WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

Ceallaigh

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It looks like the Eastern Orthodox version of the creed, which differs only in that it lacks the filioque, and which can be found in A Psalter for Prayer, published by the monks at Holy Trinity Jordanville, also precludes Annhilationism:

“For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.”

I don't see how that precludes annhilationism. The first group get eternal life, the other group don't.

Although rather than say annhilation I think conditional immortality would be more accurate. Group A receives immortality. Group B doesn't.
 
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Clare73

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Indeed, specifically, note Verse 41 (from the 1929 Scottish Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, which provides handy-dandy versification) @Jipsah

WHOSOEVER would be saved needeth before all things to hold fast the Catholic Faith.
2 Which Faith except a man keep whole and undefiled : without doubt he will perish eternally.

NOW the Catholic Faith is this : that we worship one God in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity;
4 Neither confusing the Persons : nor dividing the Substance.
5 For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son : another of the Holy Ghost;
6 But the Godhead of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one : the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
7 Such as the Father is, such is the Son : and such is the holy Ghost;
8 The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated the Holy Ghost uncreated;
9 The Father infinite, the Son infinite : the Holy Ghost infinite;
10 The Father eternal, the Son eternal : the Holy Ghost eternal;
11 And yet there are not three eternals : but one eternal;
12 As also there are not three uncreated, nor three infinites : but one infinite, and one uncreated.
13 So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty : the Holy Ghost almighty;
14 And yet there are not three almighties : but one almighty.
15 So the Father is God, the Son God : the Holy Ghost God;
16 And yet there are not three Gods : but one God.
17 So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord : the Holy Ghost Lord;
18 And yet there are not three Lords : but one Lord.
19 For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity : to confess each Person by himself to be both God and Lord;
20 So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to speak of three Gods or three Lords.
21 The Father is made of none : nor created, nor begotten.
22 The Son is of the Father alone not made, nor created, but begotten.
23 The Holy Ghost is of the Father and the Son not made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24 There is therefore one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons : one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
25 And in this Trinity there is no before or after : no greater or less;
26 But all three Persons are CO-eternal together : and co-equal.
27 So that in all ways, as is aforesaid : both the Trinity is to be worshipped in Unity, and the Unity in Trinity.
28 He therefore that would be saved let him thus think of the Trinity.

FURTHERMORE it is necessary to eternal salvation : that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30 Now the right Faith is that we believe and confess : that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and Man.
31 He is God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds : and he is Man, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world;
32 Perfect God : perfect Man, of reasoning soul and human flesh subsisting;
33 Equal to the Father as touching his Godhead : less than the Father as touching his Manhood.
34 Who although lie be God and Man : yet he is not two, but is one Christ;
35 One, however, not by conversion of Godhead into flesh : but by taking Manhood into God;
36 One altogether : not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person.
37 For as reasoning soul and flesh is one man so God and Man is one Christ;
38 Who suffered for our salvation : descended into hell, rose again from the dead;
39 Ascended into heaven, sat down at the right hand of the Father : from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
40 At whose coming all men must rise again with their bodies : and shall give account for their own deeds.
41 And they that have done evil will go into eternal fire and they that have done good into life eternal.

THIS is the Catholic Faith : which except a man do faithfully and stedfastly believe, he cannot be saved.
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son : and to the Holy Ghost;
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be : world without end. Amen.
Thank God for the Creeds!
 
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There is actually some asymmetry in 41. But as far as I know this creed has no real authority. I could just as well cite a recent creed from three PCUSA.

If we take a look at the actual evidence, I think you will agree that Quincunque Vult, also known as the Athanasian Creed, has rather more authority than any recent creed when viewed from an ecumenical perspective; indeed, in terms of importance it is rivaled only by the Apostles’ Creed and exceeded only by the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381, more commonly referred to as the Nicene Creed.

It has authority in the Roman Catholic Church and in the Church of England and most of the Anglican Communion, as well as the Anglican Church in North America (but historically not the Episcopal Church*) and in most Lutheran churches, and is also traditionally included in Greek Orthodox Horologia (service books containing the ordinary, that is to say, the invariable portions, of the Divine Office, and in Russian / Ukrainian Psalters (on which A Psalter for Prayer is based, although the actual Psalter is the Jordanville Psalter, which is the Coverdale Psalter corrected against the Septuagint).

Liturgically, Quincunque Vult is most frequently used on Trinity Sunday, in Lutheran, Anglican and traditional Latin Rite Roman Catholic liturgies, and is also recited on the third Sunday of the month by members of the Roman Catholic religious order Opus Dei, among other uses. It also historically was recited during Prime, a use which continued until the Renaissance.

Additionally, as far as authority is concerned, Quincunque Vult is commended in the Augsburg Confession, the Formula of Concord, the Second Helvetic Confession, the Belgic Confession, the Bohemian Confession and the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion (where it is enumerated as one of the three official creeds in Article VIII.

Indeed, because it is included for catechtical purposes in Eastern Orthodox prayer books, we can say that Quincunque Vult is actually more widely accepted than the Apostles’ Creed, which is only used in the Western Church, where the liturgiological consensus indicates it was derived from a third century Baptismal liturgy (this explains why as a Creed it is lacking in features the Nicene Creed and Quincunque Vult have, such as a firm and obvious refutation of Arianism, although to its credit, the Apostles’ Creed does contain a confession of belief in the Harrowing of Hell, although unfortunately this is not explicit enough, leading to some misinterpretation, and some Protestant denominations deleted that clause, although fortunately not the majority of Anglican churches, thanks to Article III of the Articles of Religion.**

Suffice it to say, by virtue of its broad acceptance, including its liturgical use among the Roman Catholics, in almost every province of the Anglican Communion, and in the Lutheran churches, and Eastern Orthodox significant authority, arguably than the
There is actually some asymmetry in 41. But as far as I know this creed has no real authority. I could just as well cite a recent creed from three PCUSA.

It has authority in the Roman Catholic Church and in the Church of England and most of the Anglican Communion, as well as the Anglican Church in North America (but historically not the Episcopal Church*) and in most Lutheran churches, and is also traditionally included in Greek Orthodox Horologia (service books containing the ordinary, that is to say, the invariable portions, of the Divine Office, and in Russian / Ukrainian Psalters (on which A Psalter for Prayer is based, although the actual Psalter is the Jordanville Psalter, which is the Coverdale Psalter corrected against the Septuagint).

Liturgically, Quincunque Vult is most frequently used on Trinity Sunday, in Lutheran, Anglican and traditional Latin Rite Roman Catholic liturgies, and is also recited on the third Sunday of the month by members of the Roman Catholic religious order Opus Dei, among other uses. It also historically was recited during Prime, a use which continued until the Renaissance.

Additionally, as far as authority is concerned, Quincunque Vult is commended in the Augsburg Confession, the Formula of Concord, the Second Helvetic Confession, the Belgic Confession, the Bohemian Confession and the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion (where it is enumerated as one of the three official creeds in Article VIII.

Indeed, because it is included for catechtical purposes in Eastern Orthodox prayer books, we can say that Quincunque Vult is actually more widely accepted than the Apostles’ Creed, which is only used in the Western Church, where the liturgiological consensus indicates it was derived from a third century Baptismal liturgy (this explains why as a Creed it is lacking in features the Nicene Creed and Quincunque Vult have, such as a firm and obvious refutation of Arianism, although to its credit, the Apostles’ Creed does contain a confession of belief in the Harrowing of Hell, although unfortunately this is not explicit enough, leading to some misinterpretation, and some Protestant denominations deleted that clause, although fortunately not the majority of Anglican churches, thanks to Article III of the Articles of Religion.**

Suffice it to say, by virtue of its broad acceptance, including its liturgical use among the Roman Catholics, in almost every province of the Anglican Communion, and in the Lutheran churches, its inclusion in most of the great historic Protestant confessions of faith, and its catechetical use in Eastern Orthodox prayer books and service books, this creed possesses significant authority, arguably more than the Apostles’ Creed in terms of ecumenical scope.

In contrast, the recent confessions of faith found in The Book of Confessions (of the PCUSA), most specifically “A Brief Confession of Faith” (also included in the 2009 hymnal Glory to God), which is not, as the name would suggest, a shining example of brevity compared to the three generally accepted creeds (although it is brief compared to the Westminster Confession of Faith and other Reformed Confessional documents), is not recognized by the Anglican Communion, nor the Eastern Orthodox, nor the Roman Catholic Church, nor the traditional Lutheran denominations, all of which do recognize Quincunque Vult and all of which, except the Orthodox***, use it at a minimum on Trinity Sunday.

There is one other problem that seriously impacts the legitimacy of all recent creeds, that being the canons of the Council of Ephesus and the Council of Chalcedon, which specifically prohibit modifying the Creed or composing a new Creed. This obviously does not apply to the Apostles Creed, and since the consensus patrum based on surviving documents is that Quincunque Vult was written as a proof of Orthodoxy to the Bishop of Rome by St. Athanasius while in exile (a story which recent scholarship indicates is inaccurate, in particular given that the original text appears to have been written in Latin, whereas St. Athanasius was a native Greek speaker), it seems reasonable to say that these two creeds were effectively grandfathered in and approved for secondary use in the Western Church, the Apostles’ Creed being used mainly in the Divine Office and in Baptism, and Quincunque Vult on Trinity Sunday (and historically also at Prime, and on nineteen other Sundays throughout the year, according to the Book of Common Prayer; this was later curtailed).

They do not prohibit composing new hymns of a creedal nature, which is why we benefit from such classics as Ho Monogenes (Only Begotten Son) by St. Severus of Antioch, which opens the Syriac Orthodox Eucharistic liturgy, is prominently featured in the Coptic Orthodox services for Holy Week, and is also included, thanks to Emperor Justinian, in the Second Antiphon of the Byzantine Rite/Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and likewise in the Armenian liturgy (whose liturgy was, starting around the year 1,000, subject to heavy Byzantine and Latin influence and thus at a certain point adopted the Byzantine Rite synaxis, also known as the Liturgy of the Word or the Liturgy of the Catechumens).

* I don’t believe it was even printed in the Protestant Episcopal / ECUSA Book of Common Prayer until the 1979 edition, when it was included in a new section of Historical Documents along with the 39 Articles, which were deprecated in the Episcopal Church by that time.

** As @Paidiske can attest, I have somewhat of a love/hate relationship with the 39 Articles of Religion, because on the one hand they keep Anglican churches within certain parameters, and the more expressly Protestant aspects of them were, through some logical and semantic gymnastics, somewhat mitigated by the Tractarians at Oxford in the 19th century, but on the other hand, I am glad that they are not used by either the Episcopal Church or the bulk of the Anglo Catholic Continuing Anglican jurisdictions in the US (of which ACNA is not a member; interestingly, in Las Vegas at least, the Episcopalians and St. George Anglican Church, a member of the Anglican Province of Christ the King have an extremely friendly working relationship).

*** It is possible that Quincunque Vult either is or could be sung as a canticle in Western Rite Orthodoxy, perhaps on Pentecost Sunday, which is the main Trinitarian feast in Eastern Orthodoxy, but it would never be used in lieu of the Nicene Creed.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't see how that precludes annhilationism. The first group get eternal life, the other group don't.

Although rather than say annhilation I think conditional immortality would be more accurate. Group A receives immortality. Group B doesn't.

The key word here is “everlasting fire.” Annihilation is not everlasting, rather, it is instantaneous total destruction. Interestingly, we do not appear to have in physics actual annihilation according to the traditional meaning of the word (which means reduced to nothing); we say that when a particle and an antiparticle collide, they annihilate each other, but what happens is 100% of the mass of the particle is converted into energy (primarily into high energy photons in the gamma ray spectrum). Consequently for purposes of physics annihilation is defined as the conversion of a (presumably subatomic) particle into radiant energy.
 
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The Liturgist

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My question is how 2 and 41 coinside as far as being tormented day and night for ever and ever (Rev 20:10)?

2 Which Faith except a man keep whole and undefiled : without doubt will perish eternally.

41 And they that have done evil will go into eternal fire and they that have done good into life eternal.

So on this point, it is important to understand that the early church fathers, who did write Quincunque Vult, based on the words of our Lord, conceived of damnation as everlasting death (“for their worm dieth not”). None of the early church fathers who were involved in the composition of the Nicene Creed, or Quincunque Vult, or the Apostles’ Creed, or any of the great Ecumenical Councils which defined the basics of the Christian faith subscribed to annhilationism.

Some of them did however believe in apokatastasis, such as St. Gregory of Nyssa, one of the Cappodacians along with St. Basil the Great and St. Gregory Nazianzus, and a few were universalists, such as Origen, although universalism would later be anathematized in the Chalcedonian church at the Fifth Ecumenical Council. In the Assyrian Church of the East however, a form of it, a doctrine of temporary torment, persisted for many centuries, and is reflected in The Book of the Bee, an interesting theological history of the world, including a projected history of the future, written in 1222 by Mar Shlemon of Akhat, Bishop of Prath Maishan (now known as Basra). The book is particularly interesting having been written less than a century after the genocide conducted by the evil Muslim warlord Tamerlane killed off the vast majority of the Church of the East, exterminating the Christian populations in China, Tibet, Mongolia, Central Asia, Yemen, basically, everywhere except India and the Fertile Crescent of Mesopotamia, primarily in modern day Iraq (with small populations in Eastern Syria and southern Persia). One would expect after such a genocide a bishop of what had previously been the largest church in the world by geographic size, and possibly by membership, might be more open to the idea of eternal hellfire, but Mar Shlemon (an Aramaic form of Solomon) was unmoved from his traditional faith. This might be of some interest to my friend @Saint Steven

Later on, the theology of the Assyrian church became more in line with that of other churches in terms of eschatology, although that said, given the recent popularity of universalism in Eastern Orthodoxy spearheaded by figures such as Dr. David Bentley Hart, and given the close dialogue between the four Eastern churches these days, I would not be surprised to find a priest in either the Assyrian Church of the East or the Ancient Church of the East* espousing universalism.

*The Ancient Church of the East separated from the Assyrian Church of the East in the 1960s after several bishops discovered that the hereditary manner in which the Catholicos was appointed was a violation of ancient canon law; later, the last of the hereditary Catholicoi was assasinated in 1974 following certain severe controversies, and Mar Dinkha IV became Catholicos of the Assyrian Church of the East and set about rectifying several of the problems which led to the Ancient Church of the East breaking away. Mar Dinkha IV reposed in 2014, and Mar Addai II Gewargis, the Catholicos of the Ancient Church of the East, reposed earlier this year. The two churches have been working towards reunification.
 
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Ceallaigh

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The key word here is “everlasting fire.” Annihilation is not everlasting, rather, it is instantaneous total destruction. Interestingly, we do not appear to have in physics actual annihilation according to the traditional meaning of the word (which means reduced to nothing); we say that when a particle and an antiparticle collide, they annihilate each other, but what happens is 100% of the mass of the particle is converted into energy (primarily into high energy photons in the gamma ray spectrum). Consequently for purposes of physics annihilation is defined as the conversion of a (presumably subatomic) particle into radiant energy.

Lets look at number 2:

"Which Faith except a man keep whole and undefiled : without doubt will perish eternally."

If annihilation isn't everlasting, what does perish eternally mean?
 
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The Liturgist

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Note by the way I do not believe in Universalism, although I pray as few people as possible are damned. My reading of the early church fathers, contemporary Eastern Orthodox theologians, and other important theologians of recent years, along with my own experience, suggests that some people are just so filled with evil and hate that the presence of God, as the early church fathers suggest, will be a torture to them, and in this life, we have to learn to embrace Christian love and decency so that in the Eschaton we can be with God and experience His presence as infinite love.

I also love what CS Lewis wrote, “The gates of Hell are locked on the inside.” It seems like some people just want to damn themselves tragically, as a result of becoming slaves to the passions and falling under demonic delusion.
 
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Lets look at number 2:

"Which Faith except a man keep whole and undefiled : without doubt will perish eternally."

If annihilation isn't everlasting, what does perish eternally mean?

It means that they are literally dying, for all eternity grasped by the self-inflicted pains of death, but with no place for their soul to escape to.

And again, it must be stressed, Annihilationist was barely a thing in the Early Church. To put things in perspective as to how fringe a point of view it actually was, for the period of time between the birth of Christ and the year 1800 I am aware of exactly one scholar of theology who held an explicitly Annihilationist perspective, that being the Numidian rhetorician Arnobius of Sicca Veneria (now located in modern day Tunisia), most noted for courageously writing polemics against Paganism during the height of the Diocletian persecution.

Арнобий_Старший_-Arnobius_of_Sicca.jpg

Despite his knowledge of the various foibles of classical Paganism, Arnobius was not, however, well-catechized in the Christian religion, displaying in his writing only a minimal familiarity with the Gospels and failing to demonstrate any knowledge of the Old Testament. Furthermore, his understanding of Christian theology itself appears to have either been inadvertantly Gnostic in many respects, or else the result of Gnostic influence. For example, he did not believe that the human soul was created by God, but rather was the result of a cosmic accident, a recurring theme in the various Gnostic cults on the fringes of Christianity.

One would assume this is a major reason why he was not glorified as a saint, although he was not considered a heretic or schismatic. Arnobius reposed in the peace of the Church in 330 Anno Domini. I do hope at some point to acquire a copy of his polemics against the different Pagan religions, as it sounds like it would go well with my existing works on heretical sects by Saints Irenaeus, Epiphanius and John of Damascus.

According to St. Jerome, Lactantius (a contemporary of Arnobius who reposed five years earlier) was his protege; in the late 5th century, Pope Gelasius anathematized tne writings of Lactantius as heretical, although many of them survived and they became immensely popular among Renaissance humanists, who dubbed Lactantius “the Christian Cicero.” I generally dislike Renaissance humanists, with the very limited exception of Erasmus, and consequently I find the popularity of his work among that crowd as a possible validation for the decision of Pope Gelasius, although in all fairness to Lactantius I have not personally read his work, so I shall reserve my opinion until such time as the opportunity presents itself.

I would also note Lactantius is not known to have been an Annihilationist; in the early church this doctrine seems to really have been specific to Arnobius. Virtually everyone else believed the standard eschatology of Heaven and Hell, or a modified form where Hell was temporary and the eschaton involved Apokatastasis (the renewal of all things), or was else a Universalist.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I think it comes down to what is being destroyed. I see it as the soul being destroyed not the spirit. No place that I have seen says the spirit is destroyed. Then we have to ask what is the soul. I see the soul as what we have made of ourselves our life what we have created. That is why Jesus said if you want to save your life you must lose it, we die to self and live to God our lives are a sacrifice to God a living sacrifice. But if we try to hold onto our lives we lose it , it will be destroyed. That’s why scripture tells us God can divide the soul from the spirit. Those who live their lives for themselves lose their soul but not the spirit.

Thanks for sharing your view Jeff. You might find looking up the Hebrew and Greek meanings of soul and Spirit interesting. A soul unlike most peoples understanding comes from the Hebrews word נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh | H5315) and means a living breathing creature including animals). It's origin from Genesis 2:7 [7], And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (Spirit); and man became a living soul. While the use of the word "Spirit" Genesis 2:7 breath of life נְשָׁמָה (nᵉshâmâh | H5397) means a puff, i.e. wind, or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal. If you apply the actual Hebrew meaning of the words here for spirit or soul being destroyed it means a living breathing creature that will no longer exist and live (no eternal life).

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It’s not that UR is not Biblical

Yes Universalism is not biblical. My emphasis here of course is to the teachings that all the unrepentant unbelieving wicked will be saved. Other aspects that eternal burning hell I believe is also unbiblical and a false teachings handed down from the Roman Catholic Church that is not supported in the scriptures.
 
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Thanks for sharing your view Jeff. You might find looking up the Hebrew and Greek meanings of soul and Spirit interesting. A soul unlike most peoples understanding comes from the Hebrews word נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh | H5315) and means a living breathing creature including animals). It's origin from Genesis 2:7 [7], And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (Spirit); and man became a living soul. While the use of the word "Spirit" Genesis 2:7 breath of life נְשָׁמָה (nᵉshâmâh | H5397) means a puff, i.e. wind, or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal. If you apply the actual Hebrew meaning of the words here for spirit or soul being destroyed it means a living breathing creature that will no longer exist and live (no eternal life).

Take Care.
Are you saying that soul and spirit are the same thing? I am confused.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Yes Universalism is not biblical. My emphasis here of course is to the teachings that all the unrepentant unbelieving wicked will be saved. Other aspects that eternal burning hell I believe is also unbiblical and a false teachings handed down from the Roman Catholic Church that is not supported in the scriptures.
I do not believe that any unrepentant unbelieving wicked will be saved either, the difference is that I see God pursuing each individual even after the mortal body dies. Rom8:28 says that even death can’t separate us from the love of Gods. That’s the only way that scripture can be complete. Phil 2:10-11 Every knee should bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth, that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father. Are there living people under the earth? So you see when God said it’s His will that all should live and none parish 2Pet 3:9 So in the end of the ages God will be all in all1Cor 15
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord said: Thanks for sharing your view Jeff. You might find looking up the Hebrew and Greek meanings of soul and Spirit interesting. A soul unlike most peoples understanding comes from the Hebrews word נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh | H5315) and means a living breathing creature including animals). It's origin from Genesis 2:7 [7], And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (Spirit); and man became a living soul. While the use of the word "Spirit" Genesis 2:7 breath of life נְשָׁמָה (nᵉshâmâh | H5397) means a puff, i.e. wind, or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal. If you apply the actual Hebrew meaning of the words here for spirit or soul being destroyed it means a living breathing creature that will no longer exist and live (no eternal life).
Your response here.
Are you saying that soul and spirit are the same thing? I am confused.
Hi Jeff, I re-posted my earlier response with the Hebrew words meanings and the creation text they come from in Genesis 2:7 above your post here. Take some time to re-read it. Simply though no. Soul and Spirit are not the same but related. Spirit is the breath of life that come from God. A soul is the living breathing creature after the breath of life has been breathed into it by God.

God bless.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord said: Yes Universalism is not biblical. My emphasis here of course is to the teachings that all the unrepentant unbelieving wicked will be saved. Other aspects that eternal burning hell I believe is also unbiblical and a false teachings handed down from the Roman Catholic Church that is not supported in the scriptures.
Your response here...
I do not believe that any unrepentant unbelieving wicked will be saved either
That is good Jeff. This is one of the main teachings of Universalism which to me is a repeat of the first lie told to Eve in the Garden of Eden from the serpent who said you can disobey Gods' Word and not surely die in Genesis 3:1-5.
the difference is that I see God pursuing each individual even after the mortal body dies. Rom8:28 says that even death can’t separate us from the love of Gods. That’s the only way that scripture can be complete.
Kind of but not quite. The context to Romans 8:28 and who these scriptures are applied to are to those who are believers and followers of Christ who have received Gods' forgiveness of sins (see Romans 8:1-4; 13) who are walking in newness of life in God's Spirit of faith and obedience to Gods' Word. They are not talking to someone that does not believe and follow what Gods Word says. Therefore conditional promises. So death will not separate God from those who are believing and following what Gods' Word says. What Jesus says in John 3:36 is a good example of what these scriptures are talking about where Jesus says; [36], He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.
Phil 2:10-11 Every knee should bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth, that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father. Are there living people under the earth? So you see when God said it’s His will that all should live and none parish 2Pet 3:9 So in the end of the ages God will be all in all1Cor 15
2 Peter 3:9 says that [9], The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God therefore saying he is not willing that anyone should perish but the condition here is on repentance. If you notice the context here 2 Peter 3:3-8 Peter is talking about the scoffers walking after their own lusts saying where is the sign of Christs coming? He goes on to say they are those who are willingly ignorant of what happened to the wicked when all the world perished from the judgements of God through the flood. So the scripture here is not saying that the wicked will not perish but simply it is not Gods' will that anyone should perish but that everyone should believe Gods Word and be saved through faith and repentance from sin.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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* * * Other aspects that eternal burning hell I believe is also unbiblical and a false teachings handed down from the Roman Catholic Church that is not supported in the scriptures.
A lot of false accusations are often hurled at the RCC. There was no "Roman Catholic Church" with a pope in Rome until 1075 when Gregory VII unilaterally appointed himself the highest authority in the church by issuing 27 papal dictates. Until that time all church bishops held equal authority.
The Dictates of the Pope
My ¢¢ Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]
Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the fifteen [15] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Your response here...

That is good Jeff. This is one of the main teachings of Universalism which to me is a repeat of the first lie told to Eve in the Garden of Eden from the serpent who said you can disobey Gods' Word and not surely die in Genesis 3:1-5.

Kind of but not quite. The context to Romans 8:28 and who these scriptures are applied to are to those who are believers and followers of Christ who have received Gods' forgiveness of sins (see Romans 8:1-4; 13) who are walking in newness of life in God's Spirit of faith and obedience to Gods' Word. They are not talking to someone that does not believe and follow what Gods Word says. Therefore conditional promises. So death will not separate God from those who are believing and following what Gods' Word says. What Jesus says in John 3:36 is a good example of what these scriptures are talking about where Jesus says; [36], He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

2 Peter 3:9 says that [9], The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God therefore saying he is not willing that anyone should perish but the condition here is on repentance. If you notice the context here 2 Peter 3:3-8 Peter is talking about the scoffers walking after their own lusts saying where is the sign of Christs coming? He goes on to say they are those who are willingly ignorant of what happened to the wicked when all the world perished from the judgements of God through the flood. So the scripture here is not saying that the wicked will not perish but simply it is not Gods' will that anyone should perish but that everyone should believe Gods Word and be saved through faith and repentance from sin.

Hope this is helpful.
So are you saying that God does not what he wills? IS 46:10 All my counsel, it shall be confirmed and all my desire shall I do. /Ps 115:3 our God is in the heavens all that he desires, He will do. /Ps 135:6 /IS 14:24 assuredly, just as I have meant, so it will come to be, and just as I have counseled that shall be confirmed.It seems to me that God gets what he wants call it His desire or His will they are the same God will get what he wants. And He is clear about what he wants He wants all His creation and He has a plan(Jesus) and has the power to do it even when so many say He can’t pull it off , sin is so much more powerful than God that’s why he only gets a fraction of what He paid for. But 1Cor15 says in the end God will be all in all. God 100% satan 0%
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord said: The context to Romans 8:28 and who these scriptures are applied to are to those who are believers and followers of Christ who have received Gods' forgiveness of sins (see Romans 8:1-4; 13) who are walking in newness of life in God's Spirit of faith and obedience to Gods' Word. They are not talking to someone that does not believe and follow what Gods Word says. Therefore conditional promises. So death will not separate God from those who are believing and following what Gods' Word says. What Jesus says in John 3:36 is a good example of what these scriptures are talking about where Jesus says; [36], He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him. 2 Peter 3:9 says that [9], The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God therefore saying he is not willing that anyone should perish but the condition here is on repentance. If you notice the context here 2 Peter 3:3-8 Peter is talking about the scoffers walking after their own lusts saying where is the sign of Christs coming? He goes on to say they are those who are willingly ignorant of what happened to the wicked when all the world perished from the judgements of God through the flood. So the scripture here is not saying that the wicked will not perish but simply it is not Gods' will that anyone should perish but that everyone should believe Gods Word and be saved through faith and repentance from sin.
Your response here.
So are you saying that God does not what he wills? IS 46:10 All my counsel, it shall be confirmed and all my desire shall I do. /Ps 115:3 our God is in the heavens all that he desires, He will do. /Ps 135:6 /IS 14:24 assuredly, just as I have meant, so it will come to be, and just as I have counseled that shall be confirmed.It seems to me that God gets what he wants call it His desire or His will they are the same God will get what he wants. And He is clear about what he wants He wants all His creation and He has a plan(Jesus) and has the power to do it even when so many say He can’t pull it off , sin is so much more powerful than God that’s why he only gets a fraction of what He paid for. But 1Cor15 says in the end God will be all in all. God 100% satan 0%
Of course God does what he wills. His will is that everyone should be saved by coming to repentance and believing His Word just like the scriptures say in the post you are quoting from. Gods salvation is conditional on us believing and following what Gods' Word says according to the scriptures.

Take Care.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Your response here...

That is good Jeff. This is one of the main teachings of Universalism which to me is a repeat of the first lie told to Eve in the Garden of Eden from the serpent who said you can disobey Gods' Word and not surely die in Genesis 3:1-5.

Kind of but not quite. The context to Romans 8:28 and who these scriptures are applied to are to those who are believers and followers of Christ who have received Gods' forgiveness of sins (see Romans 8:1-4; 13) who are walking in newness of life in God's Spirit of faith and obedience to Gods' Word. They are not talking to someone that does not believe and follow what Gods Word says. Therefore conditional promises. So death will not separate God from those who are believing and following what Gods' Word says. What Jesus says in John 3:36 is a good example of what these scriptures are talking about where Jesus says; [36], He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

2 Peter 3:9 says that [9], The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God therefore saying he is not willing that anyone should perish but the condition here is on repentance. If you notice the context here 2 Peter 3:3-8 Peter is talking about the scoffers walking after their own lusts saying where is the sign of Christs coming? He goes on to say they are those who are willingly ignorant of what happened to the wicked when all the world perished from the judgements of God through the flood. So the scripture here is not saying that the wicked will not perish but simply it is not Gods' will that anyone should perish but that everyone should believe Gods Word and be saved through faith and repentance from sin.

Hope this is helpful.
You need to study up on Christian Universal Redemption. It teaches that all must accept Jesus to get to the Father. The biggest difference is that we don’t believe that can only be done while the mortal body is alive, God pursue us (our true self not just a mortal body) after this body dies. That the lake of fire is a refinery not a permanent destination. It seems a lot of people make the assumption that UR teaching is that it doesn’t matter what you do you get a second chance, but the lake of fire will be awful and only God knows how long it will be so we don’t want anyone to go there.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Your response here.

Of course God does what he wills. His will is that everyone should be saved by coming to repentance and believing His Word just like the scriptures say in the post you are quoting from. Gods salvation is conditional on us believing and following what Gods' Word says according to the scriptures.

Take Care.
Yes it is conditional on us believing but where in scripture does it say that can only be done while in the mortal body? The standard answer is Heb 9:27 it is appointed for man once to die then the judgement. But this doesn’t mean that the punishment is eternal but the judgement is, the judgement is did you follow me in the mortal body or not that is eternal no second chance. The punishment lake of fire till one repents. This is the only way God gets what he wills, He will get what He paid for.
 
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A lot of false accusations are often hurled at the RCC.
I am not sure what false accusations you are talking about here so cannot really comment on any.
There was no "Roman Catholic Church" with a pope in Rome until 1075 when Gregory VII unilaterally appointed himself the highest authority in the church by issuing 27 papal dictates. Until that time all church bishops held equal authority.
You might want to consider this Chronological list of Popes linked that disagree with you here from the first to the twenty first century. Of course I do not believe Peter was
included here but that is another story.
Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted. It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.
[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​
Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the fifteen [15] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.
”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted
in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
The above quotes you have provided are only different views that certain Jewish factions had and were not representative of all Jewish belief. So you have only provided three quotes of man outside of the scriptures that were never a universal view of the Jewish people. The early views of Hell in Judaism is that Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehinnom. The teachings of Judaism were that Gehinnom is not hell as we know it today, but originally the grave. The doctrine of Hell as we know it today has it's origins from paganism even before any of the quotes you provided above from different Jewish factions.

Hell - Wikipedia

Take Care.
 
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