Middle Ages Hebrew Manuscript shines Light on Jesus' TRUE Genealogy

Lulav · Dec 15, 2022

We were discussing this in another thread and it really was going off track, so I rec'd a request to start a new thread where it could be discussed in depth.

Many believe that there are some discrepancies between the two genealogies in the Gospels of Jesus. One found in Matthew and the other found in Luke.

Here they are side by side.

As you can see the only thing they have in common is King David and his genealogy leading back to Abraham in Matthews version and to God (with Adam) in Luke's version.

Matthew starts at Abraham and goes down to Joseph
Luke orders his backwards from Jesus to Joseph and then to Heli

However why, when Joseph is only the adoptive father would he have two lineages put down for posterity?

Doesn't make sense, does it?
Did Matthew make a mistake?
Did Luke?
Why don't they match up?

If you'll take a closer look you will see that in Matthew there is only one Joseph in the line, and we know that following back from Abraham there will be no other either.

But when you look at Luke's version you will see this (I've taken out this part but it is from the chart above. )

Notice there are three other Joseph's in this genealogy?

It is said that when the LORD records something three times we are supposed to take close notice.

What if? This genealogy in Matthew is not the husband of Miriam?

But instead this Joseph is the father of Miriam, Jesus Mother?

They would have to trace back through the fathers line but perhaps it should look like this:

We'll get to the Manuscript next post.

Lulav · Dec 15, 2022

According to Papias of Hierapolis (70-130 A.D.), the Gospel of Matthew was written in the Hebrew language and some Christians translated it into Greek, which was the lingua franca in those days, and perhaps other languages. Eusebius preserved the excerpt from Papias on the origins of the Gospel of Matthew in his writings: "Matthew put the logia in an ordered arrangement in the Hebrew language, but each translated it as best he could."

Papias was a Greek Apostolic Father, Bishop of Hierapolis, and author who lived c. 60 – c. 130 AD. He wrote the Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord in five books. This work, which is lost apart from brief excerpts in the works of Irenaeus of Lyons and Eusebius of Caesarea, is an important early source on Christian oral tradition and especially on the origins of the canonical Gospels.

Papias of Hierapolis (c. AD 60-130) was the bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia (present day Turkey) during the early part of the second century. A disciple of the apostle John and a companion of Polycarp, Papias is recognized as one of the Apostolic Fathers, a group of early church leaders directly connected with the apostles.

From Papias we learn details of the origins of the gospels of Matthew and Mark. He describes Mark as the interpreter of Peter, and (in apparent defense of Mark against perceived deficiencies), credits him with preserving accurately all that Peter taught about the words and deeds of Jesus, while acknowledging that he did so “without order”. Papias describes the gospel of Matthew as an “ordered arrangement” written originally in the Hebrew (Aramaic) language, which was later translated and circulated in Greek.

The information we have about Papias (ad 60–130) and his work was given by Eusebius of Caesarea and Irenaeus of Lyons. Irenaeus stated that Papias had heard the apostle John preach and also knew Polycarp.

The statement that Matthew wrote down sayings of Jesus in Hebrew was affirmed by Papias. Irenaeus understood this as a reference to Hebraisms in Matthew’s Gospel, whereas Origen took this to mean that Matthew originally wrote his Gospel in Hebrew.

So do there exist manuscripts of the gospel of Matthew?

Yes, here is a page from one that is held in the Bodleian Library at Oxford University, one of the oldest libraries in Europe.

Translated, the circled red part is Yoseph abi Miryam = Joseph father of Mary.

Lulav · Dec 15, 2022

There is another interesting thing I found in Luke's genealogy and that is that the name of Jesus is actually in there!

Hard to notice but it's there.

Here's my chart again

The name encircled in Blue says 'Jose'

This name taken back to the Greek will give you Ἰησοῦ which is Greek for Joshua which is an anglicized version of Yeshua!

disciple Clint · Dec 15, 2022

Lulav said:
We were discussing this in another thread and it really was going off track, so I rec'd a request to start a new thread where it could be discussed in depth.

Many believe that there are some discrepancies between the two genealogies in the Gospels of Jesus. One found in Matthew and the other found in Luke.

Here they are side by side.

View attachment 325010
As you can see the only thing they have in common is King David and his genealogy leading back to Abraham in Matthews version and to God (with Adam) in Luke's version.

Matthew starts at Abraham and goes down to Joseph
Luke orders his backwards from Jesus to Joseph and then to Heli

However why, when Joseph is only the adoptive father would he have two lineages put down for posterity?

Doesn't make sense, does it?
Did Matthew make a mistake?
Did Luke?
Why don't they match up?

If you'll take a closer look you will see that in Matthew there is only one Joseph in the line, and we know that following back from Abraham there will be no other either.

But when you look at Luke's version you will see this (I've taken out this part but it is from the chart above. )

View attachment 325013

Notice there are three other Joseph's in this genealogy?

It is said that when the LORD records something three times we are supposed to take close notice.

What if? This genealogy in Matthew is not the husband of Miriam?

But instead this Joseph is the father of Miriam, Jesus Mother?

They would have to trace back through the fathers line but perhaps it should look like this:

View attachment 325017

We'll get to the Manuscript next post.

Why Are Jesus' Genealogies in Matthew and Luke Different?

The birth narratives in both Matthew and Luke help answer the question, “Who is Jesus and where did he come from?” One of the ways each book does this is…

zondervanacademic.com

BobRyan · Dec 15, 2022

one account traces through Mary's lineage and the other account traces through Joseph's.

Xeno.of.athens · Dec 15, 2022

BobRyan said:
one account traces through Mary's lineage and the other account traces through Joseph's.

It's speculative which account traces what, really, isn't it?

BobRyan · Dec 15, 2022

Xeno.of.athens said:
It's speculative which account traces what, really, isn't it?

not entirely accurate.

Luke 3 - the lineage of Mary

Luke 3:23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,

This is where son-in-law is the alternate in vs 23 AND we note Jesus is not actually the biological son of Joseph nor is Joseph the biological son of Heli but rather the son-in-law

Matt 1 confirms it. (Matt 1 is the lineage of Joseph)
Matt 1:16 16 Jacob fathered Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.

"begat"/"fathered" is a stronger term for lineage as opposed to son vs son-in-law

=================

What does the Bible say about sons? | GotQuestions.org

"Son in the Bible is used in several different ways, but it always refers to a relationship or affiliation. In Hebrew, it is ben (think “Benjamin,” which means “son of my right hand”), in Aramaic bar (“Simon Bar-Jonah” of Matthew 16:17), and in Greek, auios. It is most often used to indicate a direct descendent—either a child or a grandchild. But son is also used as a metaphor to reflect a characteristic, profession, or citizenship.

Primarily, a “son” in the Bible is a direct male descendent. The word was not limited to the first generation; when Paul preached in Antioch, he called the Jews present “sons of the family of Abraham.”

"Son can also refer to a person’s character or identity. A “son of Aaron” was a priest, a “son of Asaph” was a musician and songwriter (2 Chronicles 35:14–15), and a “son of the prophets” was a prophet (2 Kings 2:3). “Son of” was also used metaphorically to identify one’s nature or a personality trait: Jesus is called the “Son of God,” a title communicating His divine nature (1 John 5:13); and the “sons of thunder”—James and John—were known for their somewhat outgoing personalities (Mark 3:17). Son could refer to nationality: a “son of Zion” was a Jew—a citizen of Israel or Jerusalem. Son also indicated religion: sons of Chemosh (Numbers 21:29) and sons of Belial (Deuteronomy 13:13)."

So the term "son" in the Bible is very flexible/fluid and can refer to a wide number of relationships between two people. But "begat" / "fathered" - is a very specific term.

Hank77 · Dec 15, 2022

Lulav said:
There is another interesting thing I found in Luke's genealogy and that is that the name of Jesus is actually in there!

Hard to notice but it's there.

Here's my chart again

View attachment 325018

The name encircled in Blue says 'Jose'

This name taken back to the Greek will give you Ἰησοῦ which is Greek for Joshua which is an anglicized version of Yeshua!

I can find only one scripture that uses the name 'Jose', all the rest are 'Joses' which is 'Joseph' in Greek as well as Spanish.

KJV
Luke 3:29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"Jose" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Lulav · Dec 15, 2022

Hank77 said:
I can find only one scripture that uses the name 'Jose', all the rest are 'Joses' which is 'Joseph' in Greek as well as Spanish.

KJV
Luke 3:29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"Jose" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Xeno.of.athens · Dec 15, 2022

Lulav said:
View attachment 325065

The Greek says "Iesou" not Joshua.

Lulav · Dec 16, 2022

Xeno.of.athens said:
It's speculative which account traces what, really, isn't it?

Not when you understand that the two Joseph's at the head and tail of them are not the same person.
The one in Matthew , as in the parchment above, shows that that Joseph was the father of Mary, not Heli as some denominations believe.

Lulav · Dec 16, 2022

BobRyan said:
not entirely accurate.

Luke 3 - the lineage of Mary

Luke 3:23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,

This is where son-in-law is the alternate in vs 23 AND we note Jesus is not actually the biological son of Joseph nor is Joseph the biological son of Heli but rather the son-in-law

Matt 1 confirms it. (Matt 1 is the lineage of Joseph)
Matt 1:16 16 Jacob fathered Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.

"begat"/"fathered" is a stronger term for lineage as opposed to son vs son-in-law

=================

What does the Bible say about sons? | GotQuestions.org

"Son in the Bible is used in several different ways, but it always refers to a relationship or affiliation. In Hebrew, it is ben (think “Benjamin,” which means “son of my right hand”), in Aramaic bar (“Simon Bar-Jonah” of Matthew 16:17), and in Greek, auios. It is most often used to indicate a direct descendent—either a child or a grandchild. But son is also used as a metaphor to reflect a characteristic, profession, or citizenship.

Primarily, a “son” in the Bible is a direct male descendent. The word was not limited to the first generation; when Paul preached in Antioch, he called the Jews present “sons of the family of Abraham.”

"Son can also refer to a person’s character or identity. A “son of Aaron” was a priest, a “son of Asaph” was a musician and songwriter (2 Chronicles 35:14–15), and a “son of the prophets” was a prophet (2 Kings 2:3). “Son of” was also used metaphorically to identify one’s nature or a personality trait: Jesus is called the “Son of God,” a title communicating His divine nature (1 John 5:13); and the “sons of thunder”—James and John—were known for their somewhat outgoing personalities (Mark 3:17). Son could refer to nationality: a “son of Zion” was a Jew—a citizen of Israel or Jerusalem. Son also indicated religion: sons of Chemosh (Numbers 21:29) and sons of Belial (Deuteronomy 13:13)."

So the term "son" in the Bible is very flexible/fluid and can refer to a wide number of relationships between two people. But "begat" / "fathered" - is a very specific term.

So bob, you are saying it's the opposite of what I've presented?

Lulav · Dec 16, 2022

Xeno.of.athens said:
The Greek says "Iesou" not Joshua.

Which is Jesus, which is from Joshua which is from his Hebrew name which means Salvation - Yeshua

BobRyan · Dec 16, 2022

Lulav said:
Which is Jesus, which is from Joshua which is from his Hebrew name which means Salvation - Yeshua

Well "Jacob begat Joseph" seems like a stronger and more specific term.

The Lineage of Jesus – Matthew 1:1-17 & Luke 3:23-38 | Grace Bible Church

www.gracebibleny.org

Who Was Joseph's Father in Jesus' Genealogy? - Apologetics Press

In his book The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy, skeptic Dennis McKinsey confidently asserts that the “contradictory” genealogies found in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 open up “a Pandora’s box that apologists would just as soon remained closed forever.”1 One “contradiction” he cited revolves around the...

apologeticspress.org

"Admittedly, on the surface, the two statements may appear contradictory. However, there actually is a very simple explanation for the differences in the two verses: Matthew gives the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph, while Luke presents the genealogy of Jesus through His mother, Mary. Thus, Jacob is Joseph’s father (in Matthew 1:16), while Heli is Mary’s (in Luke 3:23)."

Leaf473 · Dec 17, 2022

Lulav said:
According to Papias of Hierapolis (70-130 A.D.), the Gospel of Matthew was written in the Hebrew language and some Christians translated it into Greek, which was the lingua franca in those days, and perhaps other languages. Eusebius preserved the excerpt from Papias on the origins of the Gospel of Matthew in his writings: "Matthew put the logia in an ordered arrangement in the Hebrew language, but each translated it as best he could."

Papias was a Greek Apostolic Father, Bishop of Hierapolis, and author who lived c. 60 – c. 130 AD. He wrote the Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord in five books. This work, which is lost apart from brief excerpts in the works of Irenaeus of Lyons and Eusebius of Caesarea, is an important early source on Christian oral tradition and especially on the origins of the canonical Gospels.

Papias of Hierapolis (c. AD 60-130) was the bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia (present day Turkey) during the early part of the second century. A disciple of the apostle John and a companion of Polycarp, Papias is recognized as one of the Apostolic Fathers, a group of early church leaders directly connected with the apostles.

From Papias we learn details of the origins of the gospels of Matthew and Mark. He describes Mark as the interpreter of Peter, and (in apparent defense of Mark against perceived deficiencies), credits him with preserving accurately all that Peter taught about the words and deeds of Jesus, while acknowledging that he did so “without order”. Papias describes the gospel of Matthew as an “ordered arrangement” written originally in the Hebrew (Aramaic) language, which was later translated and circulated in Greek.

The information we have about Papias (ad 60–130) and his work was given by Eusebius of Caesarea and Irenaeus of Lyons. Irenaeus stated that Papias had heard the apostle John preach and also knew Polycarp.

The statement that Matthew wrote down sayings of Jesus in Hebrew was affirmed by Papias. Irenaeus understood this as a reference to Hebraisms in Matthew’s Gospel, whereas Origen took this to mean that Matthew originally wrote his Gospel in Hebrew.

So do there exist manuscripts of the gospel of Matthew?

Yes, here is a page from one that is held in the Bodleian Library at Oxford University, one of the oldest libraries in Europe.

View attachment 325016
Translated, the circled red part is Yoseph abi Miryam = Joseph father of Mary.

Is the manuscript at the Bodleian the complete text of Matthew?

Lulav · Dec 18, 2022

BobRyan said:
Well "Jacob begat Joseph" seems like a stronger and more specific term.

The Lineage of Jesus – Matthew 1:1-17 & Luke 3:23-38 | Grace Bible Church

The Lineage of Jesus – Matthew 1:1-17 & Luke 3:23-38 | Grace Bible Church

www.gracebibleny.org

Who Was Joseph's Father in Jesus' Genealogy? - Apologetics Press

In his book The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy, skeptic Dennis McKinsey confidently asserts that the “contradictory” genealogies found in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 open up “a Pandora’s box that apologists would just as soon remained closed forever.”1 One “contradiction” he cited revolves around the...

apologeticspress.org

"Admittedly, on the surface, the two statements may appear contradictory. However, there actually is a very simple explanation for the differences in the two verses: Matthew gives the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph, while Luke presents the genealogy of Jesus through His mother, Mary. Thus, Jacob is Joseph’s father (in Matthew 1:16), while Heli is Mary’s (in Luke 3:23)."

I've presented it opposite so that's what I'm concentrating on for this thread.

ARBITER01 · Dec 20, 2022

Genealogies can be interesting.

Gen 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Satan attacked the lineage of the man, but GOD brought the messiah through the woman, so her lineage from Nathan was the one of real importance, and the one listed in Luke.

atpollard · Dec 20, 2022

1 Timothy 1:4?

[just kidding ... but somebody had to say it]

Jonaitis · Dec 20, 2022

Lulav said:
But instead this Joseph is the father of Miriam, Jesus Mother?

Well, it can't really work:

"..the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Joshua was born, who is called Christ."
- Matthew 1:16

"Joshua, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph"
- Luke 3:23

There is no way to reconcile them. We have to accept that the Lord Joshua has two genealogies somehow.

ARBITER01 · Dec 20, 2022

Lulav said:
Not when you understand that the two Joseph's at the head and tail of them are not the same person.
The one in Matthew , as in the parchment above, shows that that Joseph was the father of Mary, not Heli as some denominations believe.

That later manuscript creates a problem just like the syriac peshitta did for that community. Let me explain,...

Mat 1:11 and Josiah begat Jechoniah and his brethren, at the time of the carrying away to Babylon.

Two big glaring problems here, Jechoniah did not have brothers, he had only one brother, and Josiah did not give birth to Jechoniah, he gave birth to Jehoiakim, Jechoniah's father.

Matthew bridged the gospel account here with Jechoniah's name to not mention Jehoiakim the cursed king.

There is no numerical problem in the Greek account, and in fact, this manuscript that you purpose, adds to the numerical count by inserting Mary into Joseph's genealogy, and thereby making the total generations 43 instead of 42 like Matthew totaled up.

Just a bit of Maryology going on in some manuscripts.

Middle Ages Hebrew Manuscript shines Light on Jesus' TRUE Genealogy

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