Traditional Leaders Testimonies, Discovering Universal Restoration

wendykvw said:

Every post you have made so far promotes the traditional view. Are you now claiming that all will be redeemed by the victory of the cross? Or do you still support the view that only a few will be redeemed. Please clarify. Will all be restored or only a few. Thank you.

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Read my posts. I have been very clear on what I believe.
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted below, know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46 and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18.
Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek is different than koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars are competent enough to know the correct meanings of old words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer used and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.

wendykvw said:

According to the traditional view of eternal hell, God will redeem only a minority. Where is the victory of The cross? Satan wins the majority of the world, and the victory of the cross was defeated by sinful mankind and satan the deceiver.

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Why aren't you responding to my posts; addressing the points I made and answering my questions?

wendykvw said:

Thank you for clearing it up that Ellen White is not equal to scripture. I am confused, are you then stating that sabbath keeping is not required for salvation? Are you stating Sunday worshippers will not receive the mark of the beast?

As a minister I find it appalling that anyone especially a follower of Christ would deny the assurance of salvation.

With His own blood—not the blood of goats and calves—he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever. Hebrews 9:12

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So are you not going to answer any of my questions and keep deflecting? If you look this this thread I have answered your questions repeatedly and you refuse to answer mine. A discussion is a two way street, if you don’t have scripture to support the answers just say so, so we can move on. I’ll be happy to address your post once you address mine.

I would also like to add that God told the ancient fathers to warn the people of the consequences of right and wrong. Moses preached these in Deuteronomy 30:11-20 etc. Ezekiel was appointed as a watchman and the burden upon him is clear in Ezekiel 3:16-20. Solomon concludes that we should fear the Lord & keep His commandments in Ecclesiastes 12:13-14.

While all of the original preaching is under the law & before the Lord’s cross, our basic living conduct ( as in the 10 commandments, Psalms 15 etc.) is consistent. The Lord emphasizes love in keeping His commandments ( John 14:15-18) and this is entirely consistent with keeping the commandments and the fulfillment of the law ( compare Matthew 19:16-19 & Romans 13:8-10). The fleshy burdens of the law ( animal sacrifice sin offerings, circumcision etc.) were understood by the apostles as voided ( per Acts of the Apostles 15, Galatians 5 etc.) but the commandments & fear of the Lord are still in effect ( Matthew 10:28-33 etc.). Reading St. Paul’s summation of unfolding & fulfillment in the Gospel in Colossians 1 is crucial to understanding these matters and these matters are crucial to understanding Colossians 1.

The ancient Christian community clearly had the 2 ways preaching ( of life & death ) passed on to them as exemplified in the ancient Didache church manual: Didache.

SabbathBlessings said:

From one Sabbath to another means on every seventh day which is the definition of when the Sabbath is according to God. Exodus 20:10
Just like I go to church from one Sabbath to another to worship the Lord, this continues forever according to the scripture. Isaiah 66:23 just like God promised Exodus 31:13 Isaiah 56:4-5

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The Sabbath was given exclusively to the children of Israel.

Der Alte said:

The Sabbath was given exclusively to the children of Israel.

Exodus 31:16
(16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Leviticus 24:8
(8) Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.​

​

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God identifies the Sabbath as "His holy day" and it is never referred to as the holy day of the Jews or the Sabbath of the Jews. The seventh day Sabbath is part of God's holy law that He wrote with His own finger and came in a covenant of Ten. Exodus 34:28, Exodus 31:18 which was placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple which is revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19

God tells us right in the Sabbath commandment it is meant for everyone:

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

The Sabbath was part of God's perfect plan before sin Genesis 2:1-3 and will be restored when He comes for "all flesh" not just Jews. Isaiah 66:23

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27 and man was made on the sixth day Genesis 1:26 before the very first Sabbath in the presence of God 2:1-3 Genesis.

I'm not sure if you ever read this passage but the Sabbath is meant for everyone. It is a blessing that the Lord wants everyone to be part of Isaiah 58:13


Salvation for the Gentiles
Isaiah 56:1 Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

There is no Jew or Gentile if you are in Christ. Galatians 3:26-30 I could write more but its supper time- will check back in later.

Perhaps you can answer these questions...

• Please point out the commandment of God for Sunday-keeping written by God’s own finger in scripture?
• Please point out the scripture the day God deems as His holy day.
• What is the day God sanctified and blessed?
• Which are the days God deemed as working days for us and for Him?
• The day Jesus kept His whole life as our example.
• The scripture where Jesus says we don’t have to obey the commandments of God and instead should follow the teachings of man.
• They day we will be worshipping the Lord according to the Lord in the New Heaven and New Earth.

SabbathBlessings said:

There is no scripture that says everyone will be saved...

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I beg to differ.
Try these on for size, thanks.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

wendykvw said:

I asked her to clarify why she believes the scriptures teach that those who will receive the mark of the beast are those who worship and fellowship on Sunday.

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Did you get a straight answer?

I think their actual claim is that Sunday is the mark of the beast. Thus ignoring what the scripture clearly teaches. (physical mark on hand or forehead) Correct me if I am wrong.

The NT Greek for "mark" is "charagma" S5480 χάραγμα.


STRONGS NT 5480: χάραγμα

χάραγμα, χαράγματος, τό (χαράσσω to engrave);

a. a stamp, an imprinted mark: of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of Antichrist, Revelation 13:16; Revelation 14:9, 11; Revelation 15:2 Rec.; (πυρός, the mark branded upon horses, Anacreon () 26 (55), 2).

b. thing carved, sculpture, graven work: of idolatrous images, Acts 17:29. (In various other senses in Greek writings from Sophocles down.)

SabbathBlessings said:

God identifies the Sabbath as "His holy day" and it is never referred to as the holy day of the Jews or the Sabbath of the Jews. The seventh day Sabbath is part of God's holy law that He wrote with His own finger and came in a covenant of Ten. Exodus 34:28, Exodus 31:18 which was placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple which is revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19
God tells us right in the Sabbath commandment it is meant for everyone:
Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
The Sabbath was part of God's perfect plan before sin Genesis 2:1-3 and will be restored when He comes for "all flesh" not just Jews. Isaiah 66:23
Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27 and man was made on the sixth day Genesis 1:26 before the very first Sabbath in the presence of God 2:1-3 Genesis.
I'm not sure if you ever read this passage but the Sabbath is meant for everyone. It is a blessing that the Lord wants everyone to be part of Isaiah 58:13
Salvation for the Gentiles
Isaiah 56:1 Thus says the Lord:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”
There is no Jew or Gentile if you are in Christ. Galatians 3:26-30 I could write more but its supper time- will check back in later.
Perhaps you can answer these questions...

• Please point out the commandment of God for Sunday-keeping written by God’s own finger in scripture?
• Please point out the scripture the day God deems as His holy day.
• What is the day God sanctified and blessed?
• Which are the days God deemed as working days for us and for Him?
• The day Jesus kept His whole life as our example.
• The scripture where Jesus says we don’t have to obey the commandments of God and instead should follow the teachings of man.
• They day we will be worshipping the Lord according to the Lord in the New Heaven and New Earth.

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One question only. Where are gentiles commanded to keep the weekly Sabbath? It is not listed in any of the vss. you quoted.
In Acts a delegation from Jerusalem came to Antioch along with Paul and others they decided on the requirements for gentiles. This would have been the perfect time to tell them about the Sabbath. But there are only 4 requirements repeated three times. 1. abstain from things defiled by idols 2. abstain from sexual immorality 3. abstain from what has been strangled and from [4] blood. Keeping the Sabbath was not included

Lukaris said:

I do not understand how all can be saved.

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That is somewhat dependent on the definition of "saved".

We are not saying that all humankind will go directly to heaven at physical death. (be saved?)

All created things will be restored/reconciled to God.
Which includes what? (everything)

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Rom 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Lukaris said:

I would also like to add that God told the ancient fathers to warn the people of the consequences of right and wrong. ...

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Agreed. But not eternal consequences.

Jesus taught that it would be better to enter life without the offending hand or eye. (obvious exaggeration) So it is certainly serious business.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Saint Steve said:

...

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Saint Steven said:

That is somewhat dependent on the definition of "saved".
We are not saying that all humankind will go directly to heaven at physical death. (be saved?)
All created things will be restored/reconciled to God.
Which includes what? (everything)
Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Rom 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

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Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective vss. out-of-context as you have done.

Der Alte said:

One question only. Where are gentiles commanded to keep the weekly Sabbath? It is not listed in any of the vss. you quoted.
In Acts a delegation from Jerusalem came to Antioch along with Paul and others they decided on the requirements for gentiles. This would have been the perfect time to tell them about the Sabbath. But there are only 4 requirements repeated three times. 1. abstain from things defiled by idols 2. abstain from sexual immorality 3. abstain from what has been strangled and from [4] blood. Keeping the Sabbath was not included

Acts 15:1
(1) Now some men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
Acts 15:5
(5) But some from the religious party of the Pharisees who had believed stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise the Gentiles and to order them to observe the law of Moses.”
Acts 15:10
(10) So now why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear?
Acts 15:19-20
(19) “Therefore I conclude that we should not cause extra difficulty for those among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
(20) but that we should write them a letter telling them to [1]abstain from things defiled by idols and from [2]sexual immorality and from what has been [3] strangled and from blood.
Acts 15:28-29
(28) For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit and to us not to place any greater burden on you than these necessary rules:
(29) that you abstain from [1] meat that has been sacrificed to idols and from [2] blood and from [3] what has been strangled and from [4] sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from doing these things, you will do well. Farewell.
Acts 21:25
(25) But regarding the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter, having decided that they should avoid [1] meat that has been sacrificed to idols and [2] blood and [3]what has been strangled and [4] sexual immorality.”​

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I noticed you didn’t answer my questions. I believe the answers to those questions would really help understanding a lot of the scriptures.

Do you believe you are free to sin? Sin is defined as breaking God’s law. 1 John 3:4, Romans 4:15 and the commandments of God is what points out sin as Paul quotes directly from the Ten Commandments. Romans 7:7 The Ten Commandments came in a unit of Ten Exodus 34:28 not one or nine and James quotes directly from the Ten Commandments saying if you break one commandment you break them all. James 2:10-12 and Jesus again quoting from the Ten Commandments telling us to keep the least of the commandments Matthew 5:19-30. Jesus came to magnify God’s law Isaiah 42:21 and came to do the will of His Father John 6:38 and it doesn’t matter if you or anyone else accepts this or not, but the Sabbath is a commandment of God Exodus 20 , written by God’s own finger Exodus 31:18 and there is no scripture stating we are free to break the commandments of God. We should keep the commandments of God through love as God told us to right from the Ten Exodus 20:6, which Jesus repeats almost verbatim John 14:15 and love to God is obedience to His commandments 1 John 5:3

By your reasoning from Acts 15, then Gentiles can worship other gods, vain god’s holy name, steal, commit murder and bear false witness. Acts 15 is not an an exhaustive list of laws for Gentiles and in the New Covenant, there is no Jew or Gentile if you are in Christ. There is one Shepard, one fold, one law, one salvation, one gospel, one Truth.

God did not make a covenant with the Gentiles. Like the first covenant it was made with Israel. I would not want to write myself out of God’s covenant promise.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

I can only speak for myself, but I want to be one of God’s people. When He write His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant, that means they are not deleted including the Sabbath that is a commandment of God written by God’s own finger. Jesus obeyed His Fathers commandments as did the disciples which is why we see them keeping the Sabbath as our example all throughout the New Covenant. When we have faith in Christ we are part of the New Covenant promise and grafted into Gods Israel, which is really synonymous with God’s people.

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, the scriptures are shared with love and this gets sorted out soon enough. Take care

wendykvw said:

You are deflecting. I asked you to explain your position. Are non sabbath keepers those who will be condemed and will receive the mark of the beast? Yes or no?

Are you home on a computer or phone? I am typing in my phone while walking and shopping currently at King Soopers, without my Bible. When I return home I will share more if you like.

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I would like you to answer the questions I asked, if you look at this thread you will see I have mainly answered your questions and you have not answered mine. I will be happy to address in depth your questions after you answer mine.

Saint Steven said:

I beg to differ.
Try these on for size, thanks.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

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I don’t know if you noticed this, but the scriptures you shared do not say that all people will be saved regardless of what they do- perhaps you can point that one out….

It is not God’s will that anyone will be lost and God never lets go of us, but we let go of Him through the choices we make. God is not going to force us to love Him, trust Him, obey Him, or have faith in Him, but He goes above and beyond to give us the tools we need when we place our faith in Him so we can overcome. Not everyone make this choice according to clear scripture. Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 7:21-23, Hebrews 10:26-30, Revelation 22:14-15