The Gospel Plus Nothing

BNR32FAN · Oct 6, 2022

Robert Pate said:
In the Gospel Jesus has ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

Colossians 1:22 appears to give that message until you read verse 23.

“yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach

(But there’s a condition)

if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22-23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

2 Corinthians 5:18-18 doesn’t say that we can’t lose our salvation you just failed to present that part of the message. Conveniently you omitted verse 17. Verses 18 and 19 are contingent upon this condition.

“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This does not in any way shape or form indicate that if anyone WAS in Christ that they will receive salvation.

Robert Pate said:
In the Gospel we are ALREADY complete "In Christ", Colossians 2:10.

“For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:9-10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

IN HIM are the key words here. So long as we remain IN HIM we have been made complete. As I pointed out according to what Jesus said in John 15:6 not everyone will remain IN HIM.

“If anyone does not abide/remain in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Robert Pate said:
Nothing can change or undo what Jesus has ALREADY done. What Jesus has accomplished becomes ours by simple childlike faith. If you fall away after professing faith in Christ, it is because you didn't really believe in the first place. You were a counterfeit.

Actually that’s false, Jesus can surely change it. Jesus Himself specifically stated that people will believe and fall away.

“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So what you’ve stated here directly contradicts what Jesus specifically stated would happen.

RobertPate · Oct 6, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
Colossians 1:22 appears to give that message until you read verse 23.

“yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach

(But there’s a condition)

if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22-23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

2 Corinthians 5:18-18 doesn’t say that we can’t lose our salvation you just failed to present that part of the message. Conveniently you omitted verse 17. Verses 18 and 19 are contingent upon this condition.

“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This does not in any way shape or form indicate that if anyone WAS in Christ that they will receive salvation.

“For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:9-10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

IN HIM are the key words here. So long as we remain IN HIM we have been made complete. As I pointed out according to what Jesus said in John 15:6 not everyone will remain IN HIM.

“If anyone does not abide/remain in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Actually that’s false, Jesus can surely change it. Jesus Himself specifically stated that people will believe and fall away.

“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So what you’ve stated here directly contradicts what Jesus specifically stated would happen.

There are multitudes of counterfeit Christians. They never have and never will call on Christ to save them because they are too proud. They believe that they are saved because of their works and piety. Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. What most have found is religion. They are trusting in their religion to save them.

BNR32FAN · Oct 6, 2022

Robert Pate said:
There are multitudes of counterfeit Christians. They never have and never will call on Christ to save them because they are too proud. They believe that they are saved because of their works and piety. Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. What most have found is religion. They are trusting in their religion to save them.

Yes there are many false professors out there that doesn’t mean that everyone who falls away from Christ was never a true believer. Jesus never says that a false professor is in Him. You complete tan from the conversation about John 15:1-7 Galatians 5:4 and 2 Timothy 2:12. You wrote them off as false professors then when I pointed out that John 15 was spoken only to Christ’s 11 faithful apostles and 2 Timothy is a personal letter from Paul to Timothy you shrank away from that discussion because you can’t explain how these messages can pertain to undoubtedly known born again Christians without contradicting your precious doctrines. We your doctrines were invented in the 16th century and have been rejected and refuted by every apostolic church that exists. Sorry bud but you’ve been misinformed.

BNR32FAN · Oct 6, 2022

Robert Pate said:
There are multitudes of counterfeit Christians. They never have and never will call on Christ to save them because they are too proud. They believe that they are saved because of their works and piety. Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. What most have found is religion. They are trusting in their religion to save them.

“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

RobertPate · Oct 6, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
Yes there are many false professors out there that doesn’t mean that everyone who falls away from Christ was never a true believer. Jesus never says that a false professor is in Him. You complete tan from the conversation about John 15:1-7 Galatians 5:4 and 2 Timothy 2:12. You wrote them off as false professors then when I pointed out that John 15 was spoken only to Christ’s 11 faithful apostles and 2 Timothy is a personal letter from Paul to Timothy you shrank away from that discussion because you can’t explain how these messages can pertain to undoubtedly known born again Christians without contradicting your precious doctrines. We your doctrines were invented in the 16th century and have been rejected and refuted by every apostolic church that exists. Sorry bud but you’ve been misinformed.

Once saved, always saved. What kind of a savior do you have that unborns people that have come to him to be saved by him. To believe such a thing is to believe that God is vindictive and unjust. Nothing can separate us from Jesus Christ, Romans 8:35-39.

Der Alte · Oct 6, 2022

Robert Pate said:
Once saved, always saved. What kind of a savior do you have that unborns people that have come to him to be saved by him. To believe such a thing is to believe tod is vindictive and unjust. Nothing can separate us from Jesus Christ, Romans 8:35-39.

Jeremiah 13:11
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:13-14
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Please show us where God, Himself, says that those who He destroyed Jer 7:23 God will save them?

====
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus does NOT say that everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus says, "NOT everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." When Jesus says "never" He means "never," not someday by and by.

BNR32FAN · Oct 6, 2022

Robert Pate said:
Once saved, always saved. What kind of a savior do you have that unborns people that have come to him to be saved by him. To believe such a thing is to believe that God is vindictive and unjust. Nothing can separate us from Jesus Christ, Romans 8:35-39.

I can see this is a waste of time. I explain how your interpretation of every verse you provide is incorrect and you ignore every verse I provide without any explanation whatsoever. Once saved always saved is never once written in the Bible. Nobody in the Bible ever used that term or anyone before the 16th century for that matter. So just because you say “once saved always saved” proves diddly. And Paul didn’t say nothing can separate us from Christ. He said nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ.

“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:38-39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

As I already pointed out The Father can separate us from Christ.

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And again as I already pointed out we can separate ourselves from Christ.

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And again

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You do realize that all these verses are in the Bible right? They are the word of God not my words. Ignoring them is just a sign that you refuse to accept the truth of God’s word.

RobertPate · Oct 6, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
I can see this is a waste of time. I explain how your interpretation of every verse you provide is incorrect and you ignore every verse I provide without any explanation whatsoever. Once saved always saved is never once written in the Bible. Nobody in the Bible ever used that term or anyone before the 16th century for that matter. So just because you say “once saved always saved” proves diddly. And Paul didn’t say nothing can separate us from Christ. He said nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ.

“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:38-39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

As I already pointed out The Father can separate us from Christ.

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And again as I already pointed out we can separate ourselves from Christ.

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And again

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You do realize that all these verses are in the Bible right? They are the word of God not my words. Ignoring them is just a sign that you refuse to accept the truth of God’s word.

What is it that you think a Christian can do that would make God withdraw his Spirit from him?

Der Alte · Oct 6, 2022

Robert Pate said:
What is it that you think a Christian can do that would make God withdraw his Spirit from him?

Hebrews 10:26-31
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
They claim that vs.
(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Some folks dismiss this passage claiming it only refers to people who might have heard the gospel but were really not Christians. "Because if they were 'real' Christians they could not fall away."
See, vs. 26 "after that we have received the knowledge of the truth," Some folks will argue "If they fall away, they were not ''real Christians' they only received the knowledge of the truth."
But notice vs. 29, "how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:" This passage mentions a fate worse than "dying without mercy."
And this "sorer punishment" was for those "[Who] hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
Not semi-Christians but those who "were sanctified by the blood of the covenant." who have trodden underfoot the son of God and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. I don't think one can get any more Christian than that.

BNR32FAN · Oct 7, 2022

Robert Pate said:
What is it that you think a Christian can do that would make God withdraw his Spirit from him?

As I’ve said several times in this thread we never lose the Holy Spirit until we’re either dead or Judgement Day. However Christ can decide to deny us before The Father on Judgement Day for numerous reasons. If we turn to unbelief, if we denounce Christ, if we turn to works for the purpose of earning salvation, if we ignore Christ’s teachings, if we don’t have love for God, if we don’t have love for others, if we begin worshipping other gods. There’s a long list of things that will result in our being denied on Judgement Day if we do these things and we don’t repent before it’s too late.

BNR32FAN · Oct 7, 2022

Der Alte said:
Hebrews 10:26-31
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
They claim that vs.
(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Some folks dismiss this passage claiming it only refers to people who might have heard the gospel but were really not Christians. "Because if they were 'real' Christians they could not fall away."
See, vs. 26 "after that we have received the knowledge of the truth," Some folks will argue "If they fall away, they were not ''real Christians' they only received the knowledge of the truth."
But notice vs. 29, "how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:" This passage mentions a fate worse than "dying without mercy."
And this "sorer punishment" was for those "[Who] hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
Not semi-Christians but those who "were sanctified by the blood of the covenant." who have trodden underfoot the son of God and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. I don't think one can get any more Christian than that.

Amen then there’s also Hebrews 6:4-6 which specifically mentions them partaking in the Holy Spirit which only true Christians can receive the Holy Spirit.

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

RobertPate · Oct 7, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
As I’ve said several times in this thread we never lose the Holy Spirit until we’re either dead or Judgement Day. However Christ can decide to deny us before The Father on Judgement Day for numerous reasons. If we turn to unbelief, if we denounce Christ, if we turn to works for the purpose of earning salvation, if we ignore Christ’s teachings, if we don’t have love for God, if we don’t have love for others, if we begin worshipping other gods. There’s a long list of things that will result in our being denied on Judgement Day if we do these things and we don’t repent before it’s too late.

Christians that have heard the Gospel and believe it will not do those things. It is not the work of the Holy Spirit to lead one into sin. "For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has ordained that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10.

RobertPate · Oct 7, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
Amen then there’s also Hebrews 6:4-6 which specifically mentions them partaking in the Holy Spirit which only true Christians can receive the Holy Spirit.

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

It says that it is impossible. That means it is never going to happen.

BNR32FAN · Oct 7, 2022

Robert Pate said:
Christians that have heard the Gospel and believe it will not do those things. It is not the work of the Holy Spirit to lead one into sin. "For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has ordained that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10.

You read one verse and get tunnel vision and completely forget about everything else. I know for a fact that I’ve quoted Ephesians 4:30 to you just recently. Did you forget about that verse?

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:30‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Holy Spirit guides us by urging us to do God’s will He doesn’t force us to do anything. It’s up to us whether we decide to cooperate with the Him or not. And that passage says that we “should walk in them” not that we will walk in them. If your interpretation of that verse was correct then no Christian would ever sin.

BNR32FAN · Oct 7, 2022

Robert Pate said:
It says that it is impossible. That means it is never going to happen.

It’s impossible to renew them to repentance. Do you know what repentance is?

Saint Steven · Oct 7, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
... if we ignore Christ’s teachings...

How are you doing on your list?

Matthew 10:7-8 NIV
As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

John 14:12 NIV
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

BNR32FAN · Oct 7, 2022

Saint Steven said:
How are you doing on your list?

Matthew 10:7-8 NIV
As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

John 14:12 NIV
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

As far as I’m concerned I was done with my list. I had no intention of listing everything just a few examples right off the top of my head. If your asking if I’ve been going around performing miracles the answer is no, I haven’t been able to heal anyone despite my efforts.

RobertPate · Oct 7, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
It’s impossible to renew them to repentance. Do you know what repentance is?

Impossible means that it is never going to happen. You can't renew something that is never going to happen.

P1LGR1M · Oct 7, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
Yes they mean the same thing just two different versions of the same Greek word.

There is a difference between belief and faith. Same word, differing contexts.

John 9:18
But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.

Do the Jews not have faith that the man had been blind? Does this mean they had no faith in anything?

John 12:38-40
King James Version

38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Is the faith of the people in view? Or simply they did not believe what they were told? If they believed what they were told, does this mean they have faith?

James 2:18-19
King James Version

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

How do the devils that elieve there is One God have faith?

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Oct 7, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
Yet Paul wrote to Timothy in a personal letter If WE deny Christ He will deny US. And Christ said to His faithful 11 apostles “abide in Me” “unless you abide in Me” anyone who doesn’t abide in Me” and “IF you abide in Me” in John 15. All of these are indications that born again Christians are capable of falling away.

Beside the numerous statements of Paul making it clear that Christians do not fall away, and the statements of Christ that make it clear Christians cannot fall away, the next problem you have is that there aren't any Christians in John 15.

The disciples are unregenerate men that not only fail to abide in Christ after they are taught to abide, Peter goes so far to den he knows Christ.

So does Christ deny Peter?

Your proof texts fail. You say if someone denies Christ Christ will deny that person. Peter denied Christ yet Christ did not deny Peter.

The doctrine of the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvtion teachers) cannot deny the Word of God:

Hebrews 10:14
King James Version

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

If you read Hebrews 10 you will see that vv.1-18 is speaking of Remission of Sins. It contrasts the fact that the Law had a shadow of the good things to come (namely the Promises of God when He establishes the New Covenant) but could not take away sins (Hebrews 10:1-4).

The Offering of Christ not only takes away the sins of the worshiper (the comer thereunto) but does so on an eternal basis (meaning it is a done deal in God's perspective).

We have been made complete in regards to remission of sins forever.

So how is it that those sanctificed by His offering, His death—can be forgiven forever and then not forgiven?

Either Scripture is in error or you are. I'm going to stick with Scripture, because as I said, there are numerous statements that make it clear believers cannot fall away, or, as you suggest, walk away. That is the purpose of a shepherd, by the way:

John 10:15-16
King James Version

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

If you do not believe the Good Shepherd will go after His sheep, what exactly do you believe? It sounds like you believe, and it sounds like you have faith, but it doesn't sound like you have that much faith in Christ.

Deuteronomy 31:6
King James Version

6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the Lord thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

If you fall away, do you think the Lord is just going to say, "What a pity, that sheep just took off. I had such high hopes for him," and you are left to wander off?

Because I know I cannot change the hearts of men, I will ask you, who is the one that is completing your faith? Are you the one who finish the work He has begun in you? Are you working out your own salvation with fear and trembling?

God bless.

The Gospel Plus Nothing

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