Why people reject the reality of Hell

Der Alte · Aug 16, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
So, you'd say I'm going there for proving it does not exist? Actually, I agree with you, for God told us not to add to or take away from, His word. Someone played around with His word, however, inserting "hell" - a word (and concept!) not found in Latin, Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew. God did not mention it in His creation, His law, His warnings, or even His accounts of those He killed. It was always just death.

False! I don't know about "Latin" but in Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew there were and are words which identify a place of fiery, eternal punishment. The Jews referred to this place as both "sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" written as "hades" and "Gehenna" in the 225 BC Septuagint/LXX and the New Testament.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the eleven [11] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

DavidPT · Aug 16, 2022

Der Alte said:
If God can grant the righteous eternal life in paradise He can certainly grant the unrighteous a conscious existence somewhere else.

That's somewhat of a reasonable argument, I guess. I can't say I fully agree though.

Unlike some of these other posters around here, I do indeed believe hell is eternal and that the fire is literal fire that can be felt and experienced, thus torturous beyond belief, except I'm not convinced that man will experience ECT, but I'm convinced that whoever Revelation 20:10 is including, where I'm not seeing any mention of mortal men in that verse though, they undeniably will experience ECT.

As to the parable you brought up, do you perhaps believe that when the wicked die, they descend to hell bodily or something? After all, surely, souls wouldn't have tongues and fingers, etc, but bodies would.

Saint Steven · Aug 16, 2022

DavidPT said:
I do indeed believe hell is eternal and that the fire is literal fire that can be felt and experienced, thus torturous beyond belief

Wow. Who created such a sadistic and horrible torture?

DavidPT · Aug 16, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Wow. Who created such a sadistic and horrible torture?

God did, apparently, otherwise the Bible lied to us when it said those meant in Revelation 20:10, they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. But that is never said of the judgment involving Revelation 20:11-15, that when they are cast into the lake of fire, they too shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. I calls it the 2nd death, in their case.

Der Alte · Aug 16, 2022

DavidPT said:
That's somewhat of a reasonable argument, I guess. I can't say I fully agree though.
* * *
As to the parable you brought up, do you perhaps believe that when the wicked die, they descend to hell bodily or something? After all, surely, souls wouldn't have tongues and fingers, etc, but bodies would.

Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable. It may be some kind figure of speech but not a parable.
Luke 16:19-31 is not in the proper format of a parable. A parable is used to explain something unknown/not understood by comparing it to something known/understood. For example,

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

There is no "X is like unto to Y" in Luke 16:19-31
This story is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The word "parable" occurs 32 times in the NT. Jesus identifies parables 5 times.
Matthew 13:18, Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Matthew 4:13, Matthew 13:28.
17 times the writer identifies the parables.
Luk 16:19-31 might be some other figure of speech, but it is not a parable.
…..All of the unquestioned parables are anonymous; a certain widow, a certain man, a certain landowner etc. The story of Lazarus and the rich man mentions three specific actual persons by name; Lazarus, Abraham and Moses.
If Abraham was not in the place Jesus named and did not speak the words Jesus quoted then Jesus lied. Would Jesus use a false statement to make a point?
What most folks don’t know about the rich man, he violated a specific commandment.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8
7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.

All 5 of the ECF who quoted Luk 16:19-31considered it to be factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet,
enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the hay. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

Lazarus Short · Aug 16, 2022

Der Alte said:
False! I don't know about "Latin" but in Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew there were and are words which identify a place of fiery, eternal punishment. The Jews referred to this place as both "sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" written as "hades" and "Gehenna" in the 225 BC Septuagint/LXX and the New Testament.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]
Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the eleven [11] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

I will follow the advise of both Paul and Peter and ignore your "irrefutable" Jewish sources, for they fall into the realm of "fables." If I disagree with fellow Christians about "hell," tell me why I should give heed to modern or ancient Jews? I reject "hell" - the word, the concept, the supposed place. I know some of what is in the Talmud, enough to know I don't want to know more, and knowing what I know, I fear for you.

Der Alte · Aug 16, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
I will follow the advise of both Paul and Peter and ignore your "irrefutable" Jewish sources, for they fall into the realm of "fables." If I disagree with fellow Christians about "hell," tell me why I should give heed to modern or ancient Jews? I reject "hell" - the word, the concept, the supposed place. I know some of what is in the Talmud, enough to know I don't want to know more, and knowing what I know, I fear for you.

As always your biased opinion is not relevant. Say what you will, rage and roar. Absolutely nothing you say can change the FACT that in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which they called both "sheol" and "Ge Hinnom," written in the 225 BC Septuagint/LXX and the New Testament as "Hades" and "Gehenna." Jesus had no problem saying that "Hades" was a place of fiery torment from which there was no escape.

Lazarus Short · Aug 16, 2022

You have your own biases - we all do. As for me, I do not "rage and roar." Why should I? You are not answerable to me, nor I to you.

JulieB67 · Aug 16, 2022

Der Alte said:
Find a vs., 2 or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, says that a soul was or will be killed in hell?

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Apparently you see this as meaning life instead of death. What word would you insert here instead of death since you don't believe it actually means death?

And for me, common sense alone tells us that if there is a second death there must be a first. Which would mean the body. The second would have to be the soul. Do we really need Christ to spell it out for us?? This verse itself goes along with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28.

And all throughout the bible we are told the wages of sin is death, period. It is eternal- eternal and everlasting destruction. There is no coming back from that. A fire consumes. This fire is unquenchable because it can't be put it out by human hands. But it will consume and what does a fire do eventually after nothing is left? It's finished. There's nothing left but ashes. In the end the former things will pass away.

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Receivedgrace · Aug 17, 2022

JulieB67 said:
Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Apparently you see this as meaning life instead of death. What word would you insert here instead of death since you don't believe it actually means death?

And for me, common sense alone tells us that if there is a second death there must be a first. Which would mean the body. The second would have to be the soul. Do we really need Christ to spell it out for us?? This verse itself goes along with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28.

And all throughout the bible we are told the wages of sin is death, period. It is eternal- eternal and everlasting destruction. There is no coming back from that. A fire consumes. This fire is unquenchable because it can't be put it out by human hands. But it will consume and what does a fire do eventually after nothing is left? It's finished. There's nothing left but ashes. In the end the former things will pass away.

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Death did not exist until sin entered the world at the fall. When all of creation is glorified death will no longer exist. No death in the new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem.

JulieB67 · Aug 17, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
When all of creation is glorified death will no longer exist. No death in the new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem.

Yes, that's my point. All of the former will be passed away. After the second death, that's it. But the second death is just that, it's death. Not life. The Greek is pretty specific in that aspect.

Receivedgrace · Aug 17, 2022

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Everything will be utterly destroyed that has been contaminated by sin. Everything will be made new just like it was before sin entered into the world. Sin and death will exist no more except in the lake of fire along with all who would not receive Christ before they died.

JulieB67 · Aug 17, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
Sin and death will exist no more except in the lake of fire along with all who would not receive Christ before they died.

Again, it's call the second "death" for a reason. As I asked someone else, what word would you insert in place of death since apparently you don't believe it does mean death?

And as I've brought up in other threads at times, do you really believe for example someone like Anne Frank who was Jewish and died a horrible and senseless death at such a young age, do you believe she will burn for all eternity if she was not a Christian before her death? Is that what God has in store for her? Just curious about your opinion on that.

Receivedgrace · Aug 17, 2022

JulieB67 said:
Again, it's call the second "death" for a reason. As I asked someone else, what word would you insert in place of death since apparently you don't believe it does mean death?

And as I've brought up in other threads at times, do you really believe for example someone like Anne Frank who was Jewish and died a horrible and senseless death at such a young age, do you believe she will burn for all eternity if she was not a Christian before her death? Is that what God has in store for her? Just curious about your opinion on that.

According to what Jesus said and taught the only answer is that if she or anyone else dies without the Son they do not have the Father.
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Receivedgrace · Aug 17, 2022

OT Jews were saved by belief just as men today must be saved by belief. OT Jews by believing that God would send the Messiah and today that He came as promised.
Grace which is the only way to be saved is always received by believing what God has said.

JulieB67 · Aug 17, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
According to what Jesus said and taught the only answer is that if she or anyone else dies without the Son they do not have the Father.
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

You didn't answer my question about the second death. When Christ states this is the second death, you don't believe that to be death? What would you call it?

And remember verses like this, this is our Father speaking,

Ezekiel 18:23 "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

He doesn't even want anyone to die or perish but people think he wants to torture someone for all eternity, unbelievable.

Receivedgrace · Aug 17, 2022

JulieB67 said:
You didn't answer my question about the second death. When Christ states this is the second death, you don't believe that to be death? What would you call it?

And remember verses like this, this is our Father speaking,

Ezekiel 18:23 "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

He doesn't even want anyone to die or perish but people think he wants to torture someone for all eternity, unbelievable.

That God saves any is unbelievable. God's perfect righteousness demands that those who reject His plan for redemption be cast into everlasting condemnation.
Second death is after final judgment.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Der Alte · Aug 17, 2022

JulieB67 said:
Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Apparently you see this as meaning life instead of death. What word would you insert here instead of death since you don't believe it actually means death?
And for me, common sense alone tells us that if there is a second death there must be a first. Which would mean the body. The second would have to be the soul. Do we really need Christ to spell it out for us?? This verse itself goes along with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28.
And all throughout the bible we are told the wages of sin is death, period. It is eternal- eternal and everlasting destruction. There is no coming back from that. A fire consumes. This fire is unquenchable because it can't be put it out by human hands. But it will consume and what does a fire do eventually after nothing is left? It's finished. There's nothing left but ashes. In the end the former things will pass away.
Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

I asked for one vs. 2 or more would be better where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, says that one soul has been or will be killed in hell or anywhere else. Note I specifically said "a soul." That is what Jesus said, "fear him who is able to destroy the soul in hell." You have made an assumption. While the lake of fire is called the "second death" twice. Not one vs. says that anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF and they/it dies.
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 'Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and ho1y is the one who has part in the first resurrection! Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests” of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.2

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who was a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living, sentient, beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence. There is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

My name for these two sentient beings is, “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Others can feel free to call them whatever they want. The 2 beings are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….Additional verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death.” In vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous; [the]fearful, [the] unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still called] the second death.”
If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

The last chapter of the Bible, Rev. 22:11., 10 more vss. No salvation, no destruction, no death, only “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still.”

Der Alte · Aug 17, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
You have your own biases - we all do. As for me, I do not "rage and roar." Why should I? You are not answerable to me, nor I to you.

That may well be, but I can support my arguments with scripture which are not out-of-context and arguments from lexical, grammatical and historical sources. And I can't remember when I ever based an argument on what some "scholar" said. I may have 3+ decades ago when I first joined this forum.

JulieB67 · Aug 17, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
Second death is after final judgment.

Do you believe this to be an actual death? If not, why is it called the second death by Christ? Or do you think it means life in the lake of fire?

Why people reject the reality of Hell

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