Who are the Zadokites Speaking of?

HARK! · Dec 17, 2022

1QS

And when these become members of the Community in Israel according to all these rules, they shall separate from the habitation of unjust men and shall go into the wilderness to prepare there the way of Him; as it is written, Prepare in the wilderness the way of ... , make straight in the desert a path for our God (Isa. xl, 3). This (path) is the study of the Law which He commanded by the hand of Moses, that they may do according to all that has been revealed from age to age, and as the Prophets have revealed by His Holy Spirit.

Excerpt: The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English, Geza Vermes, P. 141

Blessings
(1QSb=1Q28b)

These fragments from a collection of blessings were originally attached to the Scroll containing the Community Rule and the Messianic Rule. They have been skilfully pieced together by J. T. Milik (DJD, I, 118-29), who dates them to around 100 BCE.

The Blessing of the Prince of the Congregation

The Master shall bless the Prince of the Congregation ... and shall renew for him the Covenant of the Community that he may establish the kingdom of His people for ever, [that he may judge the poor with righteousness and] dispense justice with {equity to the oppressed} (Schøyen) of the land, and that he may walk perfectly before Him in all the ways [of truth], and that he may establish His holy Covenant at the time of the affliction of those who seek God. May the Lord raise you up to everlasting heights, and as a fortified tower upon a high wall! [May you smite the peoples] with the might of your hand and ravage the earth with your sceptre; may you bring death to the ungodly with the breath of your lips! [May He shed upon you the spirit of counsel] and everlasting might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of God; may righteousness be the girdle [of your loins] and may your reins be girdled [with faithfulness]! May He make your horns of iron and your hooves of bronze; may you toss like a young bull [and trample the peoples] like the mire of the streets! For God has established you as the sceptre. The rulers ... [and all the kings of the] nations shall serve you. He shall strengthen you with His holy Name and you shall be as a [lion; and you shall not lie down until you have devoured the] prey which naught shall deliver ...

Excerpts: The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English, Geza Vermes, P. 444, 446, 447

daq · Dec 18, 2022

HARK! said:
1QS

And when these become members of the Community in Israel according to all these rules, they shall separate from the habitation of unjust men and shall go into the wilderness to prepare there the way of Him; as it is written, Prepare in the wilderness the way of ... , make straight in the desert a path for our God (Isa. xl, 3). This (path) is the study of the Law which He commanded by the hand of Moses, that they may do according to all that has been revealed from age to age, and as the Prophets have revealed by His Holy Spirit.

Excerpt: The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English, Geza Vermes, P. 141

Who? In the third year the talmid is tested and either approved or disapproved. The first year he is a babe. The second year he is a manchild servant.

Sefer of the Magi
[11] It is written in our Law, Take the sum of all the community by their kindreds, by the houses of their fathers, with the number of their names:
[12] Every male by their heads, from twenty years of age and upwards, every one that is able to enter into the forces.
[13] Therefore our sages have said, Every man who freely volunteers to join the Council of the Community, he shall be examined on his intelligence and his deeds by the man who is the overseer at the head of the Many.
[14] And if he is suited to the discipline, he is a proselyte: he will bring him into the Covenant that he may be converted to the truth and turn away from all perversity.
[15] And he shall instruct him in all of the ordinances of the Community, and after, when he presents himself to the Many, they shall consider his case: and according to what fate decrees, following the decision of the Many, he shall either approach or depart.
[16] And when he approaches the Council, he shall not touch the pure food of the Many until he has been examined concerning his spirit and deeds: and until he has completed one full year, he is a babe, and he may not mingle his property with that of the Many.
[17] And when he has completed one full year in the midst of the Community, the Many shall consider his case concerning his intelligence and deeds with regard to the Torah:
[18] And if fate decrees that he approach the Company of the Community, following the decision of the Kohanim and the majority of the members of their Covenant, his property and his wages shall be given to the overseer of the revenues of the Many:
[19] But it shall be inscribed to his credit and shall not be spent to benefit the Many.
[20] He shall not touch the drink of the Many until he has completed a second full year in the midst of the members of the Community: he is a manchild servant.
[21] And when he has completed the second full year they shall examine him: and according to the decision of the Many, and if fate decrees that he approach the Community, he shall be enrolled and inscribed in his rank in the midst of his brethren.

HARK! said:
Blessings
(1QSb=1Q28b)

These fragments from a collection of blessings were originally attached to the Scroll containing the Community Rule and the Messianic Rule. They have been skilfully pieced together by J. T. Milik (DJD, I, 118-29), who dates them to around 100 BCE.

The Blessing of the Prince of the Congregation

The Master shall bless the Prince of the Congregation ... and shall renew for him the Covenant of the Community that he may establish the kingdom of His people for ever, [that he may judge the poor with righteousness and] dispense justice with {equity to the oppressed} (Schøyen) of the land, and that he may walk perfectly before Him in all the ways [of truth], and that he may establish His holy Covenant at the time of the affliction of those who seek God. May the Lord raise you up to everlasting heights, and as a fortified tower upon a high wall! [May you smite the peoples] with the might of your hand and ravage the earth with your sceptre; may you bring death to the ungodly with the breath of your lips! [May He shed upon you the spirit of counsel] and everlasting might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of God; may righteousness be the girdle [of your loins] and may your reins be girdled [with faithfulness]! May He make your horns of iron and your hooves of bronze; may you toss like a young bull [and trample the peoples] like the mire of the streets! For God has established you as the sceptre. The rulers ... [and all the kings of the] nations shall serve you. He shall strengthen you with His holy Name and you shall be as a [lion; and you shall not lie down until you have devoured the] prey which naught shall deliver ...

Excerpts: The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English, Geza Vermes, P. 444, 446, 447

Who? The Teacher of Righteousness.

HARK! · Dec 18, 2022

daq said:
Who? The Teacher of Righteousness.

Malki Tzedek?

There are two mentioned in (1QSb=1Q28b), the Master and the Prince. Who would the Master be? Who would the Prince be?

daq · Dec 18, 2022

HARK! said:
Malki Tzedek?

There are two mentioned in (1QSb=1Q28b), the Master and the Prince. Who would the Master be? Who would the Prince be?

What word is used there for Master? It should be Adon but that can get a little tricky considering its relationship to Adonai and the basically non-existent difference between Adoni, ("my Master"), and Adonai, (used in place of the Tetragrammaton). I am not sure exactly what they believed about the identity of Melki-Tzedek but I believe this title to be in reference to the Word of the Father.

Lulav · Dec 19, 2022

HARK! said:
1QS

And when these become members of the Community in Israel according to all these rules, they shall separate from the habitation of unjust men and shall go into the wilderness to prepare there the way of Him; as it is written, Prepare in the wilderness the way of ... , make straight in the desert a path for our God (Isa. xl, 3). This (path) is the study of the Law which He commanded by the hand of Moses, that they may do according to all that has been revealed from age to age, and as the Prophets have revealed by His Holy Spirit.

Excerpt: The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English, Geza Vermes, P. 141

That is why I believe that Yochanan ben Zachariah was raised up in the wilderness community, outside Jerusalem, today called Qumran.

HARK! · Dec 19, 2022

Lulav said:
That is why I believe that Yochanan ben Zachariah was raised up in the wilderness community, outside Jerusalem, today called Qumran.

The large mikvahs at Betharaba (renamed Qumran by the Muslims) would have been well suited to his work.

HARK! · Dec 19, 2022

daq said:
What word is used there for Master?

I used to have a file with a link to a very large library, somewhere in Europe, that had images of many of the scrolls and fragments. I seem to have lost that file; and I'm having difficulty finding that website again. I'm having difficulty finding a rendering of these documents in their original script.

daq · Dec 20, 2022

HARK! said:
I used to have a file with a link to a very large library, somewhere in Europe, that had images of many of the scrolls and fragments. I seem to have lost that file; and I'm having difficulty finding that website again. I'm having difficulty finding a rendering of these documents in their original script.

It's most likely going to be Adon because it is surely either Hebrew or Aramaic in that text, (at least I am pretty sure). The problem is that Adon is used in ways and situations where it can indeed mean, for example, the Word of the Father, and not just the Father Himself. A good example would be Zechariah 4:14 where Adon is used for "the Master of all the land (or earth)".

One might assume that this speaks of the Father but this statement is also loosely quoted or at least referenced in Revelation 11:4, and in that place some texts read Theos, (Elohim or God), and some texts read Kurios, (Master or Lord), while in the LXX we have tw Kuriw, (τω κυριω), which defies the typical rule for not using the definite article when and where rendering the Tetragrammaton as Kurios in the LXX.

Can the Master of all the land be the Word of the Father? Yes, indeed, especially if and when speaking of the Torah: and all the teachings of the Prophets flow from the instructions taught in the Torah, and they expound the Torah. I therefore cannot understand for sure what is meant by Master in the passage you have quoted. It may be a general term, (intentionally of course), so that it may include both the Father and His Word and also an either-or situation.

PS: A similar situation arises with the phrase "Prince of the Congregation". What is the word rendered as prince here? The three main probabilities are nasiy, sar, and nagiyd, and a few other less common words. If it is nasiy then it most likely speaks of the chief Kohen, which in this case would necessarily be a son of Ahron, and almost no doubt, (because of the place where this writing was discovered), a son of Tzadok. If these things be true then the Nasiy-Prince of the Congregation would be speaking of a man, the chief Kohen, as opposed to an angelic being or some type of spiritual being in regards to meaning.

HARK! · Dec 20, 2022

daq said:
It's most likely going to be Adon because it is surely either Hebrew or Aramaic in that text, (at least I am pretty sure). The problem is that Adon is used in ways and situations where it can indeed mean, for example, the Word of the Father, and not just the Father Himself. A good example would be Zechariah 4:14 where Adon is used for "the Master of all the land (or earth)".

One might assume that this speaks of the Father but this statement is also loosely quoted or at least referenced in Revelation 11:4, and in that place some texts read Theos, (Elohim or God), and some texts read Kurios, (Master or Lord), while in the LXX we have tw Kuriw, (τω κυριω), which defies the typical rule for not using the definite article when and where rendering the Tetragrammaton as Kurios in the LXX.

Can the Master of all the land be the Word of the Father? Yes, indeed, especially if and when speaking of the Torah: and all the teachings of the Prophets flow from the instructions taught in the Torah, and they expound the Torah. I therefore cannot understand for sure what is meant by Master in the passage you have quoted. It may be a general term, (intentionally of course), so that it may include both the Father and His Word and also an either-or situation.

PS: A similar situation arises with the phrase "Prince of the Congregation". What is the word rendered as prince here? The three main probabilities are nasiy, sar, and nagiyd, and a few other less common words. If it is nasiy then it most likely speaks of the chief Kohen, which in this case would necessarily be a son of Ahron, and almost no doubt, (because of the place where this writing was discovered), a son of Tzadok. If these things be true then the Nasiy-Prince of the Congregation would be speaking of a man, the chief Kohen, as opposed to an angelic being or some type of spiritual being in regards to meaning.

I found them.

Rule of Blessings

1Q28b-1000 - 1Q Sb

The Dead Sea Scrolls - 1Q Rule of Blessings

The Leon Levy Dead Sea Scrolls Digital Library offers an exceptional encounter with antiquity. Using the world's most advanced imaging technology, the Digital Library preserves thousands of scroll fragments, including the oldest known copies of biblical texts, now accessible to the...

www.deadseascrolls.org.il

However, with my limited proficiency in Hebrew, it would take me a considerable amount of time to comb through these fragments.

daq · Dec 21, 2022

HARK! said:
I found them.

Rule of Blessings

1Q28b-1000 - 1Q Sb

The Dead Sea Scrolls - 1Q Rule of Blessings

The Leon Levy Dead Sea Scrolls Digital Library offers an exceptional encounter with antiquity. Using the world's most advanced imaging technology, the Digital Library preserves thousands of scroll fragments, including the oldest known copies of biblical texts, now accessible to the...

www.deadseascrolls.org.il

However, with my limited proficiency in Hebrew, it would take me a considerable amount of time to comb through these fragments.

It appears that "the Master", (or Guardian according to Geza Vermes, Pg.444), is a title for the Meshiah or a messianic (future?) figure. If you read through some of the text in the actual Community Rule section in the Geza Vermes PDF, which begins with 1QS on Pg.129, this does appear to be probable in several places where "the Master" is mentioned in the texts which follow, (at least according to the Geza Vermes translations of the texts therein).

HARK! · Dec 21, 2022

daq said:
It appears that "the Master", (or Guardian according to Geza Vermes, Pg.444), is a title for the Meshiah or a messianic (future?) figure. If you read through some of the text in the actual Community Rule section in the Geza Vermes PDF, which begins with 1QS on Pg.129, this does appear to be probable in several places where "the Master" is mentioned in the texts which follow, (at least according to the Geza Vermes translations of the texts therein).

If the Master is blessing the Prince; then who is the Prince of the Congregation?

Notice that there is some text missing in this passage:

The Master shall bless the Prince of the Congregation ... and shall renew for him the Covenant

daq · Dec 21, 2022

HARK! said:
If the Master is blessing the Prince; then who is the Prince of the Congregation?

Notice that there is some text missing in this passage:

The Master shall bless the Prince of the Congregation ... and shall renew for him the Covenant

I think the translator, (Geza Vermes), is rendering מבקר (mebaqqar) as Master. This word is thought by others to mean something like Overseer, Shepherd, or Guardian in the DSS, and literally means from/of the morning, (boqer), or from/of the herd, (baqar, (more likely)). If so, this is a title held by a particular individual, certainly a human being, a man. In similar texts he is called Mebaqqar of the camps or Mebaqqar of all the camps. Also, if this is true, "Master" is a confusing translation decision, imho.

Lulav · Dec 22, 2022

HARK! said:
The Master shall bless the Prince of the Congregation ... and shall renew for him the Covenant

Which Covenant do you think he's referring to? what is the context there?

HARK! · Dec 22, 2022

Lulav said:
Which Covenant do you think he's referring to? what is the context there?

I suppose that it's the one mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31.

daq · Dec 23, 2022

Lulav said:
Which Covenant do you think he's referring to? what is the context there?

HARK! said:
I suppose that it's the one mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31.

The following link is a long read, (or study), but well worth the time for anyone truly interested in this topic. However one should keep in mind that it is only a theory, the main point of which is that the documents in question concern an annual assembly of the whole Community, of the various "camps" that were spread out all over Yisrael. It goes into much detail regarding the various rules and order of the assembly during this time, yearly, considered by the Community as an annual Renewal of the Covenant, (and yes, likely speaking of their understanding of the Renewed Covenant in Jeremiah 31). The terms "מבקר of the camp" and "מבקר of all the camps", (which are not the same title nor the same person), are also discussed.

The Covenant Renewal Ceremony as the Main Function of Qumran

Unlike any other group or philosophy in ancient Judaism, the ya?ad sect obliged all members of the sect to leave their places of residence all over the country and gather in the sect’s central site to participate in a special annual ceremony of renewal of the covenant between God and each of the...

www.mdpi.com

daq · Dec 24, 2022

There is also the Maskil, so I went to search this in the Geza Vermes PDF and found his renderings listed in the General Index, (which begins on Pg. 751 of the PDF). Under the word Guardian he has the following entry:

PDF Pg. 764
Guardian (mebaqqer)
psalm recital
at Qumran
in towns/camps
in towns/camps and at Qumran compared
see also Master

Under the word Maskil he has the following two entries:

PDF Pg. 771-772
maskil see Master
Masoretic text
Master (maskil)
Exhortation to Sons of Dawn
precepts for
rules for
see also Guardian

And below that on the same page:
mebaqqer, see Guardian

--------------------------------------------------

So it appears he has rendered mebaqqer as Guardian and maskil as Master.

Lulav · Dec 24, 2022

daq said:
The following link is a long read, (or study), but well worth the time for anyone truly interested in this topic. However one should keep in mind that it is only a theory, the main point of which is that the documents in question concern an annual assembly of the whole Community, of the various "camps" that were spread out all over Yisrael. It goes into much detail regarding the various rules and order of the assembly during this time, yearly, considered by the Community as an annual Renewal of the Covenant, (and yes, likely speaking of their understanding of the Renewed Covenant in Jeremiah 31). The terms "מבקר of the camp" and "מבקר of all the camps", (which are not the same title nor the same person), are also discussed.

The Covenant Renewal Ceremony as the Main Function of Qumran

Unlike any other group or philosophy in ancient Judaism, the ya?ad sect obliged all members of the sect to leave their places of residence all over the country and gather in the sect’s central site to participate in a special annual ceremony of renewal of the covenant between God and each of the...

www.mdpi.com

"the yearly gathering during the festival of Shavuot of all members of the communities that composed the yaḥad sect"

Wouldn't that invalidate the commandment to gather in Jerusalem for this Holy Moed?

HARK! · Dec 24, 2022

Lulav said:
"the yearly gathering during the festival of Shavuot of all members of the communities that composed the yaḥad sect"

Wouldn't that invalidate the commandment to gather in Jerusalem for this Holy Moed?

In as much as going to Jerusalem to a Moed that was being presided over by someone who was not the true Kohen Gadol?

If you were the true Kohen Gadol; would you go to Jerusalem to submit to the imposter; or would you lead your flock independently?

daq · Dec 24, 2022

Lulav said:
"the yearly gathering during the festival of Shavuot of all members of the communities that composed the yaḥad sect"

Wouldn't that invalidate the commandment to gather in Jerusalem for this Holy Moed?

I suppose not if one went up to the holy city Yerushalem of above.
For some examples, see Dan 6:10, Isa 66:23, and Heb 12:22-24.

Aaron112 · Jan 7, 2023

HARK! said:
If you were the true Kohen Gadol; would you go to Jerusalem to submit to the imposter; or would you lead your flock independently?

Who would the 'true Kohen Gadol' be ruled by , led by, or directed by ? Who would he get his instructions from, whether in fact , in practice, or if applicable according to Yahweh's Own Instructions/Word/Plan ?

Who are the Zadokites Speaking of?

שמע

Messianic

שמע

Messianic

Y'shua is His Name

שמע

שמע

Messianic

שמע

Messianic

שמע

Messianic

Y'shua is His Name

שמע

Messianic

Messianic

Y'shua is His Name

שמע

Messianic

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