The consequences of a pessimistic eschatology

It's a common criticism, one I've heard a number of times before.

It is our responsibility to guard against fatalism. Whether certain eschatological positions lend themselves to that kind of thinking...I'm more inclined to look at leaders and the manner in which they instruct their followers. I do indeed know people who are ready to pack up the tent. However they are also not receiving encouragement or proper training, IMO.

I don't find that even "negative" eschatology promotes disengagement. But it needs to be properly handled, taught and disseminated, by those with sound understanding.

JM said:

Christ dealing with disobey Israel is not the Second Coming.

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Then which coming was it?
Matthew 21:40-45
40 “Therefore, when the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

We can all agree that THIS coming of the Lord of the Vineyard, the Chief Cornerstone, to "miserably destroy", indeed "grind to powder", disobedient Israel is past, and took place AFTER Jesus ascended to Heaven, so.... which coming was it?

Coming #1.5? 1.75? 1.99?

It saddens me to see so many Christians who have such a dim, defeatist view of the power of the Gospel to make disciples of all nations in this age.

What a sad, pessimistic view that renders the Jesus and His Church impotent and powerless in the age of the everlasting Gospel where righteousness dwells, which Jesus Himself ushered into existence.

Contrary to the sad, sorry defeatism of premillennialists, scripture teaches us
we are to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as the Hebrews 11 heroes did:

Hebrews 11:6, 32-33
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him...for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions

The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11 brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had.
Nothing can stop us (Matthew 16:18-19).

2 Corinthians 5:18-20
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as God did beseech you by us

So we can see that at this time God is reconciling all the world unto himself.

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them [past tense]: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 2:13
ye have overcome the wicked one.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith

Compared to the state of the planet 2000 years ago, there is no question that both the moral sense and the covenantal reality of nations have been radically changed for the better by Christ and the Church. Here's a great quote from David Chilton about the progress of Christendom:

"Examples could be multiplied in every field. The whole rise of Western Civilization - science and technology, medicine, the arts, constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women - is attributable to one major fact: the West has been transformed by Christianity. True, the transformation is not yet complete. There are many battles ahead. But the point is that, even in what is still largely an early Christian civilization, God has showered us with blessings." - David Chilton

Just look at how Christian post- and a-millennialists built this great country!

And, sadly, just look at how Christian pre-millennialists abandoned this country. Since the mid-1800s, C.I. Scofield and DL Moody, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack Van Impe, etc... have been teaching a message that America is doomed "according to the bible." They even taught that voting and participation in civil duties were pointless. Such "prophetic inevitibility" and doomsaying doesn't create kingdom-buliders like Moses or Paul or George Washington--it creates only visionless do-nothing Christians. Only kingdom-advancing views such as preterism, postmillennialism, and certain ranks of amillennialism will be able to save our country and empower Christians to build newer and more godly ones for the future. America wasn't built by dispensationalists, but it sure has been hurt by them. Their theology of defeat must be resisted and trumped by the victorious truth about Christ and the kingdom.

None of this speaks kindly for the cowardice, abandonment, and dereliction of duty dispensational pre-millennialists have taught to our country and the Church. Endtimes madness--like that which paralyzes most pre millennialists and prevents them from experiencing the victory of our faith--must be ended if America is to return to her great heritage. The heathens aren't supermen, they're just plain old pagans who believe there is a future, and that the future belongs to anyone with the courage to fight for it.

The constant fearful statements and despair that pre milennialists express about the world and their daily lives shows us that their doctrine that fuels such a "defeat mentality" is not based on FAITH, HOPE, and LOVE. Compare Joshua to the other spies who were afraid and gave a bad report about the land. That story is like post millennialists and and pre millennialists today. Pre Mil's are the spies who always fearfully say "there are giants in the land!" Post and A-Millennialists are the JOSHUAS who say "THE LAND IS OURS! LET'S TAKE IT. God has given the land to US!"

We must not be fooled by the cowardly Christians that say "b-b-but...there are giants in the land!"

water of life said:

I don't find that even "negative" eschatology promotes disengagement.

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I disagree, and believe History backs me up.
The implications of the "were the final generation" mentality were spelled out by men like D.L. Moody, C.I. Scofield, etc etc. They believed that since they were in the final moments, no human efforts should be made in the realm of normal life and society so as to establish a more godly polity and government. According to their views, evil was predestined to win the day and the Church was predestined to withdrawal so as to escape. (One only need crack open any American History book and read about baptist minister William Miller and the "Great Disappointment of 1844" to see the real world implications of such disengagement)

C.I. Scofield discouraged voting! And, I believe it was Moody's famous line that: "You Don't Polish Brass on a Sinking Ship," which meant that Christians simply could not stem the tide of predestined last days wickedness and should, therefore, retreat. The earth was a "sinking ship" and so Christian endeavor was in vain. This has been disastrous to our society since it is the mainstream mindset amongst evangelicals.

What if Moses would have had such a mindset? What if Lincoln or Washington would have had such a mindset? What will happen if the evangelicals continue to have such a mindset? We must not continue to fail our children and grandchildren by endtimes laziness and withdrawal.

parousia70 said:

Then which coming was it?
Matthew 21:40-45
40 “Therefore, when the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

We can all agree that THIS coming of the Lord of the Vineyard, the Chief Cornerstone, to "miserably destroy", indeed "grind to powder", disobedient Israel is past, and took place AFTER Jesus ascended to Heaven, so.... which coming was it?

Coming #1.5? 1.75? 1.99?

Click to expand...

You're missing the context of the parable. The "lord of the vineyard" or vineyard owner is God the Father. Look at verse 37 where it talks about the vineyard owner sending his son who was then killed by "those vinedressers". So, the vineyard owner's son represents Jesus in the parable and the vineyard owner represents God the Father. It talks about the vineyard owner coming to punish "those vinedressers", not the vineyard's son coming to punish them. How can a coming of God the Father to punish the Jewish people who rejected His Son be considered the second coming of Jesus Christ?

parousia70 said:

I disagree, and believe History backs me up.
The implications of the "were the final generation" mentality were spelled out by men like D.L. Moody, C.I. Scofield, etc etc. They believed that since they were in the final moments, no human efforts should be made in the realm of normal life and society so as to establish a more godly polity and government. According to their views, evil was predestined to win the day and the Church was predestined to withdrawal so as to escape. (One only need crack open any American History book and read about baptist minister William Miller and the "Great Disappointment of 1844" to see the real world implications of such disengagement)

C.I. Scofield discouraged voting! And, I believe it was Moody's famous line that: "You Don't Polish Brass on a Sinking Ship," which meant that Christians simply could not stem the tide of predestined last days wickedness and should, therefore, retreat. The earth was a "sinking ship" and so Christian endeavor was in vain. This has been disastrous to our society since it is the mainstream mindset amongst evangelicals.

What if Moses would have had such a mindset? What if Lincoln or Washington would have had such a mindset? What will happen if the evangelicals continue to have such a mindset? We must not continue to fail our children and grandchildren by endtimes laziness and withdrawal.

Click to expand...

I'm sure we could both come up with plenty of examples. I notice disengagement and others teaching disengagement. I just don't think a premillennial, futurist interpretation of, for instance, Matthew 24 and 25 supports disengagement.

Jesus paints a picture in Matthew 24, he then tells several parables that illustrate what the point is of "watching" and how he expects to find us working when he returns. The parable of the talents, for example. The one who buried his talent in the ground, is the one who disengaged. Considered to be lazy, worthless and cast out. The others continued to work and were rewarded.

I go back to my earlier point about encouragement and instruction. Those are the things I find lacking. Anyone is susceptible to withdrawal when they're beat down by a steady stream of negative headlines and a dour outlook on the world. The idea that Jesus is coming soon is supposed to be a cause for joy, hope, and a motivator to be busy about the Lord's business. Those who believe in this shouldn't be so depressed, or without direction.

IMO it is the leaders and teachers that need to be faithful to the true message behind premillennial futurism, and if they did maybe it wouldn't be seen as "negative".

Spiritual Jew said:

You're missing the context of the parable. The "lord of the vineyard" or vineyard owner is God the Father. Look at verse 37 where it talks about the vineyard owner sending his son who was then killed by "those vinedressers". So, the vineyard owner's son represents Jesus in the parable and the vineyard owner represents God the Father. It talks about the vineyard owner coming to punish "those vinedressers", not the vineyard's son coming to punish them. How can a coming of God the Father to punish the Jewish people who rejected His Son be considered the second coming of Jesus Christ?

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Are you suggesting that Jesus is not one with the Father? Don't you know that Jesus is the Stone of Matthew 21:40-45?

water of life said:

I'm sure we could both come up with plenty of examples. I notice disengagement and others teaching disengagement. I just don't think a premillennial, futurist interpretation of, for instance, Matthew 24 and 25 supports disengagement.

Jesus paints a picture in Matthew 24, he then tells several parables that illustrate what the point is of "watching" and how he expects to find us working when he returns. The parable of the talents, for example. The one who buried his talent in the ground, is the one who disengaged. Considered to be lazy, worthless and cast out. The others continued to work and were rewarded.

I go back to my earlier point about encouragement and instruction. Those are the things I find lacking. Anyone is susceptible to withdrawal when they're beat down by a steady stream of negative headlines and a dour outlook on the world. The idea that Jesus is coming soon is supposed to be a cause for joy, hope, and a motivator to be busy about the Lord's business. Those who believe in this shouldn't be so depressed, or without direction.

IMO it is the leaders and teachers that need to be faithful to the true message behind premillennial futurism, and if they did maybe it wouldn't be seen as "negative".

Click to expand...

Dispensationalist activism is an oxymoron. Why would any reasonable dispensationalist seek to reform a system that they teach and believe is unreformable? I do, however, thank God for the UN-reasonable dispensationalists that seek to reform the system they believe is unreformable. They may be confused and self-contradictory, but I thank God for them.

We non-dispys are indeed grateful for all those *inconsistant* dispensationalists that rally their troops to reform the world that thay also teach "cannot be reformed." We are overwhelmed with joy in dispensationalists who fail to live in true accord with the common dispensationalist worldview stated by John MacArthur: "Reclaiming the culture is a pointless, futile exercise. I am convinced we are living in a post-Christian society - a civilization that exists under God's judgment."