How Christians should respond to new space images

Bob8102

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Just this morning, on MSN, I saw an article that was about how Christians should feel about new images of space, such as those from the James Webb telescope. The article includes an interview with a woman scientist who apparently is also a Christian. She seems to believe in the Big Bang and old ages of the universe. A brief reference is made in the article about some pastors 'forcing their congregations to accept young universe notions.' While I respectfully disagree with this lady's loyalty to standard cosmology, she at least referred to the universe and its wonders as God's creation. I see no reason for anyone to have to maintain loyalty to the Big Bang and old universe assertions of the mainstream scientific community. I have written a treatise called "Big Bang Busted." It is available on my website, COSMINISTRY - Cosmos Ministry

If you go to this website, please do not click on the "discussion" link because I am not maintaining this website and the discussion forum link is now inoperable. But please do go to the article entitled "Big Bang Busted." This website is best viewed on a desktop PC or laptop, not on a mobile device.

To those Christians who want to reconcile the assertions of the mainstream scientific community about origins and natural history with the Bible, I say the two views are distinctly different and cannot be matched up. To these Christians, I say, what? Did God lack the power to create the cosmos in six days, about 6,000 years ago, or did He choose NOT to do so? The Bible, if you don't want to play debilitating interpretation games with it, straightforwardly asserts that the infinite God has the power to have created the universe in six, calendar days. And He used that power, to His glory.

Here is a link to the MSN article I read this morning:

How should Christians feel about the new images of outer space?
 
B
byword
When I see pictures of space, I feel inspired, creative, sometimes relaxed, contemplative. Mostly, I feel excited just seeing those really cool pics!

(Sorry, I liked the question, so I just answered it and didn’t get drawn into the actual topic by the catchy title…)
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trophy33

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Most Christians world wide really do not care about Young Earth Creationism that originated in the USA in the Seventh Day Adventist church, from the visions of Ellen G. White.

So they do not need to "respond" to the new images in any specific way and they do not need anybody to tell them how they should "feel" about it.

 
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eleos1954

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Just this morning, on MSN, I saw an article that was about how Christians should feel about new images of space, such as those from the James Webb telescope. The article includes an interview with a woman scientist who apparently is also a Christian. She seems to believe in the Big Bang and old ages of the universe. A brief reference is made in the article about some pastors 'forcing their congregations to accept young universe notions.' While I respectfully disagree with this lady's loyalty to standard cosmology, she at least referred to the universe and its wonders as God's creation. I see no reason for anyone to have to maintain loyalty to the Big Bang and old universe assertions of the mainstream scientific community. I have written a treatise called "Big Bang Busted." It is available on my website, COSMINISTRY - Cosmos Ministry

If you go to this website, please do not click on the "discussion" link because I am not maintaining this website and the discussion forum link is now inoperable. But please do go to the article entitled "Big Bang Busted." This website is best viewed on a desktop PC or laptop, not on a mobile device.

To those Christians who want to reconcile the assertions of the mainstream scientific community about origins and natural history with the Bible, I say the two views are distinctly different and cannot be matched up. To these Christians, I say, what? Did God lack the power to create the cosmos in six days, about 6,000 years ago, or did He choose NOT to do so? The Bible, if you don't want to play debilitating interpretation games with it, straightforwardly asserts that the infinite God has the power to have created the universe in six, calendar days. And He used that power, to His glory.

Here is a link to the MSN article I read this morning:

How should Christians feel about the new images of outer space?

It is marvelous to see the beauty and complexity of the cosmos .... the more that is discovered the likely hood of "happen chance" shows how far fetched it is.

We respond by standing in awe and giving glory to the Lord of His power ... that really goes beyond our comprehension.

I say the two views are distinctly different and cannot be matched up

Agree ... the two are mutually exclusive.
 
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d taylor

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Do you use a microwave oven?

You know how many times i have heard the you use, etc, etc, etc.. reason for a case to state, that because people have invented working contraptions. Then you must believe everything science says, but no i try not to use a microwave.
 
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trophy33

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You know how many times i have heard the you use, etc, etc, etc.. reason for a case to state, that because people have invented working contraptions. Then you must believe everything science says, but no i try not to use a microwave.
Your life must be strange and very isolated... thinking that so many people (including Christians) try to lie to you about what they do in their jobs.
 
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David's Harp

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Just this morning, on MSN, I saw an article that was about how Christians should feel about new images of space, such as those from the James Webb telescope. The article includes an interview with a woman scientist who apparently is also a Christian. She seems to believe in the Big Bang and old ages of the universe. A brief reference is made in the article about some pastors 'forcing their congregations to accept young universe notions.' While I respectfully disagree with this lady's loyalty to standard cosmology, she at least referred to the universe and its wonders as God's creation. I see no reason for anyone to have to maintain loyalty to the Big Bang and old universe assertions of the mainstream scientific community. I have written a treatise called "Big Bang Busted." It is available on my website, COSMINISTRY - Cosmos Ministry

If you go to this website, please do not click on the "discussion" link because I am not maintaining this website and the discussion forum link is now inoperable. But please do go to the article entitled "Big Bang Busted." This website is best viewed on a desktop PC or laptop, not on a mobile device.

To those Christians who want to reconcile the assertions of the mainstream scientific community about origins and natural history with the Bible, I say the two views are distinctly different and cannot be matched up. To these Christians, I say, what? Did God lack the power to create the cosmos in six days, about 6,000 years ago, or did He choose NOT to do so? The Bible, if you don't want to play debilitating interpretation games with it, straightforwardly asserts that the infinite God has the power to have created the universe in six, calendar days. And He used that power, to His glory.

Here is a link to the MSN article I read this morning:

How should Christians feel about the new images of outer space?
Hi Bob, I haven't managed to check out all the stuff on your site yet, but I just wanted to say thanks and show a bit of support, as it seems we who question the mainstream science backed narrative are in the minority. That's not to say I'm anti-science; rather, I question some science.

When it comes to the age of the earth I'm open to the idea of it being either young or old, though perhaps not quite as science would dictate. I don't see how believing one or the other should detract in our walk with Jesus. Having said that, I do tend towards a young earth because I feel I can give more Glory to God through that model. The evolutionary model never did sit right with me, even before I became a Christian.

With regards to that news article headline, "How should we feel..." I've seen this device used a lot in other articles, as though to question your existing beliefs and then accept the new information presented. The headline does have a big influence on how we read an article.

I don't need advanced images of God's creation 'light years' away. I can see His Majesty in the sky and indeed all of His Creation, right here, right now, at any time of the day. That's how I feel.

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. (Psalm 19:1)
 
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David's Harp

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Most Christians world wide really do not care about Young Earth Creationism that originated in the USA in the Seventh Day Adventist church, from the visions of Ellen G. White.

So they do not need to "respond" to the new images in any specific way and they do not need anybody to tell them how they should "feel" about it.


The narrator says near the end of the video "Long before Darwin, Christians were interpreting Genesis in a plethora of different ways. The age of the earth was not a huge issue until very recently".
So perhaps we can admit that we don't need science to dictate our view upon God's Creation.
 
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trophy33

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The narrator says near the end of the video "Long before Darwin, Christians were interpreting Genesis in a plethora of different ways. The age of the earth was not a huge issue until very recently".
So perhaps we can admit that we don't need science to dictate our view upon God's Creation.
We do not need to fight against science. Before science, there have been a plethora of different views of Genesis.

But there is no need to go against evidence, when we already have it and to choose a view that is obviously contradictory to what is already known.
 
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Skye1300

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It's a grand delusion. I can't figure out if it's the ones peddling the delusion that's behind it or some other force is behind it and the science believers are just as deluded and the ones they are deluding.
Man has no heaven or hell to put you in so not believing in a Big Bang that man tells you to believe won't send you to hell, but who knows where believing in a Big Bang will lead you as far as God is concerned. I'll take my chance believing the Word of God over what man says. Humans can't even cure COVID so what do they think they know about the age of the universe?
 
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David's Harp

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We do not need to fight against science. Before science, there have been a plethora of different views of Genesis.

But there is no need to go against evidence, when we already have it and to choose a view that is obviously contradictory to what is already known.

As I said before, I'm not anti-science. My main problem with it is that it has been proven wrong, so I have difficulty placing my faith in it. Indeed, is that not what proper science is: trying to gather evidence and proving or disproving the current thesis. Sadly, with a lot of current science, I don't see much, if any, of the disproving going on.

And when it comes to the realms of what is able to be tangibly measured - in the context of space - what real evidence do we have above theories involving mathematics?
 
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d taylor

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Your life must be strange and very isolated... thinking that so many people (including Christians) try to lie to you about what they do in their jobs.

-​

I am not the one or ones who is letting science dictate my Bible beliefs in areas of creation.
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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Just this morning, on MSN, I saw an article that was about how Christians should feel about new images of space, such as those from the James Webb telescope. The article includes an interview with a woman scientist who apparently is also a Christian. She seems to believe in the Big Bang and old ages of the universe.

For the sake of others reading this thread, the "woman scientist" is Deborah B. Haarsma, currently serving as president of the BioLogos Foundation and formerly as professor and chair in the Department of Physics and Astronomy at Calvin College (Grand Rapids, Michigan). She wrote Origins: Christian Perspectives on Creation, Evolution, and Intelligent Design, rev. ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Faith Alive Christian Resources, 2011) with her husband and fellow physicist, Loren D. Haarsma. The book introduces the different Christian perspectives on the question of origins, from young-earth groups to old-earth groups. Although the original edition had a more narrow focus—it was called Origins: A Reformed Look at Creation, Design, and Evolution (2007)—this revised edition expands that focus to include all of Christianity.

Yes, Haarsma is a Christian. She belongs to the same theological tradition that I do (Reformed), which is largely a conservative faith community. Although the young-earth view seems to be the majority opinion in Reformed (and Presbyterian) circles, there is a growing number of those whose commitment to Scripture and our doctrinal confessions (e.g., Belgic Confession of Faith) compels us to accept as trustworthy the authoritative, inerrant, sufficient, and perspicuous testimony of nature, [1] whose author is the same as Scripture—people like Arnold Sikkema, Tony Jelsma, Jitse van der Meer, Ard A. Louis, Gijsbert van den Brink, and others. Haarsma argues for the same thing, particularly in chapters one ("God's Word and God's World") and four ("God's Word and God's World In Conflict?"). She argues that there is not (and cannot be) any inherent conflict between God's two revelations, but that any such conflicts only arise from human interpretations thereof.

And that should not be a controversial opinion. It is shared by theologians from a range of Christian traditions throughout history. For example, Douglas Groothuis said something similar:

Truth ... is systematic and unified. Truth is one, as God is one. All truths cohere with one another as expressions of God's harmonious objective reality—of his being, his knowledge and his creation. Something cannot be true in religion and false in science (or vice versa), or true in philosophy but false in theology (or vice versa). There is only one world, God's world; it is a uni-verse, not a multi-verse. [2]​


A brief reference is made in the article about some pastors "forcing their congregations to accept young-universe notions." While I respectfully disagree with this lady's loyalty to standard cosmology, she at least referred to the universe and its wonders as God's creation. I see no reason for anyone to have to maintain loyalty to the Big Bang and old-universe assertions of the mainstream scientific community.

I suspect that she would take issue with your characterization of it as "loyalty" to standard Big Bang cosmology. As she has made clear in her own writings—which anyone can verify so no one should bear false witness—her loyalty is to the triune God of Christian orthodoxy, whom she regards as every bit the one and same author. The theological tradition to which she and I belong affirms the union of natural and special revelation as constituted by "God's one grand scheme of covenant revelation of himself to man. The two forms of revelation must therefore be seen as presupposing and supplementing one another." [3] And, as revelational of God, the testimony of nature is authoritative and infallible.

That, my friend, is the reason to take seriously the conclusions of scientific analysis. (And taking something seriously does not mean accepting it uncritically. The best science is produced from the fires of critical scrutiny.) God is the one author of Scripture and nature both; what he says in one place will not contradict what he says in another—and he quite clearly said that the universe is at least 280,000 years old (UGC 10214, a.k.a. Tadpole Galaxy). [4] This is a lesson that the church chose to learn the hard way with Galileo, and I see no good reason for learning that lesson the hard way a second time.

"It must be remembered," Galileo said in a letter to Christina of Lorraine, Dowager Grand-Duchess of Tuscany, "that there are very few men capable of understanding both the sacred Scriptures and science, and that there are many with a superficial knowledge of the Scriptures and no knowledge of science who would [gladly] arrogate to themselves the power of decreeing upon all questions of nature."

For anyone interested in the history of dating the age of the earth, I would highly recommend Martin Gorst, Measuring Eternity: The Search for the Beginning of Time (New York: Broadway Books, 2002). As a writer and documentary filmmaker, Gorst vividly illustrates in this captivating and character-driven narrative the fascinating, centuries-long journey by religious figures, philosophers, astronomers, geologists, physicists, and mathematicians to discover the answer to a fundamental question at the intersection of science and religion: When did the universe begin?


To those Christians who want to reconcile the assertions of the mainstream scientific community about origins and natural history with the Bible, I say the two views are distinctly different and cannot be matched up.

If God is the one and same author of both nature and Scripture, then they are complimentary and will easily match up.


To these Christians, I ask, "Did God lack the power to create the cosmos in six days about 6,000 years ago, ...?" The Bible (if you don't want to play debilitating interpretation games with it) straight-forwardly asserts that the infinite God has the power to have created the universe in six calendar days. And he used that power to his glory.

That is an irrelevant question. Determining whether God COULD do X does not tell us whether he DID do X:

"But," they say, "to God nothing is difficult!" Who does not know it? Who is not aware that things [which are] impossible with the world are possible with God? ... Certainly nothing is difficult for God. But if, in our assumptions, we so rashly make use of this judgment, we shall be able to invent any manner of thing concerning God as that he has done it on the ground that he was able to do it. But we must not, on the ground that he can do all things, for that reason believe that he has done even what he has not done. Rather, we must inquire whether he has done it.​

Is God powerful enough to have created the world in six days a few thousand years ago? Yes. In fact, he is powerful enough to have created the world instantly last Thursday. As Tertullian observed, it's not about whether God has the power to do it but about whether he did do it. He's powerful enough to have done it, but did he? It appears that he did not.


How should Christians feel about the new images of outer space?

Inspired, I believe. "The heavens declare the glory of God; the sky displays his handiwork. Day after day it speaks out; night after night it reveals his greatness. There is no actual speech or word, nor is its voice literally heard. Yet its voice echoes throughout the earth; its words carry to the distant horizon" (Ps 19:1-4).

---​

[1] Cornelius Van Til, "Nature and Scripture," The Infallible Word: A Symposium, by the members of the faculty of Westminster Theological Seminary (Philadelphia: Presbyterian Guardian Publishing, 1946), pp. 255-293. See also Camden Bucey, Jared Oliphint, and K. Scott Oliphint, hosts, "Nature and Scripture," Ep. 240, Christ the Center (podcast), August 3, 2012. (Accessed August 13, 2022.)

[2] Douglas Groothuis, Truth Decay: Defending Christianity Against the Challenges of Postmodernism (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000), 79.

[3] Van Til, "Nature and Scripture." (It must be kept in mind "that revelation in nature was never meant to function by itself. It was from the beginning insufficient without its supernatural concomitant.")

[4] David MacMillan, "Path Across the Stars," Medium.com, May 17, 2019.
 
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Bob8102

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Watch the video, please, to understand that the issue is a bit more complicated.

I watched the video. Next you are going to tell me that Jesus was an old-earth evolutionist. (And, no doubt, a Mason, as well!) Ellen G. White was not the first to say the world was created in six days. Moses said it when he wrote the book of Genesis.
 
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Bob8102

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For the sake of others reading this thread, the "woman scientist" is Deborah B. Haarsma, currently serving as president of the BioLogos Foundation and formerly as professor and chair in the Department of Physics and Astronomy at Calvin College (Grand Rapids, Michigan). She wrote Origins: Christian Perspectives on Creation, Evolution, and Intelligent Design, rev. ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Faith Alive Christian Resources, 2011) with her husband and fellow physicist, Loren D. Haarsma. The book introduces the different Christian perspectives on the question of origins, from young-earth groups to old-earth groups. Although the original edition had a more narrow focus—it was called Origins: A Reformed Look at Creation, Design, and Evolution (2007)—this revised edition expands that focus to include all of Christianity.

Yes, Haarsma is a Christian. She belongs to the same theological tradition that I do (Reformed), which is largely a conservative faith community. Although the young-earth view seems to be the majority opinion in Reformed (and Presbyterian) circles, there is a growing number of those whose commitment to Scripture and our doctrinal confessions (e.g., Belgic Confession of Faith) compels us to accept as trustworthy the authoritative, inerrant, sufficient, and perspicuous testimony of nature, [1] whose author is the same as Scripture—people like Arnold Sikkema, Tony Jelsma, Jitse van der Meer, Ard A. Louis, Gijsbert van den Brink, and others. Haarsma argues for the same thing, particularly in chapters one ("God's Word and God's World") and four ("God's Word and God's World In Conflict?"). She argues that there is not (and cannot be) any inherent conflict between God's two revelations, but that any such conflicts only arise from human interpretations thereof.

And that should not be a controversial opinion. It is shared by theologians from a range of Christian traditions throughout history. For example, Douglas Groothuis said something similar:

Truth ... is systematic and unified. Truth is one, as God is one. All truths cohere with one another as expressions of God's harmonious objective reality—of his being, his knowledge and his creation. Something cannot be true in religion and false in science (or vice versa), or true in philosophy but false in theology (or vice versa). There is only one world, God's world; it is a uni-verse, not a multi-verse. [2]​




I suspect that she would take issue with your characterization of it as "loyalty" to standard Big Bang cosmology. As she has made clear in her own writings—which anyone can verify so no one should bear false witness—her loyalty is to the triune God of Christian orthodoxy, whom she regards as every bit the one and same author. The theological tradition to which she and I belong affirms the union of natural and special revelation as constituted by "God's one grand scheme of covenant revelation of himself to man. The two forms of revelation must therefore be seen as presupposing and supplementing one another." [3] And, as revelational of God, the testimony of nature is authoritative and infallible.

That, my friend, is the reason to take seriously the conclusions of scientific analysis. (And taking something seriously does not mean accepting it uncritically. The best science is produced from the fires of critical scrutiny.) God is the one author of Scripture and nature both; what he says in one place will not contradict what he says in another—and he quite clearly said that the universe is at least 280,000 years old (UGC 10214, a.k.a. Tadpole Galaxy). [4] This is a lesson that the church chose to learn the hard way with Galileo, and I see no good reason for learning that lesson the hard way a second time.

"It must be remembered," Galileo said in a letter to Christina of Lorraine, Dowager Grand-Duchess of Tuscany, "that there are very few men capable of understanding both the sacred Scriptures and science, and that there are many with a superficial knowledge of the Scriptures and no knowledge of science who would [gladly] arrogate to themselves the power of decreeing upon all questions of nature."

For anyone interested in the history of dating the age of the earth, I would highly recommend Martin Gorst, Measuring Eternity: The Search for the Beginning of Time (New York: Broadway Books, 2002). As a writer and documentary filmmaker, Gorst vividly illustrates in this captivating and character-driven narrative the fascinating, centuries-long journey by religious figures, philosophers, astronomers, geologists, physicists, and mathematicians to discover the answer to a fundamental question at the intersection of science and religion: When did the universe begin?




If God is the one and same author of both nature and Scripture, then they are complimentary and will easily match up.




That is an irrelevant question. Determining whether God COULD do X does not tell us whether he DID do X:

"But," they say, "to God nothing is difficult!" Who does not know it? Who is not aware that things [which are] impossible with the world are possible with God? ... Certainly nothing is difficult for God. But if, in our assumptions, we so rashly make use of this judgment, we shall be able to invent any manner of thing concerning God as that he has done it on the ground that he was able to do it. But we must not, on the ground that he can do all things, for that reason believe that he has done even what he has not done. Rather, we must inquire whether he has done it.​

Is God powerful enough to have created the world in six days a few thousand years ago? Yes. In fact, he is powerful enough to have created the world instantly last Thursday. As Tertullian observed, it's not about whether God has the power to do it but about whether he did do it. He's powerful enough to have done it, but did he? It appears that he did not.




Inspired, I believe. "The heavens declare the glory of God; the sky displays his handiwork. Day after day it speaks out; night after night it reveals his greatness. There is no actual speech or word, nor is its voice literally heard. Yet its voice echoes throughout the earth; its words carry to the distant horizon" (Ps 19:1-4).

---​

[1] Cornelius Van Til, "Nature and Scripture," The Infallible Word: A Symposium, by the members of the faculty of Westminster Theological Seminary (Philadelphia: Presbyterian Guardian Publishing, 1946), pp. 255-293. See also Camden Bucey, Jared Oliphint, and K. Scott Oliphint, hosts, "Nature and Scripture," Ep. 240, Christ the Center (podcast), August 3, 2012. (Accessed August 13, 2022.)

[2] Douglas Groothuis, Truth Decay: Defending Christianity Against the Challenges of Postmodernism (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000), 79.

[3] Van Til, "Nature and Scripture." (It must be kept in mind "that revelation in nature was never meant to function by itself. It was from the beginning insufficient without its supernatural concomitant.")

[4] David MacMillan, "Path Across the Stars," Medium.com, May 17, 2019.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree.
 
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DaveISBA

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Young Earth creationism is as old as the Bible. What's new is Darwinism; The Origin of the Species was published in 1859.
Where does the Bible state that the earth is 6000 years old? It only indicates the generational time period from Adam to the present!
Gen. 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Now the earth was formless and void" but the Hebrew verb hayah. does not just denote the state of being “was” but can also describe a change from one state of being or became!
A preexisting previously destroyed earth and cities populated by life forms other than human is backed up in Jer. 4:23-28 "I looked on the earth, and behold, it was [became] formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light. I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro. I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled. I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger. For thus says the LORD, The whole land shall be a desolation, Yet I will not execute a complete destruction."
Also God told Adam and Eve to not plenish (fill up) but to replenish (refill) the earth!
 
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