Traditional Leaders Testimonies, Discovering Universal Restoration

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Saint Steven

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Where there is no law there is no transgression...
Right.
But when was law the given?

Romans 5:13-14 NIV
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

John 1:17 NIV
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
 
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Lukaris

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I just want to clarify that while I believe I have an assurance of salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, I do not assume to take it for granted ( Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 11:22 etc.). As a Christian if I work out this salvation ( Philippians 2:12), I will be saved by grace which I should live out in some form of works worthy of repentance ( Ephesians 2:8-10, Acts of the Apostles 26:20 etc.).

The non Christian does not have an assurance of salvation nor a guarantee of damnation. I once mentioned during a Q & A at an Orthodox seminary lecture that I believed that the Beatitudes ( Matthew 5:1-12) are not exclusive to Christians ( except for Matthew 5:11-12) & no one said I was wrong ( & I requested to be corrected if otherwise). So there are many the Lord must know ( but we do not) will be in His kingdom.

This is the best I understand when the Lord says the good will be saved and the evil will not as He preached in John 5:22-30. So I do not understand how all can be saved.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Right.
But when was law the given?

Romans 5:13-14 NIV
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

John 1:17 NIV
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
If there is no law there is no transgression Romans 4:15, 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 so if there was no law in heaven than the devil would still be there, so the law started there and as we see scripture revealed, the Ten Commandments which is stored in the ark of the covenant is also in heaven Revelation 11:19 as these are the commandments of God written by His own finger Exodus 31:18 which are found Exodus 20.

The commandments was given from the very beginning otherwise Adam and Eve never sinned or Can against Abel.
 
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Saint Steven

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It was John making a record of what the Pharisees were accusing Him of.
What is the most basic aspect of Sabbath? No work, right?
Look at what Jesus says about his Father and himself. (no Sabbath)

John 5:16-18 NIV
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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What is the most basic aspect of Sabbath? No work, right?
Look at what Jesus says about his Father and himself. (no Sabbath)

John 5:16-18 NIV
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
I think God says it best...

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exodus 20:8

The work of Jesus is not secular work, so not sure why you are trying to paint Jesus, maybe unintentionally, as a sinner when Jesus told us He kept His Fathers commandments John 15:10 and we see that as He was reading God's Word every Sabbath Luke 4:16

Doing the ways of the Lord is not a sin on the Lord’s holy Sabbath day.

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words,

Just like it is not a sin for Pastors to preach on the Sabbath about God, just like the disciples did preaching the Word of God to both Gentiles and Jews every Sabbath.

For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
- Acts 13:27

And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
- Acts 13:42

And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
- Acts 13:44

For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
- Acts 15:21

And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
- Acts 17:2

And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
- Acts 18:4

I need to run now, but I can catch up later if you have more questions.

God bless!
 
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FineLinen

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I will share some quotes from traditional leaders' testimonies that have discovered the Biblical teaching of Universal Restoration. From Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Leaders:


Protestant:
“God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy, there may be an opportunity to win it in the future.”
Martin Luther


Catholic:
"Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Savior. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgment. Before his gaze, all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, and the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God."
Pope Benedict xvi


Franciscan Preist:
“I am a Universalist, but I do believe in hell. I merely believe that hell is a temporary state and not eternal. There are many good reasons to believe in some form of "spiritual imprisonment" for those who, upon death, have thus far chosen separation and rebellion from God, love, and truth. The doors are always open in this realm and I believe God continues to seek and persuade people, through persistent love, to accept God's love, truth, and goodness. There are likely trials and suffering (like earth but of a different type, ie of the soul, not physical) here as people "sort out" their destinies. Also, this temporary holding place, much like purgatory, likely functions as a context for divine (or what many would term “karmic”) retribution to right the injustices committed in one's lifetime. I believe that eventually all beings are wooed by God's intense and persistent love for them however. Everyone is reunited to the Source of their Being. God
doesn't give up until all are convinced. And since we have an eternity, there are no "time limits."
Rev. Rebecca

Russian Orthodox:
“God's Mercy is immeasurable love of the Father. God does not make mistakes or create unredeemable trash good only to be thrown away. Though God respects human choice and free will, even when the choice is to reject Him, His love and mercy can forgive literally without exception, "without any blame."


To claim that God's mercy "diminishes or vanishes because of a created being's fall" involves a human reduction of God's glorious nature and imposes upon God "weakness and change," the Bishop said. This would be a perverted creation of God in man's own sinful image and likeness, a true "blasphemy."


"God, Bishop Hilarion said, contains no hatred or resentment, "no greater or lesser place in his love." That is the reason we can confidently state, he said, that "God loves equally the righteous and sinners, making no distinction between them. God knew man's future sinful life before the latter's creation, yet He created him. God knew all people before [their] becoming righteous or sinners, and in His love He did not change because of the fact that they underwent change."
Bishop Hilarion


Eastern Orthodox:
"When God punishes us, or appears to do so, the purpose of this punishment is never retributive and retaliatory, but exclusively reformative and therapeutic". Hell is not God torturing people into obedience, but his allowing people to experience the consequences of their decisions, and in doing so, allowing people's self-deception to be stripped away. If this is true, then hell is educative for those who do not believe in Christ. Gehenna is nothing else than a place of purging and purification which helps to bring about God's master plan that all should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth'(1 Tim.2.4). Nevertheless, it is still a place to avoid!"
Archbishop Kallistos Ware

Protestant:
“God, I do not know how you can sit on your throne there in heaven and let these poor people drop to the ground hungry, heartbroken, and lost and just randomly suck them into hell, thinking nothing of it, and be a ‘sovereign God’, not to mention a ‘God of love. There was an eerie silence before I heard a voice respond within me: Is that what you think we’re doing, sucking them all into hell? That's what I’ve been taught, I responded angrily. And what would change that? They need to get saved so they can go to heaven, I answered confidently. And how would that happen? I responded somebody needs to go over there and get them saved by preaching the Gospel to them. Well then, the voice resounded, if you really believe that, why don’t you put down your food and your baby, turn off your big-screen TV, and catch the first plane over there and get them saved? I burst into an emotional mix of tears grief, compassion, shame, guilt, and anger. Then I retorted, don’t put that guilt on me, Lord. I’m doing the best I can! I can’t leave this little girl and boy you gave me. If you wanted me to do what you’ve just suggested, you should have made that clear to me before you gave me this family. I’m doing the best I can; besides, I can’t save this whole world! Precisely, the voice responded. That’s what we already did. But these people don’t know it, and, regretfully, most of you who claim to be my followers don’t ‘believe it.”
Carlton Pearson Pentecostal Bishop

The wonderful message of the glorious Gospel continues into the hearts of those who see a day on the horizon of the whole of created life being delivered.

"I live with the confidence that there is nothing in the universe with the power to separate us from God’s love.

I’m convinced that his love will triumph over death, life’s troubles, fallen angels, or dark rulers in the heavens. There is nothing in our present or future circumstances that can weaken his love. There is no power above us or beneath us—no power that could ever be found in the universethat can distance us from God’s passionate love, which is lavished upon us through our Lord Jesus, the Anointed One! ~TPT


 
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FineLinen

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The passionate love of our heavenly Father determines the final outcome of each of us. His love triumphs !

"I live with the confidence that there is nothing in the universe with the power to separate us from God’s love.

I’m convinced that his love will triumph over death, life’s troubles, fallen angels, or dark rulers in the heavens. There is nothing in our present or future circumstances that can weaken his love. There is no power above us or beneath us—no power that could ever be found in the universe that can distance us from God’s passionate love, which is lavished upon us through our Lord Jesus, the Anointed One! ~TPT
 
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Der Alte

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According to the traditional view of eternal hell, God will redeem only a minority. Where is the victory of The cross? Satan wins the majority of the world, and the victory of the cross was defeated by sinful mankind and satan the deceiver.
Please show scripture for the "traditional views,"minority," "satan wins the majority" etc. If you are responding to me, talk to me about what I posted not what you claim some others might have said. Think you can do that?
 
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Der Alte

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Nor are yours.
Please show me where I have ever said anything I did not back up with scripture? You won't find any. Most of my posts, OBTW, have not been addressed and certainly not refuted. And FYI a scholar stating his unsupported opinion does not refute anything I have posted. If a "scholar" makes a lexical or grammatical argument he/she will need to support it with an accredited Greek grammar or lexicon e.g. Brown, Diver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon or Bauer, .Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich Greek lexicon.

BDBlink
A Hebrew and English lexicon of the Old Testament, with an appendix containing the Biblical Aramaic : Brown, Francis, 1849-1916 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

BDAG
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker (free.fr)
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Let's get back on topic.
Have you weighed in on the topic OP?
Hi Steven,

Yes I did.

Regarding the other posts, I was only responding to the OP who is the one who started asking me questions outside the original topic and I was answering your questions. :0 )

There is no scripture that says everyone will be saved, Jesus said otherwise Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 7:13-14 but we all have time right now to confess our sins and turn to Christ in obedience to Him through faith and love. We wont always have this time though Revelation 22:11 so we should make every minute count.
 
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wendykvw

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I think those who obey God through faith are the true believers. James 1:22, Romans 2:13, Romans 6:16 Revelation 22:14 Revelation 14:12, Romans 3:31 If one is depending on their righteousness instead of what God deems as righteous Psalms 119:172, then they are depending on themselves instead of God. Only God can sanctify us. John 17:17, Ezekiel 20:12

Please answer these questions and we can determine if I’m quoting EW or God.

  • Please point out the commandment of God for Sunday-keeping written by God’s own finger in scripture?
  • Please point out the scripture the day God deems as His holy day.
  • What is the day God sanctified and blessed?
  • Which are the days God deemed as working days for us and for Him?
  • The day Jesus kept His whole life as our example.
  • The scripture where Jesus says we don’t have to obey the commandments of God and instead should follow the teachings of man.
  • They day we will be worshipping the Lord according to the Lord in the New Heaven and New Earth.

If one is trying to make a case through the scripture, it should be easy to identify these scriptures, some written by God’s own finger. Also, maybe you can quote specifically the scripture I posted in the response you are replying to that you disagree with and why through scripture. Thats a much more compelling argument than the response I received which is just your opinion and our opinions, feelings, thoughts do not equal the Word of God.
Can you answer my questions. 1. Who is your authority Ellen White or scripture?
2. If a person has placed faith in Christ are they redeemed by Christ or by their sabbath keeping?
3. If a person who has placed faith in Christ worships Him everyday and attended fellowship on Sunday will they be then receive the mark of the beast?
4. Are all non SDA eternally lost if they reject sabbath keeping as a requirement for salvation?
 
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wendykvw

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I just want to clarify that while I believe I have an assurance of salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, I do not assume to take it for granted ( Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 11:22 etc.). As a Christian if I work out this salvation ( Philippians 2:12), I will be saved by grace which I should live out in some form of works worthy of repentance ( Ephesians 2:8-10, Acts of the Apostles 26:20 etc.).

The non Christian does not have an assurance of salvation nor a guarantee of damnation. I once mentioned during a Q & A at an Orthodox seminary lecture that I believed that the Beatitudes ( Matthew 5:1-12) are not exclusive to Christians ( except for Matthew 5:11-12) & no one said I was wrong ( & I requested to be corrected if otherwise). So there are many the Lord must know ( but we do not) will be in His kingdom.

This is the best I understand when the Lord says the good will be saved and the evil will not as He preached in John 5:22-30. So I do not understand how all can be saved.
Fair enough. It is my understanding God will surpass your expectations. In the same way He healed the physically blind, He too will heal the spiritually blind. Praise the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
 
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wendykvw

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Let's get back on topic.
Have you weighed in on the topic OP?
I asked her to clarify why she believes the scriptures teach that those who will receive the mark of the beast are those who worship and fellowship on Sunday.
 
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wendykvw

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Please show me where I have ever said anything I did not back up with scripture? You won't find any. Most of my posts, OBTW, have not been addressed and certainly not refuted. And FYI a scholar stating his unsupported opinion does not refute anything I have posted. If a "scholar" makes a lexical or grammatical argument he/she will need to support it with an accredited Greek grammar or lexicon e.g. Brown, Diver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon or Bauer, .Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich Greek lexicon.

BDBlink
A Hebrew and English lexicon of the Old Testament, with an appendix containing the Biblical Aramaic : Brown, Francis, 1849-1916 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

BDAG
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker (free.fr)
My point is, like everyone else you share your own opinions and presuppositions. Unless you are God, your interpretations are just as fallible as anyone else.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Can you answer my questions. 1. Who is your authority Ellen White or scripture?
2. If a person has placed faith in Christ are they redeemed by Christ or by their sabbath keeping?
3. If a person who has placed faith in Christ worships Him everyday and attended fellowship on Sunday will they be then receive the mark of the beast?
4. Are all none SDA eternally lost if they reject sabbath keeping as a requirement for salvation?
I would be happy to answer your questions, which is all I have done. :)

Before I answer anymore of your questions, I asked you questions first, which will shed light to some of your questions. If you can please address my post first, I will be happy to address yours. If you don’t have scripture evidence to support your answers to the questions I asked, just say so and we can move on.

To make it easier, here they are again.

  • Please point out the commandment of God for Sunday-keeping written by God’s own finger in scripture?
  • Please point out the scripture the day God deems as His holy day.
  • What is the day God sanctified and blessed?
  • Which are the days God deemed as working days for us and for Him?
  • The day Jesus kept His whole life as our example.
  • The scripture where Jesus says we don’t have to obey the commandments of God and instead should follow the teachings of man.
  • They day we will be worshipping the Lord according to the Lord in the New Heaven and New Earth.
 
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wendykvw

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Please show scripture for the "traditional views,"minority," "satan wins the majority" etc. If you are responding to me, talk to me about what I posted not what you claim some others might have said. Think you can do that?
Every post you have made so far promotes the traditional view. Are you now claiming that all will be redeemed by the victory of the cross? Or do you still support the view that only a few will be redeemed. Please clarify. Will all be restored or only a few. Thank you.
 
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wendykvw

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I would be happy to answer your questions, which is all I have done. :)

Before I answer anymore of your questions, which really had nothing to do with my post but more of an evasion to the scriptures shared- I asked you questions first, which will shed light to some of your questions. If you can please address my post first, I will be happy to address yours. If you don’t have scripture evidence to support your answers to the questions I asked, just say so.

To make it easier, here they are again.

  • Please point out the commandment of God for Sunday-keeping written by God’s own finger in scripture?
  • Please point out the scripture the day God deems as His holy day.
  • What is the day God sanctified and blessed?
  • Which are the days God deemed as working days for us and for Him?
  • The day Jesus kept His whole life as our example.
  • The scripture where Jesus says we don’t have to obey the commandments of God and instead should follow the teachings of man.
  • They day we will be worshipping the Lord according to the Lord in the New Heaven and New Earth.

Based on your interpetations and verses that you highlight these are the tenants of faith of SDA:

The first question you have avoided
1.Is Ellen White equal to the authority of scriptures.

Based on your answers I have concluded that you believe:

2. Those who worship and fellowship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast.
3.Non sabbatarians are unfaithful believers and will be condemed.
4. Salvation is not secured by Christ but is secured by law keeping.
 
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Der Alte

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My point is, like everyone else you share your own opinions and presuppositions. Unless you are God, your interpretations are just as fallible as anyone else.
You are the one one who provides unsupported opinion.
I know I am fallible that is why I do not provide unsupported opinions. I support everything I say from grammars or lexicons.
Here is one of my favorites. Where Jesus defines/describes the Greek word "aionios" as "eternal."
“aionios” occurs 79x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [.03%]
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T. [53%]
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T. [35%]
Jesus used “aionios” twenty-eight [28] times, 26% of the total. Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = =
Juxtapose means, the act or an instance of placing two or more things side by side often to compare or contrast.
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal/everlasting because it sometimes refers to something which is not/cannot be eternal, e.g. “world,””age.” etc.
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following 24 verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] life, and they shall never
[εἰς τον αἰῶνα/ eis ton aiona][lit. unto eternity] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​
In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐδιος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, forever, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, book of Romans, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” Thus in this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

Prove me wrong?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Based on your interpetations and verses that you highlight this is the A tenants of faith of SDA:

The first question you have avoided
1.Ellen White is equal to the authority of scriptures.

Based on your answers I have concluded that you believe:

2. Those who worship and fellowship on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast.
3.Non sabbatarian are unfaithful believers and will be condemed
4. Salvation is not secured by Christ but is secured by law keeping.
Come on, please do not put words in my mouth, this is really sad a said minster would go to this level. Nothing you have written is remotely true.

I will answer your first question which is really easy and has been answered before. God is the authority of His Word and only God. No one is equal to God, which is why I only quote scripture and no one else. Anyone who knows the first thing about EGW knows she doesn’t even claim this and points everyone back to the authority of scripture.

Can you please stop pointing fingers and either answer my questions or admit you don’t have scripture support to answer the questions. I only want to talk scripture nothing else.
 
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