Hour of trial on the whole world

keras · Jun 30, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
That passage is talking about UNBELIEVERS when it talks about people being blinded.

You are wrong on this as well, Proved by _
Isaiah 42:18-20 Who is so blind as My servant, the ones who have My trust......They see many things, but they observe nothing, They hear much, but they don't understand.
Jeremiah 6:10 To whom shall I speak, to whom give warning? The people are incapable of listening, they reject the Lord's Word.

Spiritual Jew said:
You should be ashamed of yourself for condemning fellow Christians just because they don't agree with some of your end times views.[/QUOTE]

It is unfortunate that presenting the truths of the Prophetic Word can cause upset to those whose beliefs are challenged and shown to be wrong.
My intent is purely to present the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I wish for everyone to know what must happen and to be prepared physically and spiritually for it all.

claninja · Jun 30, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
Please tell me you were joking when you said this. You can't expect to be taken seriously by making comments like this.

So, for example, when Jesus rebuked the people of the church in Laodicea for being lukewarm (Rev 3:14-19), He wasn't actually saying that the people of the church in Laodicea were lukewarm?

I'm just shaking my head over here.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

So, Jesus told John to write down what he saw and have it delivered to those seven actual churches in the actual existing Roman province of Asia, but you think He wouldn't make sure that they received the letters in time to be encouraged by His positive messages and in time to heed His warnings and instructions for them? In that case, why in the world were they even addressed to those churches if nothing written there actually applied to them? Come on. Be serious.

So, the way in which Jesus kept them from the hour of trial was by letting them die rather than from protecting them from it while they were alive as the verse indicates He would do (which is similar to what He said in John 17:15)?

Show me where that is stated in the letters themselves. Good luck. Yes, what is written there in Revelation 2-3 are things that the church can always learn from, but that doesn't mean there wasn't anything there that specifically applied to those churches. Again, there's the example where Jesus scolded the church in Laodicea for being lukewarm. He wasn't calling other people lukewarm, He was calling those actual people in that actual church lukewarm. And it has served as a warning for any lukewarm people ever since as well, but it was still primarily addressed to the people in that church.

absolutely agree. Although we may disagree on what the “hour of trial coming upon the the world to test those that dwell on the earth” was.

What historical event do you believe “the hour of trial coming upon the whole world” was, that the church of Philadelphia was counted worthy to be kept from for their patient endurance?

Timtofly · Jun 30, 2022

Douggg said:
Tim, let's wait till the k1 chart is finished. Then either keras or myself can open another thread and we can discuss it.

Why go to the trouble to put any "days" in if you leave some out?

Douggg · Jun 30, 2022

Timtofly said:
Why go to the trouble to put any "days" in if you leave some out?

no chart is going to be all inclusive. There is not enough space. The k1 chart is a basic left to right timeline chart of events.

There is a thread I started on the k1 chart, which would be good place to discuss everything about the chart that basically belongs to keras. I just helped in the technical preparation. What information keras chose to include and what information keras chose to leave out - ask him in that thread.

k1 chart - open for discussion

Spiritual Jew · Jun 30, 2022

Hammster said:
Probably because you are trying to fit it into a future model when indeed it happened in the past.

No, it's because your post lacked any explanation of what exactly you were talking about.

Spiritual Jew · Jun 30, 2022

claninja said:
absolutely agree. Although we may disagree on what the “hour of trial coming upon the the world to test those that dwell on the earth” was.

What historical event do you believe “the hour of trial coming upon the whole world” was, that the church of Philadelphia was counted worthy to be kept from for their patient endurance?

I honestly am not sure. I haven't taken a lot of time studying that, but I'd like to at some point. I do believe the book of Revelation was written after 70 AD, so that obviously rules out your particular understanding of the verse as an option for me to consider. But, I'm not big on speculating about things like this. I'd rather research it diligently first and then give my thoughts on it.

I will say this, though. Jesus does give the impression that whatever that hour of trial was, it was something that would occur in the lifetimes of people in the church in Philadelphia. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for Him to say He would protect them from it. And I also question whether "the whole world" in that verse is referring to literally the entire world or just to the known world at that time back then.

Hammster · Jun 30, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
No, it's because your post lacked any explanation of what exactly you were talking about.

It was there.

Spiritual Jew · Jun 30, 2022

keras said:
You are wrong on this as well, Proved by _
Isaiah 42:18-20 Who is so blind as My servant, the ones who have My trust......They see many things, but they observe nothing, They hear much, but they don't understand.
Jeremiah 6:10 To whom shall I speak, to whom give warning? The people are incapable of listening, they reject the Lord's Word.

No, you are wrong on this. As you typically do, you bring up unrelated verses to try to prove your point.

Besides the Isaiah 29 passage you also referenced this verse:

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

He was talking about wise and learned people like the Pharisees and scribes there. Unbelievers. So, again I say that you are judging me if you're lumping me in with those being referenced in Isaiah 29 and Matthew 11:25. At least you didn't do it on purpose and only did it because of your ignorance of what those verses actually mean.

It is unfortunate that presenting the truths of the Prophetic Word can cause upset to those whose beliefs are challenged and shown to be wrong.
My intent is purely to present the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I wish for everyone to know what must happen and to be prepared physically and spiritually for it all.

Who wouldn't be upset if someone is condemning them for merely disagreeing with someone's end times views? That's how it came across. If that wasn't your intention, fine, but there are better ways to get your point across than the way you did, which came across as though you were judging me.

Spiritual Jew · Jun 30, 2022

Hammster said:
It was there.

LOL. Okay, if you say so. I guess it was hidden.

claninja · Jun 30, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
I honestly am not sure. I haven't taken a lot of time studying that, but I'd like to at some point. I do believe the book of Revelation was written after 70 AD, so that obviously rules out your particular understanding of the verse as an option for me to consider. But, I'm not big on speculating about things like this. I'd rather research it diligently first and then give my thoughts on it.

I will say this, though. Jesus does give the impression that whatever that hour of trial was, it was something that would occur in the lifetimes of people in the church in Philadelphia. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for Him to say He would protect them from it. And I also question whether "the whole world" in that verse is referring to literally the entire world or just to the known world at that time back then.

fair enough, I appreciate the honesty.

For me (not trying to convince you, just giving you my thought process), this verse is probably the number 1 reason why I believe revelation was written pre 70ad.

It’s so closely related to the events of the olivet discourse. Luke records Jesus stating “pray that you are counted worthy to escape what is about to happen (the events to come upon all who dwell on the earth)”

Luke 21:35-36 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of all the earth. So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Jesus clearly stated the church of Philadelphia was found worthy for their patient endurance to be kept from the “hour of trial coming upon the whole world”.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

it’s just so similar to ignore. But again, I do understand you need to research this a bit more.

DavidPT · Jun 30, 2022

claninja said:
fair enough, I appreciate the honesty.

For me (not trying to convince you, just giving you my thought process), this verse is probably the number 1 reason why I believe revelation was written pre 70ad.

It’s so closely related to the events of the olivet discourse. Luke records Jesus stating “pray that you are counted worthy to escape what is about to happen (the events to come upon all who dwell on the earth)”

Luke 21:35-36 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of all the earth. So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Jesus clearly stated the church of Philadelphia was found worthy for their patient endurance to be kept from the “hour of trial coming upon the whole world”.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

it’s just so similar to ignore. But again, I do understand you need to research this a bit more.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

If we assume these are referring to the same events, and if we assume these events are involving something in the first century--logic alone says, assuming that scenario, the following would have to mean these meant in Revelation 3:10 would have to initially be in the vicinity of where Luke 21:36 is meaning, then leaving that area before these things take place ---I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation--- and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass.

If John is writing to the church of Philadelphia before 70 AD, and the fact the church of Philadelphia is not even in Israel, at least according to ancient maps I looked at, this would obviously mean they are where the church of Phildelphia is at the time, and in order for them to be spared the hour of trial in the future, this means they have to first leave where they currently are, then go to where the hour of trial is to take place, then leave before it takes place. Why would they need to do all of that? They are not even in the vincinity of the hour of trial to begin with if that hour of trial is involving what took place in 70 AD. The point being, if an interpretation doesn't make sense when thinking some of it through, it's probably because the interpretation is not reasonable to begin with, therefore can't be correct.

Spiritual Jew · Jun 30, 2022

claninja said:
fair enough, I appreciate the honesty.

For me (not trying to convince you, just giving you my thought process), this verse is probably the number 1 reason why I believe revelation was written pre 70ad.

It’s so closely related to the events of the olivet discourse. Luke records Jesus stating “pray that you are counted worthy to escape what is about to happen (the events to come upon all who dwell on the earth)”

Luke 21:35-36 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of all the earth. So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Jesus clearly stated the church of Philadelphia was found worthy for their patient endurance to be kept from the “hour of trial coming upon the whole world”.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

it’s just so similar to ignore. But again, I do understand you need to research this a bit more.

I don't need to research Luke 21:34-36 any more, though. That is related to the future second coming of Christ. I have no doubt about that. So, if those passages are about the same event, then that would mean Jesus was telling the church in Philadelphia that He would protect them from that hour of trial IF they were still alive when it happened. But, I'm not so sure that the two passages are talking about the same event, though.

claninja · Jul 1, 2022

DavidPT said:
If John is writing to the church of Philadelphia before 70 AD, and the fact the church of Philadelphia is not even in Israel, at least according to ancient maps I looked at, this would obviously mean they are where the church of Phildelphia is at the time, and in order for them to be spared the hour of trial in the future, this means they have to first leave where they currently are, then go to where the hour of trial is to take place, then leave before it takes place. Why would they need to do all of that? They are not even in the vincinity of the hour of trial to begin with if that hour of trial is involving what took place in 70 AD. The point being, if an interpretation doesn't make sense when thinking some of it through, it's probably because the interpretation is not reasonable to begin with, therefore can't be correct.

The Jewish Roman war took place at the same time as the Roman civil was (year of four emperors). The entire Roman Empire was thrown into turmoil and affected by this.

claninja · Jul 1, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
I don't need to research Luke 21:34-36 any more, though. That is related to the future second coming of Christ. I have no doubt about that. So, if those passages are about the same event, then that would mean Jesus was telling the church in Philadelphia that He would protect them from that hour of trial IF they were still alive when it happened. But, I'm not so sure that the two passages are talking about the same event, though.

sorry, I didn’t mean you needed more research on Luke, if that’s what you thought I meant. I meant on what event was the “hour of trial coming upon the whole world” I’m revelation 3:10. That’s what I’m more curious about.

It’s pretty clear what event it would be if written pre 70ad, but I’m curious as to what event it would be if written post 70ad. A common answer seems to be “unknown”….

claninja · Jul 1, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
So, if those passages are about the same event, then that would mean Jesus was telling the church in Philadelphia that He would protect them from that hour of trial IF they were still alive when it happened. But, I'm not so sure that the two passages are talking about the same event, though.

revelation 3:10 is clearly talking about an event the church of Philadelphia would be kept from. There is no indication in the text for “IF they were still alive”.

1.) IF one believes revelation 3:10 was written post 70ad, and is not about the “days of vengeance”, “distress on the earth” or “vengeance upon this people”(pray to be worthy to escape all these things), then one is forced to create a different event entirely for revelation 3:10, and yet no one has a reasonable answer as to what event this would be. A common answer is “unknown”.

2.) if one believes revelation 3:10 was written post 70ad, and also believes it is about the “days of vengeance”, “distress on the earth, and wrath against this people” (pray to be worthy to escape these things) , they are forced to say “ IF the church of Philadelphia is still alive, then God will count them worthy to be kept from the hour of trial”. Such is untenable based on the context of revelation 3:10. It was clearly a promise directed at them for their patient endurance.

Hammster · Jul 1, 2022

claninja said:
revelation 3:10 is clearly talking about an event the church of Philadelphia would be kept from. There is no indication in the text for “IF they were still alive”.

1.) IF one believes revelation 3:10 was written post 70ad, and is not about the “days of vengeance”, “distress on the earth” or “vengeance upon this people”(pray to be worthy to escape all these things), then one is forced to create a different event entirely for revelation 3:10, and yet no one has a reasonable answer as to what event this would be. A common answer is “unknown”.

2.) if one believes revelation 3:10 was written post 70ad, and also believes it is about the “days of vengeance”, “distress on the earth, and wrath against this people” (pray to be worthy to escape these things) , they are forced to say “ IF the church of Philadelphia is still alive, then God will count them worthy to be kept from the hour of trial”. Such is untenable based on the context of revelation 3:10. It was clearly a promise directed at them for their patient endurance.

I’ve noticed that the futurists generally don’t post much about chapters 1-3. This is one of the reasons.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 1, 2022

claninja said:
sorry, I didn’t mean you needed more research on Luke, if that’s what you thought I meant.

No, I didn't think you meant that. I'm just saying that Luke 21:34-36 doesn't necessarily help us identify what Revelation 3:10 is about.

I meant on what event was the “hour of trial coming upon the whole world” I’m revelation 3:10. That’s what I’m more curious about.

Click to expand...

Yes, I know that.

It’s pretty clear what event it would be if written pre 70ad, but I’m curious as to what event it would be if written post 70ad. A common answer seems to be “unknown”….

Click to expand...

Obviously, "the hour of trial" is not specifically explained, so we are left to speculate on it. It's very unfortunate that we don't know for certain when the book of Revelation was written, but it is what it is.

I remember seeing sovereigngrace give an explanation for what "the hour of trial" could have been one time when this subject came up, but I can't recall exactly what he said since it was awhile back at this point. Maybe he will chime in at some point.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 1, 2022

claninja said:
revelation 3:10 is clearly talking about an event the church of Philadelphia would be kept from. There is no indication in the text for “IF they were still alive”.

And I was not saying with any certainty that there is any indication of that. You didn't catch that? I was saying that would be the only thing that could make sense to me IF Revelation 3:10 and Luke 21:34-36 are referring to the same event. But, I have doubts that they are referring to the same event.

1.) IF one believes revelation 3:10 was written post 70ad, and is not about the “days of vengeance”, “distress on the earth” or “vengeance upon this people”(pray to be worthy to escape all these things), then one is forced to create a different event entirely for revelation 3:10, and yet no one has a reasonable answer as to what event this would be. A common answer is “unknown”.

Click to expand...

Yeah, so be it. I'm curious and would like to understand what the verse is talking about, but it's not a crucial verse to me in determining what happened in the past and what will happen in the future. We have plenty of other scripture to use to determine that. But, in your case, this verse seems to be part of the foundation of your doctrine, which I don't understand. I prefer to form the foundation of my doctrine on more clear verses than that one. And, even if it was clear if the book was written before 70 AD, it's not clear that the book was written before 70 AD, so that means what the verse is saying is not clear to anyone.

2.) if one believes revelation 3:10 was written post 70ad, and also believes it is about the “days of vengeance”, “distress on the earth, and wrath against this people” (pray to be worthy to escape these things) , they are forced to say “ IF the church of Philadelphia is still alive, then God will count them worthy to be kept from the hour of trial”. Such is untenable based on the context of revelation 3:10. It was clearly a promise directed at them for their patient endurance.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's true, but I don't believe the days of vengeance (which relates specifically to Jerusalem) and Luke 21:34-36 (which is global) refer to the same event. So, what you're saying here doesn't apply to me.

keras · Jul 1, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
Obviously, "the hour of trial" is not specifically explained, so we are left to speculate on it.

It will be the same event as 1 Peter 4:12 mentions.
It will be the unexpected shock of the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Revelation 6:12-17
The trial and testing of our faith, that people seem unable to comprehend. Isaiah 8:16

Our world is now in a fine balance and anything can tip us into chaos. The war in Ukraine will cause food shortages. Covid disease has caused much distress and hardship.
But wait for the Day....when the Lord will pour His flaming anger upon the earth....Zephaniah 3:8

DavidPT · Jul 1, 2022

claninja said:
The Jewish Roman war took place at the same time as the Roman civil was (year of four emperors). The entire Roman Empire was thrown into turmoil and affected by this.

That's a fair argument, something I never took into account, yet I still disagree that the hour of trial had anything to do with anything in the first century. But I can see why some of you think it did. But I'm looking at other clues, then asking myself, is this something that could only be fulfilled during the days of that particular church? Or is this something that can be fulfilled beyond the days of that particular church? Such as.

Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Can verse 12 be fulfilled without it involving the coming in verse 11?

Hour of trial on the whole world

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Psalm 144:1

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Psalm 144:1

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