Postmillennialism

JM · Jun 21, 2022

Everything you need to know about postmillennial preterism can be found on this playlist.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJFEiE4GKkvA2bhcPdlFhUlRekX7X9DcF

During the lockdowns of 2020 I redeemed the time by diving into eschatology and ended up Postmil. The evidence is overwhelming.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Hammster · Jun 21, 2022

That should clear everything up. ^_^

Timtofly · Jun 21, 2022

Sounds like it is all over, before it even starts.

JM · Jun 21, 2022

Hammster said:
That should clear everything up.

I'm listening to the playlist for a second time.

JM · Jun 21, 2022

Timtofly said:
Sounds like it is all over, before it even starts.

All over?

We have only just started!

grafted branch · Jun 22, 2022

JM said:
Everything you need to know about postmillennial preterism can be found on this playlist.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJFEiE4GKkvA2bhcPdlFhUlRekX7X9DcF

During the lockdowns of 2020 I redeemed the time by diving into eschatology and ended up Postmil. The evidence is overwhelming.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Hi JM, I would like to get the postmil view on Satans little season which happens at the end of the 1,000 years.

I can’t tell from the titles which video discusses this specifically, do you know which video would cover this?

Timtofly · Jun 22, 2022

JM said:
All over?

We have only just started!

How has preterism convinced you, it all just started? Preterism focuses on 70AD. That was, how many years ago, 1952?

Hammster · Jun 23, 2022

Timtofly said:
How has preterism convinced you, it all just started? Preterism focuses on 70AD. That was, how many years ago, 1952?

Wherever you are getting your info is just plain wrong. Get new sources. Maybe even the ones in the OP. That way you aren’t putting up straw men.

JM · Jun 24, 2022

Hi JM, I would like to get the postmil view on Satans little season which happens at the end of the 1,000 years. I can’t tell from the titles which video discusses this specifically, do you know which video would cover this?

Postmil and Amil were essentially one school with different emphasis before the current age. Postmil was optimistic and Amil is pessimistic. Since both views are very similar I, as a Postmiller, see the 1,000 years as progressive growth of the Kingdom over time with Satan’s little season being before the Second Coming. The growth of the Kingdom can be see today even if the church in North American is falling/has fallen. I posted a chart in the Postmil safe house thread.

How has preterism convinced you, it all just started? Preterism focuses on 70AD. That was, how many years ago, 1952?

Well, I’m not 100% convinced of preterism but lean in that direction. I’m also considering Historicism and can’t shake the mighty witness we have from the early church and Reformers concerning the Historical understanding of prophecy. Preterists believe judgement against Israel took place in 70 ad but that was not the Second Coming but the end of the Jewish age. When the Temple was destroyed that was a fulfillment of the covenant curses with the Second Coming being future. I believe we are still in the early church with a few thousand years ahead of us and have plenty of work to do to establish the Kingdom through the preaching of the Gospel, missions, and the continued practice of “pure religion.

tall73 · Jun 25, 2022

JM said:
Postmil and Amil were essentially one school with different emphasis before the current age. Postmil was optimistic and Amil is pessimistic. Since both views are very similar I, as a Postmiller, see the 1,000 years as progressive growth of the Kingdom over time with Satan’s little season being before the Second Coming. The growth of the Kingdom can be see today even if the church in North American is falling/has fallen. I posted a chart in the Postmil safe house thread.

Well, I’m not 100% convinced of preterism but lean in that direction. I’m also considering Historicism and can’t shake the mighty witness we have from the early church and Reformers concerning the Historical understanding of prophecy. Preterists believe judgement against Israel took place in 70 ad but that was not the Second Coming but the end of the Jewish age. When the Temple was destroyed that was a fulfillment of the covenant curses with the Second Coming being future. I believe we are still in the early church with a few thousand years ahead of us and have plenty of work to do to establish the Kingdom through the preaching of the Gospel, missions, and the continued practice of “pure religion.

I am considering all the views, but I have been going through the playlist.

Another short playlist I found helpful was this three hour series by Bahnsen.

JM · Jun 25, 2022

tall73 said:
I am considering all the views, but I have been going through the playlist.

Another short playlist I found helpful was this three hour series by Bahnsen.

There really is no rush in nailing down eschatology. It took me 20 years to settle into a position on the millennium, one that "fit" all of scripture and fuels me to evangelism.

Jeffwhosoever · Jun 29, 2022

One basic problem I have with postmillennialism is that it not only assumes that the world is going to become better and better, more and more Christian until at last it is near 100% Christian, but it REQUIRES such a condition to exist in order for the Lord to return. The "all enemies must be put under my feet" idea. In addition to a lot of other reasons to question postmillennialism based on Scriptural and theological grounds, I do not see the world linearly, unidirectionally progressing over the last 2000 years toward a 100% Christian world, with total peace and complete obedience to God and the goodness of mankind. I'd like to see that chart posted in the safe house you refer to, if that somehow demonstrates this progress to a 100% Christian world. Cause the world I see is heading in the complete opposite direction. Before someone attacks me for suggesting the Gospel has failed, it is not God's fault but man that is failing the Gospel, as man has done since the hiss of the snake was first heard in the garden. Even though we now have the Holy Spirit in the world since the resurrection and Pentecost, we still continue to live in a sinful world, darkening by the day it seems.

Another big flaw I see in Postmillennialism / Preterism is the fact that the Lord did not return in AD 70 as described in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:30-31) and in Revelation 19:11-21. Where in Scripture does it state Jesus returned in John's lifetime? Where does Josephesus say he saw anything resembling the return of the Lord as described in Matthew 24? If Jesus came again in AD 70, why is he coming back again? Where in Scripture does it describe a return in John's life AND another return in the future, or anywhere else for that matter?

Amillennialism has a big advantage over postmillennialism because it does not require this long period of near or actual perfect obedience to Christ, and the Lord can come back whenever the Father tells Him to, not dependent on human progress. However, I'm still a premillennialist simply because it seems to be the best fit to Scripture, though no eschatological system is perfect and without weaknesses, which is why you'll never hear me say I'm 100% sure I'm right.

Hammster · Jun 29, 2022

Jeffwhosoever said:
One basic problem I have with postmillennialism is that it not only assumes that the world is going to become better and better, more and more Christian until at last it is near 100% Christian, but it REQUIRES such a condition to exist in order for the Lord to return. The "all enemies must be put under my feet" idea. In addition to a lot of other reasons to question postmillennialism based on Scriptural and theological grounds, I do not see the world linearly, unidirectionally progressing over the last 2000 years toward a 100% Christian world, with total peace and complete obedience to God and the goodness of mankind. I'd like to see that chart posted in the safe house you refer to, if that somehow demonstrates this progress to a 100% Christian world. Cause the world I see is heading in the complete opposite direction. Before someone attacks me for suggesting the Gospel has failed, it is not God's fault but man that is failing the Gospel, as man has done since the hiss of the snake was first heard in the garden. Even though we now have the Holy Spirit in the world since the resurrection and Pentecost, we still continue to live in a sinful world, darkening by the day it seems.

Another big flaw I see in Postmillennialism / Preterism is the fact that the Lord did not return in AD 70 as described in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:30-31) and in Revelation 19:11-21. Where in Scripture does it state Jesus returned in John's lifetime? Where does Josephesus say he saw anything resembling the return of the Lord as described in Matthew 24? If Jesus came again in AD 70, why is he coming back again? Where in Scripture does it describe a return in John's life AND another return in the future, or anywhere else for that matter?

Amillennialism has a big advantage over postmillennialism because it does not require this long period of near or actual perfect obedience to Christ, and the Lord can come back whenever the Father tells Him to, not dependent on human progress. However, I'm still a premillennialist simply because it seems to be the best fit to Scripture, though no eschatological system is perfect and without weaknesses, which is why you'll never hear me say I'm 100% sure I'm right.

I guess my first response is, should we have as our authority what you see, or what scripture teaches?

rwb · Jun 29, 2022

Jeffwhosoever said:
Before someone attacks me for suggesting the Gospel has failed, it is not God's fault but man that is failing the Gospel, as man has done since the hiss of the snake was first heard in the garden. Even though we now have the Holy Spirit in the world since the resurrection and Pentecost, we still continue to live in a sinful world, darkening by the day it seems.

How has the Gospel failed exactly? The Gospel is being proclaimed unto all the earth through the universal church. It is for this reason Christ declares: Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Would not the only reason you think the Gospel in the hands of man has failed be through the gates of hell (Satan) being more powerful than the church that is sent out in the power of the Holy Spirit?

The Gospel has not and is not failing. The church through the power of God and according to His grace is triumphant yesterday, today and tomorrow, because the gates of hell cannot prevent the message of the Gospel from accomplishing the purpose for which it has been sent through the militant, and triumphant Church!

Timtofly · Jun 29, 2022

rwb said:
How has the Gospel failed exactly? The Gospel is being proclaimed unto all the earth through the universal church. It is for this reason Christ declares: Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Would not the only reason you think the Gospel in the hands of man has failed be through the gates of hell (Satan) being more powerful than the church that is sent out in the power of the Holy Spirit?

The Gospel has not and is not failing. The church through the power of God and according to His grace is triumphant yesterday, today and tomorrow, because the gates of hell cannot prevent the message of the Gospel from accomplishing the purpose for which it has been sent through the militant, and triumphant Church!

Why is the response always about the gospel failing?

The point is people are failing the gospel, not that the gospel is failing the people.

The Millennium is not even about God trying to subjugate sin. Sin was eradicated even before the Millennium started. That alone is the reason Amil and Post Mill are wrong. Many claim that Daniel's 70th week was already fulfilled in the first century. That is impossible.

rwb · Jun 29, 2022

Timtofly said:
Why is the response always about the gospel failing?

The point is people are failing the gospel, not that the gospel is failing the people.

The Millennium is not even about God trying to subjugate sin. Sin was eradicated even before the Millennium started. That alone is the reason Amil and Post Mill are wrong. Many claim that Daniel's 70th week was already fulfilled in the first century. That is impossible.

Okay, let me rephrase my question to you, how is man failing the gospel? If man has failed the gospel, then God is without power to save His elect. His gospel goes out into the world through mankind! Man is the instrument that God has chosen to use to fulfill His purpose for saving a people for Himself through the proclamation of the Gospel, sent in the power of His Spirit. So if man has failed the gospel as you ASSUME, then the gospel has failed, therefore God has failed and could not accomplish His plan to eternally save His elect people through the Gospel and Holy Spirit power.

Of course the most ridiculous part of this is that it denies God has power to save His people and that makes Satan victorious.

DavidPT · Jun 29, 2022

Jeffwhosoever said:
Amillennialism has a big advantage over postmillennialism because it does not require this long period of near or actual perfect obedience to Christ, and the Lord can come back whenever the Father tells Him to, not dependent on human progress.

Personally, I don't agree with any view who insists He can return at any time whatsoever, which might include today, tommorrow, etc. The reason why I can't get onboard with this is because this would mean we have been lied to if He can return today even. This would mean numerous prophecies never get fulfulled, thus making these prophecies false prophecies.

Some would have us believe, especially some of these Amills you bring up here, plus Preterists as well, that there are no prophecies still needing to be fulfilled before Christ can return. Interestingly, this apparently doesn't include PostMills being among these insisting no prophecies need to be fulfilled before Christ can return, which then means according to these insisting this, nothing is preventing Him from returning even today or even tommorrow. But even though PostMills are apparently not among those insisting that, there are also Premills who are not among those insisting that as well. So why should anyone choose PostMill over Premill when your post alone shows how unrealistic it is that PostMill can be the correct position?

Jeffwhosoever · Jun 29, 2022

rwb said:
How has the Gospel failed exactly? The Gospel is being proclaimed unto all the earth through the universal church. It is for this reason Christ declares: Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Would not the only reason you think the Gospel in the hands of man has failed be through the gates of hell (Satan) being more powerful than the church that is sent out in the power of the Holy Spirit?

The Gospel has not and is not failing. The church through the power of God and according to His grace is triumphant yesterday, today and tomorrow, because the gates of hell cannot prevent the message of the Gospel from accomplishing the purpose for which it has been sent through the militant, and triumphant Church!

I never said the Gospel was failing. I said man is failing the Gospel, as he has done since the beginning.

Jeffwhosoever · Jun 29, 2022

Hammster said:
I guess my first response is, should we have as our authority what you see, or what scripture teaches?

Scripture of course comes first but its not Scripture that we debate but the interpretation of that Scripture, and such interpretation necessarily involves history. Preterists use the account of Josephus to establish their claim that AD 70 fulfilled the Olivet Discourse and Revelations 1-20 or 21. Historicists use the fall of the Roman empire in their interpretation of Scripture. Futurists do the same, except we believe of course that complete fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Revelation 4-22 occur in a future time, which will then be history.

rwb · Jun 29, 2022

Jeffwhosoever said:
I never said the Gospel was failing. I said man is failing the Gospel, as he has done since the beginning.

No Jeff, man is not failing the Gospel. How could man be failing since taking the Gospel unto all the earth through the church (mankind) is ordained by God? The proclamation of the Gospel has, is and will continue to build the Kingdom as the church takes it unto all the earth, and the Kingdom of heaven is being built and will be complete.

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