The Gospel Verses Religion

RobertPate · Oct 6, 2022

GDL said:
Isn't it fascinating that the canon was settled so long ago, and people always have opinions. James says enough about Jesus Christ to let his original audience & us know whom he served. More about the canon is Jewish and based in Law than it looks like we'll have you acknowledge. And thank God for James' instruction about Biblical Faith and for Paul coming in afterward to clarify what he did.

Are you referring to James as this sinner & the dreg of humanity you're speaking of?

Do you remotely understand what Jesus has done for the dregs of humanity and that He is still applying what He's done to the remaining dregs who will turn to Him? Do you understand what He's still doing for us when we sin and what He's doing for us to approach Him when we are in times of need?

You're taking this "complete in Christ" to places it does not speak of. Keep reading after those verses until you see the instruction about not sinning. Are you experientially perfected in Love for God & brother, let alone anywhere near maturity?

Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus God sees his people as perfect and complete "In Christ". This is the Gospel that has justified the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and has reconciled us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. No laws, rules or religion needed.

Daniel Peres · Oct 6, 2022

Robert Pate said:
Many believe that the book of James should not have been included in the cannons. Martin Luther was one of them.

And what authority does any Christian have to remove books from the New Testament? I am always amused when non-catholics acuse Catholics of treating the pope like a King that can do anything he wants do. But people like you feel you have the authority to remove books from the New Testament. No pope has the authority to reject the Epistle of James, yet you do. I find that fascinating.

Also, Martin Luther may had an occasional thought about removing the Epistle of Janes, but he didn’t. What he did do is demote, along with other New Testament books, to second class status. It’s clear you agree with him about James, but I wonder what you think about the other books.

Robert Pate said:
There is little to nothing about Christ in the book of James. The book of James is very Jewish and is based upon law.

This comment demonstrates that not only are you ignorant of first century Christisnity, but you are also ignorant about first century Judaism. It’s a fact thst first century Jews did not believe faith without good works is dead. They belief was more like “faith without works of the law is dead.”

Why do you think the widow in described in Mark 12:41–44, and Luke 21:1–4 was living in such poverty. In James 2:15-16, he describes the kind of eorh he was referring to when he wrote, “If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that?”
The verses in James 2:15-16 do not have anything to do with the Mosaic Law, they are all about the morsl law, and first century Jews were not very obediant to God’s Moral law. If they did, then the widow in Mark 12:41–44, and Luke 21:1–4 wouldn’t be living in such poverty. But the Jews didn’t obey God’s moral law, and when they would see the widow in the street they probably said to her, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and did nothing to supply her bodily needs. That’s exactly what James condemned, and yet you actually believe the Epistle of James was written for the Judaizers. Unbelievable!

I also find it funny, that for someone who proclaims to despise the Judaizers, you have a fanatical aversion to good works. Just like you, the Pharisees were unable to distinguish good works from other works. Because of their fsnatical views about all works, they hated Jesus for doing good works on the Sabbath. Just like you the Pharisees insisted all works on the Sabbath are bad.

After curing a man on the Sabbath, the Pharisees began to persecute for doing a good work on the Sabbath. In John 5:17 Jesus responded to them saying, “My Father is still working, and I also am working.” So, God the Father, and God the Son are always doing good works, shouldn’t we at least try to imitate them?

Robert Pate said:
Why would Jesus want to come back to this earth and live another life through a sinner?

Just when I thought I understood how unchristian your attitude is, you shock me with a question I would expect from a Muslim. Everytime a Christian proclaims that Jesus is God incarnate, how do the Muslims always respond? They always ask, “Why would God lower himself to our level?” Well, I’ll just answer you in the same way I answer Muslims. In the spirit of John 3:16, “Because God so loves the world.”

Robert Pate said:
Jesus is separate from sinners, Hebrews 7:26. You want to bring him down into the dregs of humanity.

Let’s set aside that your interpretation is extremly unchristian. I have a question for you. How can you go from praising Martin Luther for disrepecting the Epistle of James to quoting Hebrews, another New Testament book Martin Luther disrespected?

Daniel Peres · Oct 6, 2022

Clare73 said:
Precisely. . .and that is/was the heresy of Catholicism; i.e., the doctrine of faith plus works as necessary for salvation, rather than "through faith. . .not by works."

Precisely. . .but it was/is the teaching of Ephesians 2:8-9 from the beginning.
That it never occurred to the church prior to the Protestant Reformation clearly demonstrates the error of Catholicism in not believing Ephesians 2:8-9: "salvation is. . .through faith. . .not by works."

It did not until after the Reformation, and which it vehemently denied for several hundred years after it.

The Catholic Church declared in 425 that it is a heresy to teach that a person can earn their salvation with good works. If you want to deny the facts, there is nothing I can do to help you.

Der Alte · Oct 6, 2022

Robert Pate said:
Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus God sees his people as perfect and complete "In Christ". This is the Gospel that has justified the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and has reconciled us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. No laws, rules or religion needed.
Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus God sees his people as perfect and complete "In Christ". This is the Gospel that has justified the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and has reconciled us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. No laws, rules or religion needed.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Note, Jesus did NOT say "everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven," Jesus said "NOT everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." The Jesus at the judgement day, said "MANY," not a few, will call Him Lord, Lord and brag about the many "wonderful works" they claim they did. But Jesus will say to them "Depart from me you who work iniquity I never knew you." When Jesus says "never" He means "Never" not someday by and by.

Clare73 · Oct 6, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
As for Sola Fide, the Catholic Church never declared it a heresy prior to the Protestant Reformation because no Christian had ever believed in Sola Fide. None of the Heretical groups ever taught it either. and no Christian ever made statements in opposition to Sola Fide because the concept of Sola Fide never occurred to any Christian prior to the Protestant Reformation.

Daniel Peres said:
The Catholic Church declared in 425 that it is a heresy to teach that a person can earn their salvation with good works. If you want to deny the facts, there is nothing I can do to help you.

Your two posts above are in disagreement.
The first states the church never believed in salvation by "faith alone."
The second states the church believed that salvation is "not by works."

Sola Fide is "faith alone" for salvation.

If that never occurred to anyone prior to the 16th century, then salvation by "faith alone" never occurred to anyone prior to the 16th century.
Which means salvation was not limited to "faith alone" prior to the 16th century.
And that is contrary to Ephesians 2:8-9, and was the reason for the Reformation.

FenderTL5 · Oct 6, 2022

Clare73 said:
Your two posts above are in disagreement.
The first states the church never believed in salvation by "faith alone."
The second states the church believed that salvation is "not by works."

He didn't say that the Catholic Church taught Faith Alone, ever. He said one can't earn salvation by works.

Saving faith is never "alone" .
Ephesians 2 says Grace, through faith. Even there faith is not alone but is dependent on Grace.

The only place in the Holy Scriptures that the words "faith" and "alone" appear together as "faith alone" is when James wrote that we are not justified by "faith alone."
Faith without works is dead. There is a synergy requirement when faith is involved.

I

Daniel Peres · Oct 6, 2022

timothyu said:
It has nothing to do with being anti-Catholic but more precisely anti false Christianity where the Adversary could not alter scripture

You are not only uniformed, you are also ungrateful. Apparently, you are not aware of everything the Church that you despise had to endure so they you can enjoy your Bible. During the Great Persecution, the Romans would go seek out the priests and bishops and give them an ultimatum. The priests and bishops were given a choice, “Either you hand over your scriptures so we can destroy them or we will gouge out one of your eyes, and we will slice one of your Achilles’ tendons. These priests and bishops gladly accepted the consequences that came from protecting the scriptures. Now, a normal response would be, “Thank you very much!” But apparently you are not normal, and instead of appreciating all the suffering they endured to protect the scriptures, you think it’s appropriate to vilinize them.

You hate for the Catholic Church causes you to ignore the miracles that Gods has given the Church. I call them miracles because the things that happened to the Church that helped it grow and and fill the world with Christian morality, could have never have happened without God. I’ll give you a few examples.

1) You seem to hate Constantine, and yet isn’t it amazing that out of four co-existing Roman Emperors, Constantine, the only one of the four Roman emperors that did not persecute the Christians took control of the entire empire and then declared that Christians were free to practice their faith. But to you that’s just a coincidence.

2) It’s amazing enough that the Catholic Church took over the Empire, ambit it’s even more amazing when you realize they did it without fighting. What other weak persecuted organization has been able to conquer their oppressors without a fight. That doesn’t even make sense. God must be behind it.

3) When I first learned about Constantine’s baptism I was very moved. It was just before he died. Right before he was baptized, out of respect for Jesus he removed his royal purple robe, a purple robe just like the one the Romans Gad put on Jesus to mock him. Well, it turns out that the joke was on the Roman Empire, because it was no joke, Jesus really did deserve the purple robe.

Now I would also tell that your hate for governments and institutions is very unreasonable. You are ignoring all the good that has come with. For example:

1) The Catholic Church invented hospitals. It was a result of Catholicism love for doing good works, which I’m sure you hate. Out curiosity, when you or a love get seriously ill don’t you go to a hospital? I’m sure you do. How about a little gratitude.

2) Do you have a university education? If you do, then you have the Catholic Church to thank for inventing the university system.

I could go on but let’s move on.

You insist that governments are unchristian. Well the Catholic Church the longest lasting government in history. I think second place goes to some European country whose government is about 609 years old. That’s incredible that a government has lasted this long. It’s seems like the gates of Hell will never prevail. Also, another reason to believe that God is behind the amazing longevity of the Catholic Church is the fact that it has been so poorly mismanaged from the beginning. How is it possible such a mismanaged organization survive for so long.

What about the East-West schism? I find it interesting how the Eastern Orthodox Church refused the papal authority and the results of the refusal. Look at the Eastern Orthodox Church now. The city of their leader, the Patriarch of Constantinople, has been taken over by Muslims, the city’s name was changed by force to Istanbul, and instead of being under the authority of the pope, the Patriarch is now under the authority of the President of Turkey, a Muslim. Compare that to the fate of the Catholic Church after the schism. The Catholic Church is the only religious organization in the world with its own country.

In my opinion, none of the things I have mentioned here could have happened if God were not behind it.

Daniel Peres · Oct 6, 2022

Clare73 said:
Your two posts above are in disagreement.
The first states the church never believed in salvation by "faith alone."
The second states the church believed that salvation is "not by works."

Sola Fide is "faith alone" for salvation.

If that never occurred to anyone prior to the 16th century, then salvation by "faith alone" never occurred to anyone prior to the 16th century.
Which means salvation was not limited to "faith alone" prior to the 16th century.
And that is contrary to Ephesians 2:8-9, and was the reason for the Reformation.

There are two reasons you are having problems grasping my point. The first is that although the Catholic Church doesn’t teach faith plus works salvation, it does teach that faith itself is consists of belief and good works. The two go together to make faith. If a person is missing belief or good works the they don’t have faith.

Your second problem is that you insist on grouping all works together. You don’t distinguish good works from other types of works. This is the same problem the Pharisees had with Jesus and the way he observed the Sabbath. Just like you the Pharisees could not distinguish good works from other works. So whenever Jesus would do a good work on the Sabbath like healing someone, the Pharisees would go nuts because in there mind even a good work violated the Sabbath. Because of this, Jesus was angry with the Pharisees for having such hard hearts, and forbidding a person in need receive help. James was condemning the same thing, people being religious, and yet when they are faced with a person in need, they just say, “God bless you!” and move on even when they have the means to help.

Clare73 · Oct 6, 2022

FenderTL5 said:
He didn't say that the Catholic Church taught Faith Alone, ever. He said one can't earn salvation by works.

A distinction without a difference.

Saving faith is never "alone" .
Ephesians 2 says Grace, through faith. Even there faith is not alone but is dependent on Grace.

The Scriptural conflict addressed in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 3:28 is not between faith and grace, it is between faith and works.

The only place in the Holy Scriptures that the words "faith" and "alone" appear together as "faith alone" is when James wrote that we are not justified by "faith alone."

You think salvation. . ."by faith. . .not by works" (Ephesians 2:8-9) and
righteousness (justification) "by faith apart from works" (Romans 3:28) are not
the same thing as "faith alone"?

Faith without works is dead. There is a synergy requirement when faith is involved.

We're talking about salvation, not the nature of faith which necessarily has works.
But it is not the works of faith which save, it is "faith apart from its own works" which saves and justifies.

Clare73 · Oct 6, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
There are two reasons you are having problems grasping my point. The first is that although the Catholic Church doesn’t teach faith plus works salvation, it does teach that
faith itself is consists of belief and good works. The two go together to make faith. If a person is missing belief or good works the they don’t have faith.

You're preaching to the choir (believer and worker) on that one.

Your second problem is that you insist on grouping all works together. You don’t distinguish good works from other types of works. This is the same problem the Pharisees had with Jesus and the way he observed the Sabbath. Just like you the Pharisees could not distinguish good works from other works. So whenever Jesus would do a good work on the Sabbath like healing someone, the Pharisees would go nuts because in there mind even a good work violated the Sabbath. Because of this, Jesus was angry with the Pharisees for having such hard hearts, and forbidding a person in need receive help. James was condemning the same thing, people being religious, and yet when they are faced with a person in need, they just say, “God bless you!” and move on even when they have the means to help.

In the NT, "works" is understood to be keeping God's law.
True faith has works of obedience.
But only the faith, not its necessary works of obedience, are related to salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9)
and justification/righteousness (Romans 3:28).

timothyu · Oct 6, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
In my opinion, none of the things I have mentioned here could have happened if God were not behind it.

As i said, God uses his enemies for his own purpose.

Daniel Peres said:
You hate for the Catholic Church

That is a wild assumption

Daniel Peres said:
Now I would also tell that your hate for governments and institutions is very unreasonable.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Daniel Peres said:
Well the Catholic Church the longest lasting government in history.

I prefer the governance of the Kingdom, not of man.

Daniel Peres · Oct 7, 2022

Clare73 said:
You're preaching to the choir (believer and worker) on that one.

In the NT, "works" is understood to be keeping God's law.
True faith has works of obedience.
But only the faith, not its necessary works of obedience, are related to salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9)
and justification/righteousness (Romans 3:28).

I agree with you, and Ephesians 2:8-9 that our salvation is not the result of any work, including good works. These verses are very clear that we are saved by God’s grace.

However, what you are not understanding is we do good works because of God’s saving grace. You believe I am saying we have an obligation to do good works, but what I am trying to tell you is that the good works that Christians do are gifts to the Christian who do the the good works, and it makes no sense to me that we should believe that we are permitted to reject God’s grace to do good works.

Also, you need to ask yourself why Paul specified that one is not saved by “works of the law.” Paul was a highly educated man and was a very skilled writer. If Paul had meant to include good works in that verse, then he definitely would have just said, “one is not saved by works.” But he didn’t. Instead, henarrowed it down to a specific type of work, that being “works of the law.”

RobertPate · Oct 7, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
And what authority does any Christian have to remove books from the New Testament? I am always amused when non-catholics acuse Catholics of treating the pope like a King that can do anything he wants do. But people like you feel you have the authority to remove books from the New Testament. No pope has the authority to reject the Epistle of James, yet you do. I find that fascinating.

Also, Martin Luther may had an occasional thought about removing the Epistle of Janes, but he didn’t. What he did do is demote, along with other New Testament books, to second class status. It’s clear you agree with him about James, but I wonder what you think about the other books.

This comment demonstrates that not only are you ignorant of first century Christisnity, but you are also ignorant about first century Judaism. It’s a fact thst first century Jews did not believe faith without good works is dead. They belief was more like “faith without works of the law is dead.”

Why do you think the widow in described in Mark 12:41–44, and Luke 21:1–4 was living in such poverty. In James 2:15-16, he describes the kind of eorh he was referring to when he wrote, “If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that?”
The verses in James 2:15-16 do not have anything to do with the Mosaic Law, they are all about the morsl law, and first century Jews were not very obediant to God’s Moral law. If they did, then the widow in Mark 12:41–44, and Luke 21:1–4 wouldn’t be living in such poverty. But the Jews didn’t obey God’s moral law, and when they would see the widow in the street they probably said to her, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and did nothing to supply her bodily needs. That’s exactly what James condemned, and yet you actually believe the Epistle of James was written for the Judaizers. Unbelievable!

I also find it funny, that for someone who proclaims to despise the Judaizers, you have a fanatical aversion to good works. Just like you, the Pharisees were unable to distinguish good works from other works. Because of their fsnatical views about all works, they hated Jesus for doing good works on the Sabbath. Just like you the Pharisees insisted all works on the Sabbath are bad.

After curing a man on the Sabbath, the Pharisees began to persecute for doing a good work on the Sabbath. In John 5:17 Jesus responded to them saying, “My Father is still working, and I also am working.” So, God the Father, and God the Son are always doing good works, shouldn’t we at least try to imitate them?

Just when I thought I understood how unchristian your attitude is, you shock me with a question I would expect from a Muslim. Everytime a Christian proclaims that Jesus is God incarnate, how do the Muslims always respond? They always ask, “Why would God lower himself to our level?” Well, I’ll just answer you in the same way I answer Muslims. In the spirit of John 3:16, “Because God so loves the world.”

Let’s set aside that your interpretation is extremly unchristian. I have a question for you. How can you go from praising Martin Luther for disrepecting the Epistle of James to quoting Hebrews, another New Testament book Martin Luther disrespected?

There is a big problem with religion, especially the Catholic religion. Religion is an attempt to justify the flesh. This is why Paul said, "By the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

Catholicism is a very fleshy religion. I occasionally watch the Catholic channel. What does all of that gold stuff have to do with Jesus Christ? And those robes, wow, what does one of those things cost? After watching the Catholic channel everything else looks rather drab. It's the next best thing to going to Disney Land.

GDL · Oct 7, 2022

Robert Pate said:
Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus God sees his people as perfect and complete "In Christ". This is the Gospel that has justified the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and has reconciled us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. No laws, rules or religion needed.

Wrong again. You're a tough case, but we'll keep trying.

RobertPate · Oct 7, 2022

GDL said:
Wrong again. You're a tough case, but we'll keep trying.

The rejection of the Gospel is the rejection of Christ.

Daniel Peres · Oct 7, 2022

timothyu said:
As i said, God uses his enemies for his own purpose.

That is a wild assumption

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

I prefer the governance of the Kingdom, not of man.

I can do nothing to help you recognize miracles. Personally, when I see impossible things happen, I believe God is behind it. And you would probably respond to me with, “How do you know that the Devil isn’t responsible for those impossible events?” It’s simple, although the Catholic Church has caused some problems, it is also responsible for an enormous amount of good. There is no reason to believe that the Devil would be behind anything that was responsible for so much good in the world.

I will point out another thing. I don’t know how you feel about this, but every Christian I have ever known agree with the belief that Christians are to be “in the world, “but not “of the world.” What this means to me is that because we are “in the world” we are often going to get our hands dirty, and that includes the Catholic Church.

I also take issue with your debate style, which I believe is of no value to Christian debate. Please let me explain. The purpose of Christian debate should be to help both Christians understand the truth better.

Each person in the debate should try to explain the Christian truth as they sincerely see it, concerning the issues being debated. However, I don’t see you as making any serious effort to show me the errors of my beliefs. Whenever I present you with an argument, I do so by using facts and reason to convince you of the truth, as I sincerely see it. In our exchange you always respond in the same way, you say you disagree without using any facts and reason to contradict my position. You then present me with a new argument that doesn’t offer a refutation to my argument. It’s as if you just expect me to take accept your position without questioning it, and I don’t see how either of benefit from that. Let me give you an example of this…

Earlier in our debate I presented the following argument. I asked you, “If Jesus did not want to establish a visible church in the world, with its own governmental structure , then why do we see in Matthew 16:19 that Jesus said to Peter, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom?” Jesus made this declaration immediately follow Peter’s declaration that Jesus is the Messiah. In other words, Jesus confirmed the truth of Peter’s declaration that he was the Messiah, and immediately Jesus declared the person who would be receive the “Keys of the Kingdom.” Jesus clearly did this because, just like in the Old Testament Israelite/Jewish Kingdoms, the Messiah had to give this position to somebody, and he chose Peter.

Now, if the Israelite/Jewish kingdoms of the Old Testament, all visible earthly governments, why should we believe that the new Messiah’s kingdom does not also include a visible earthly government? Why would Jesus appoint a visible man in the world to the position of being the person with the keys to an invisible kingdom?” As the person with the “Keys of the Kingdom” how would it be possible for him to execute his duties, as holder of the “Keys of the Kingdom,” in a church without an earthly governmental structure? Lastly, as the holder of the “Keys of the Kingdom,” Peter was, in fact, the viceroy (Representative of the King), just as it was in the Old Testament Israelite/Jewish Kingdoms. Therefore, Jesus gave Peter authority over his earthly kingdom while he was away. I am sure we both agree that Jesus did leave, and he has not returned yet. Peter, the original viceroy died long ago, but our Messiah, Jesus, is still alive, and therefore, as our Messiah, he stills needs to have his viceroy, with the “Keys to the Kingdom” in this world. There simply is no other person in this world that can possibly posses the “Keys of the Kingdom” other than the successor of Peter, which today is Pope Francis (which by the way, does not make me happy).

Please respond to my arguments with opposing arguments based on facts and reason to show me where I have gone wrong in formulating my beliefs. Don’t just tell me that I am wrong.

Of course, you are free to believe as the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Muslims, and many Protestants believe that reason is of no use in trying to understand God.

Daniel Peres · Oct 7, 2022

Robert Pate said:
There is a big problem with religion, especially the Catholic religion. Religion is an attempt to justify the flesh. This is why Paul said, "By the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

Please stop making strawmen arguments, Catholics do not believe that "deed of the law" are of any value. I have given you many undisputable facts about the Catholic Church, and the fact that you keep making this false accusation just means you still don't understand Catholicism.

Robert Pate said:
Catholicism is a very fleshy religion. I occasionally watch the Catholic channel. What does all of that gold stuff have to do with Jesus Christ? And those robes, wow, what does one of those things cost? After watching the Catholic channel everything else looks rather drab. It's the next best thing to going to Disney Land.

It's fleshy because the Word became flesh. As for the gold, let me ask you this, "Isn't Jesus our Messiah?" Wasn't it because he is the Messiah, that in Matthew 2:11 the wise men presented the baby Jesus with the gift of gold? I presume that their act of reverence towards our Messiah, doesn't offend you. So, then why do you find it so offensive that Catholics engage in the same act of reverence for Jesus, our Messiah? I'd really love to see your explanation.

Daniel Peres · Oct 7, 2022

Robert Pate said:
The rejection of the Gospel is the rejection of Christ.

Yes, but you seem to have rejected everything contained in the Gospel except the doctrine of the Trinity. Or have you also come to reject that to? But assuming that you do still believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, let me ask you a question. Do you use the word "Trinity" to describe the relationship between the Father, and the Son, and the Holy spirit? If you do, are you aware of the fact that the word "Trinity" appears nowhere in the Bible? Are you aware of the fact that the word "Trinity" was created by the religion you so despise, the Catholic Church? How does that make you feel? It must make you sick to your stomach to know that you follow a tradition created by the Catholic Church.

RobertPate · Oct 7, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
Yes, but you seem to have rejected everything contained in the Gospel except the doctrine of the Trinity. Or have you also come to reject that to? But assuming that you do still believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, let me ask you a question. Do you use the word "Trinity" to describe the relationship between the Father, and the Son, and the Holy spirit? If you do, are you aware of the fact that the word "Trinity" appears nowhere in the Bible? Are you aware of the fact that the word "Trinity" was created by the religion you so despise, the Catholic Church? How does that make you feel? It must make you sick to your stomach to know that you follow a tradition created by the Catholic Church.

The Bible clearly teaches a trinity, 1 John 5:7 also John 14:8-9. I always allow the Bible to dictate what I believe. You should to.

RobertPate · Oct 7, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
Please stop making strawmen arguments, Catholics do not believe that "deed of the law" are of any value. I have given you many undisputable facts about the Catholic Church, and the fact that you keep making this false accusation just means you still don't understand Catholicism.

It's fleshy because the Word became flesh. As for the gold, let me ask you this, "Isn't Jesus our Messiah?" Wasn't it because he is the Messiah, that in Matthew 2:11 the wise men presented the baby Jesus with the gift of gold? I presume that their act of reverence towards our Messiah, doesn't offend you. So, then why do you find it so offensive that Catholics engage in the same act of reverence for Jesus, our Messiah? I'd really love to see your explanation.

You call it reverence. I call it fleshy, like Hollywood.

The Gospel Verses Religion

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Blood-bought

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.

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Blood-bought

Blood-bought

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Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

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