information" is needed to decide to go to the banquet or refuse to go to the banquet. The people who stayed away were not lacking information, but their free will hearts were not right.

Are you saying they were fully informed? In that case, would anyone in their right mind not go?

Saint Steven · Dec 21, 2022

David's Harp said:
Is Universal Reconciliation an appropriate consequence for unrepented sin and continual denial of God despite His Revelation?

I would say, yes. Because UR would have a corrective period for us all to work through those issues. Everyone will be salted with fire.

If free-will is an uninformed choice, what about consequences?

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