TIME TO UNLEARN THE LIES ABOUT GOD’S WORD

expos4ever · May 13, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
and trying to apply an interpretation to fit a teaching of lawlessness (without law) is not biblical or supported in the scriptures.

Very ironic, of course. I take Paul at his word, you radically edit verse 6 to make it fit your agenda.

LoveGodsWord said:
There is no where in the entire bible that teaches that God's 10 commandments are abolished. It is a teaching that has Paul in contradiction with Paul when he says faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods' law in Romans 3:31

It is indeed true that Romans 7:6 appears to conflict with Romans 3:31. I have argued elsewhere that when Paul writes in 3:31 that we "establish" or "uphold" the Law, it is at least plausible that he is saying that he "establishes" that the Law is a good thing to be revered or respected (even if retired). This possible reading makes sense given the context where it looks like Paul has just declared the Law to be irrelevant to justification.

Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law

No, saith Paul - we "establish" the Law, recognizing it key role, now completed, in God's Plan.

Here is the key point: I respect the semantic range (the set of permissible meanings) of the concept "to establish" - one can use the word "establish" to cement the goodness of the reputation of something even if that something is in past: It is conceivable that some historian could write this: In this book, I establish that, although bloody, the American Revolution was a good thing.

You, by contrast, take far too many liberties with 7:6 which, I shall remind readers, says this:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Whether intentional or not, you appear to play a trick on the reader - you tell them something that is indeed true, and indeed justifiable from context: that we have been released sin and death. But, and this is key, this being all true in no wise means that Paul does not also believe that we have been released from the Law.

To deal with the actual words of verse 6, you are forced to do the following:

1. Restrict the sense of what it means to be "released" from the Law - you need to say that the only thing that has happened is that we have been released from the role of the Law in judging us. How do you defend such an unusual move. To be "released from a law" reads most naturally as a declaration that we have been released from the need to follow that law.

2. Redefine the concept of "not serving according to the letter" as "not being judged by the letter". That is a bridge too far. Let's return to the concept of semantic range - there is no way one can take the concept of "not serving according to the law" and morph it into "not being judged according to the law" without committing an egregious act of violence against the meaning of the verb "to serve".

guevaraj · May 13, 2022

expos4ever said:
Very ironic, of course. I take Paul at his word, you radically edit verse 6 to make it fit your agenda.

Brother, happy Sabbath! Paul does not say the opposite of what Jesus says when we can read it in harmony with Jesus.

“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven! (Matthew 5:17-20 NLT)

expos4ever said:
It is indeed true that Romans 7:6 appears to conflict with Romans 3:31. I have argued elsewhere that when Paul writes in 3:31 that we "establish" or "uphold" the Law, it is at least plausible that he is saying that he "establishes" that the Law is a good thing to be revered or respected (even if retired). This possible reading makes sense given the context where it looks like Paul has just declared the Law to be irrelevant to justification.

The law can only condemn a sinner! Jesus can separate a sinner from his sin by allowing him to grow to obey the law through repeated attempts, like a child who learns to walk by getting up through the forgiveness of Jesus as our High Priest until we no longer fall into sin.

expos4ever said:
Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law

In Jesus, we die as the law demands for sin, so that we get another chance to live under Jesus' example when He asks us to follow Him.

expos4ever said:
No, saith Paul - we "establish" the Law, recognizing it key role, now completed, in God's Plan.

The role of the law is never completed in us until we obey, made possible through Jesus as our High Priest. Like a child, we learn to walk by getting up again and again through Jesus' forgiveness until we no longer fall into sin.

expos4ever said:
Here is the key point: I respect the semantic range (the set of permissible meanings) of the concept "to establish" - one can use the word "establish" to cement the goodness of the reputation of something even if that something is in past: It is conceivable that some historian could write this: In this book, I establish that, although bloody, the American Revolution was a good thing. You, by contrast, take far too many liberties with 7:6 which, I shall remind readers, says this:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

We are released from the law's death sentence to a sinner to walk in the newness of Jesus, showing how to live rather than telling us how to live. If love were a circle, Jesus showing us how to live allows us to fill the circle rather than the law telling us where the boundary is on the circle so as to remain in the circle. The law has limitations that Jesus overcame.

expos4ever said:
Whether intentional or not, you appear to play a trick on the reader - you tell them something that is indeed true, and indeed justifiable from context: that we have been released sin and death. But, and this is key, this being all true in no wise means that Paul does not also believe that we have been released from the Law.

We are released from its death sentence through Jesus' forgiveness to get as many chances as we need to obey the law by learning to walk in it, as a child learns to walk by repeatedly getting up until we no longer fall into sin.

expos4ever said:
To deal with the actual words of verse 6, you are forced to do the following: 1. Restrict the sense of what it means to be "released" from the Law - you need to say that the only thing that has happened is that we have been released from the role of the Law in judging us. How do you defend such an unusual move. To be "released from a law" reads most naturally as a declaration that we have been released from the need to follow that law.

The only way to come to that conclusion is because you do not know God and want to be free of Him to walk according to your own will. That is what Satan wants and we know he will lose.

expos4ever said:
2. Redefine the concept of "not serving according to the letter" as "not being judged by the letter". That is a bridge too far. Let's return to the concept of semantic range - there is no way one can take the concept of "not serving according to the law" and morph it into "not being judged according to the law" with committing an egregious act of violence against the meaning of the verb "to serve".

Our righteousness will surpass the righteousness of those before us if we follow Jesus' example above and beyond His obeying the law. The same word translated as commandments is used in both passages.

So now I am giving you a new commandment (entolé): Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. (John 13:34 NLT)

The same word above in the singular for commandment is used below in the plural, showing that this new commandment is an additional commandment to those He has given before.

“If you love me, obey my commandments (entolé). (John 14:15 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

expos4ever · May 13, 2022

guevaraj said:
Brother, happy Sabbath! Paul does not say the opposite of what Jesus says when we can read it in harmony with Jesus.

“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

I have already provided an argument as to why Jesus is not to taken literally here. That argument is here:

Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?.

expos4ever · May 13, 2022

guevaraj said:
The law can only condemn a sinner! Jesus can separate a sinner from his sin by allowing him to grow to obey the law through repeated attempts, like a child who learns to walk by getting up through the forgiveness of Jesus as our High Priest until we no longer fall into sin.

First, you completely evade my argument - a common strategy here.

Second, you very obviously beg the question at issue by simply assuming that we all need the Law to develop. This is just a bald statement, with no evidence to support it. For my part, I will point out what should be obvious - with the indwelling Spirit, why do we need law to grow?

expos4ever · May 13, 2022

guevaraj said:
We are released from the law's death sentence to a sinner to walk in the newness of Jesus,...

But this is not what the text says, it says this:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Please do not evade, please respond to my actual argument, engaging it in its detail:

To deal with the actual words of verse 6, you are forced to do the following:

1. Restrict the sense of what it means to be "released" from the Law - you need to say that the only thing that has happened is that we have been released from the role of the Law in judging us. How do you defend such an unusual move. To be "released from a law" reads most naturally as a declaration that we have been released from the need to follow that law.

2. Redefine the concept of "not serving according to the letter" as "not being judged by the letter". That is a bridge too far. Let's return to the concept of semantic range - there is no way one can take the concept of "not serving according to the law" and morph it into "not being judged according to the law" without committing an egregious act of violence against the meaning of the verb "to serve".

You are simply restating the position that I have critiqued in detail. Please address my argument - simply restating the assertion that I am challenging will convince no one and will seem evasive.

expos4ever · May 13, 2022

guevaraj said:
The only way to come to that conclusion is because you do not know God and want to be free of Him to walk according to your own will. That is what Satan wants and we know he will lose.

Obvious ad hominem.

LoveGodsWord · May 13, 2022

expos4ever said:
Very ironic, of course. I take Paul at his word, you radically edit verse 6 to make it fit your agenda.

It is indeed true that Romans 7:6 appears to conflict with Romans 3:31. I have argued elsewhere that when Paul writes in 3:31 that we "establish" or "uphold" the Law, it is at least plausible that he is saying that he "establishes" that the Law is a good thing to be revered or respected (even if retired). This possible reading makes sense given the context where it looks like Paul has just declared the Law to be irrelevant to justification.

Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law

No, saith Paul - we "establish" the Law, recognizing it key role, now completed, in God's Plan.

Here is the key point: I respect the semantic range (the set of permissible meanings) of the concept "to establish" - one can use the word "establish" to cement the goodness of the reputation of something even if that something is in past: It is conceivable that some historian could write this: In this book, I establish that, although bloody, the American Revolution was a good thing.

You, by contrast, take far too many liberties with 7:6 which, I shall remind readers, says this:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Whether intentional or not, you appear to play a trick on the reader - you tell them something that is indeed true, and indeed justifiable from context: that we have been released sin and death. But, and this is key, this being all true in no wise means that Paul does not also believe that we have been released from the Law.

To deal with the actual words of verse 6, you are forced to do the following:

1. Restrict the sense of what it means to be "released" from the Law - you need to say that the only thing that has happened is that we have been released from the role of the Law in judging us. How do you defend such an unusual move. To be "released from a law" reads most naturally as a declaration that we have been released from the need to follow that law.

2. Redefine the concept of "not serving according to the letter" as "not being judged by the letter". That is a bridge too far. Let's return to the concept of semantic range - there is no way one can take the concept of "not serving according to the law" and morph it into "not being judged according to the law" without committing an egregious act of violence against the meaning of the verb "to serve".

This one is repetition already addressed elsewhere by adding the contexts of the scriptures back that disagree with your claims here. We can have a look at them again if you like. Romans 7:6 has already been addressed with a detailed scripture response in post # 20 linked in this thread that you are yet to address and have simply ignored so I am still awaiting a response from you. The linked post above show that your your taking a single scripture away from it's contexts around Romans 6:1-23; Romans 7:1-25 and Romans 8:1-13 and trying to apply an interpretation to fit a teaching of lawlessness (without law) which is not biblical or supported in the scriptures. There is no where in the entire bible that teaches that God's 10 commandments are abolished. It is a teaching that has Paul in contradiction with Paul when he says faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods' law in Romans 3:31 or that circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God in 1 Corinthians 7:19 or elsewhere when Paul shows that we love our neighbor as ourselves by being obedient to those commandments from Gods' law that show us how we love our fellow man in Romans 13:8-10.

Paul also shows in Romans 8:1-4 that the righteousness (moral right doing - Psalms 119:172) of the law is fulfilled in us as we walk not in the flesh but in Gods' Spirit (see also Galatians 5:16). Paul does not teach a teaching of lawlessness or that Gods' 10 commandments are abolished anywhere in the bible. He teaches they are established by faith and are a part of Gods 'new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. It is Paul not me that says that God's law is holy, just and good in Romans 7:12 and that it is God's law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken that is defined as breaking Gods' law in Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7 and that the purpose of Gods' law is to show us we are all sinners in need of Gods' grace that we can receive through faith as shown in Romans 2:4-29 to Romans 3:1-23 and that faith does not abolish Gods' law, but establishes Gods' law in the lives of all those who believe what Gods' Word says.

Your interpretation of a single scripture in Romans 7:6 taken away from it's context to apply a meaning that Gods 10 commandments have been abolished has Paul in contradiction with Paul and the rest of the bible. Here let's prove this and add all the context back in first by looking at the previous verse your disregarding. We can have a look at the whole chapter if your interpreted and their connection with Romans 6:1-23 through to Romans 7:1-25 and Romans 8:1-13 in another post if your interested that says the same thing that is being shared with you here, but let's simply start with the immediate scripture context your disregarding again if it might be helpful. Romans 7:1-7 is building on what Paul was talking about in Romans 6:1-23 where he contrasts baptism and the death of the old man of sin or dying to our sinful nature and being raised from death and walking in newness of life. Romans 8:1-13 is building on both Romans 6 and Romans 7 contrasting walking in the Spirit and not in the old man of the flesh that has died so that we can be married to another in Christ. This is all context your disregarding that does not agree with your interpretation of Romans 7:6.

Moving on to Romans 3:31 which says; Do we then abolish the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Instead of seeking to try and explain the scriptures away and isolate it from it's context we should read it as it is without it's context.

Let have a look...

ROMANS 3:31

SCRIPTURE CONTEXT AROUND ROMANS 3:31.

Romans 3:9-19 all of us have sinned against and stand guilty before God

Romans 3:20 says that through the law we have a knowledge of sin

Romans 3:21 is continuing on the same thought in context to Romans 3:9-20 and that is all of us have sinned according to the law so what do we do? He says "But now" all you sinners condemned by the law, the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets. That is where the law leads us. According to the scriptures. God's law leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven or justified through faith *Galatians 3:22-25 because we have all sinned and broken the law (see context of Romans 3:9-19). All the law and the prophets pointed to Christ and this is where the law leads us.
God's law shows us that we are all sinners and have sinned against God and none of us are righteous no not one (Romans 3:9-11).

Romans 3:22 Gods law leads us to the righteousness of Christ which is through faith to all those who believe.

Romans 3:23 because all of us have sinned

Romans 3:24 We are justified and given God's forgiveness as a gift of Gods' grace through faith because we have sinned and we cannot save ourselves from our sins.

Romans 3:25 God Grace and salvation is because of God sending His only begotten son to die and pay the penalty for our past sins so that we can receive Gods' forgiveness

Romans 3:26 We receive Gods' forgiveness of sins through faith

Romans 3:27 there is no boasting in faith as forgiveness is a gift of God to sinners who believe

Romans 3:28 Therefore we receive Gods' forgiveness of sins as a gift of God through faith there is nothing we can do to earn it because we have all sinned.

Romans 3:29-30 God forgives all sin from all men

Romans 3:31 Paul asks the question to leave no doubt in case anything thinks that faith abolishes God's law when he says [31], Do we then abolish the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

...............

Note: This is all the scripture, context prior to Romans 3:31 shown by Paul in Romans 3:9-30. Paul continues to disagree with you in the scripture context right through to Romans 3:31 where he says that faith does not abolish God's law like you are teachings. Genuine faith establishes or obeys God's law. Paul is in disagreement with you here as shown in the scripture context your disregarding in your posts once more. "Do we then abolish the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law." - Romans 3:31. Paul is closing with this scripture because he has been emphasizing in Romans 3:20-30 that the purpose of God's law is to give us a knowledge of what sin is and to show us that we are all sinners and if as are all sinners no one can receive their righteousness from obeying Gods' law when we have all sinned. Then goes on to explain that we need to receive Gods' righteousness, forgiveness and justification through faith in God's promises in Christ apart from the law because we have all sinned. Paul then closes so there is no misunderstanding here saying does faith then abolish Gods law? No genuine faith establishes Gods' law in the lives of all those who have genuine faith. Therefore, genuine faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods' law which is what Paul is saying in Romans 13:8-10 in those who are born of God's Spirit to love.

Take Care.

expos4ever · May 13, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
The linked post above show that your your taking a single scripture away from it's contexts around Romans 6:1-23;

How, and please be specific, does anything in Romans 6:1-23 justify changing this:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

into this:

But now we have been released from the judgement of the Law (but still need to follow it), having died to that by which we were bound, so that we ~~serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.~~ serve in newness of the Spirit and still follow the Law.

Note: Telling us true things about what Romans 6:1-23 has to say, but that do not justify the heavy editing you make to 7:6, is entirely irrelevant as any attentive reader will know. Verse 6 exists. It is part of scripture. Its words have meanings. Sure, certain words have a range of possible meanings with context being the arbiter. But that range is limited - as much as I might wish that the word "dog" might really denote "cat", no amount of context can do that. So, the reader will want to know, how does "not serving according to the Law" get morphed into "not being condemned according to the Law"?

Again, I suggest you are trying to have your argument prevail by overwhelming us with irrelevant stuff, true though that stuff may otherwise be.

LoveGodsWord · May 13, 2022

WHAT ABOUT THE LIES THAT NO ONE KNEW GOD'S LAW BEFORE MT SINAI?

According to the scriptures in Genesis before the written Word of God there was the spoken Words of God as shown in the whole book of Genesis that tell us that God's laws were known by those who believed and followed them well before the Exodus and God giving us His written Word in Exodus 20 onward as it is written in Genesis 26:5 [5], Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

.................

GOD'S TEN COMMANDMENTS KNOWN FROM THE BEGINNING

FIRST TABLE: (First four commandments duty towards God; Exodus 20:3-11)

[1] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. [Genesis 3:5] And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; [Genesis 3:17] And I bowed down my head, and worshipped the LORD, and blessed the LORD God of my master Abraham, which had led me in the right way to take my master's brother's daughter unto his son. [Genesis 24:48] Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that [were] with him, Put away the strange gods that [are] among you, and be clean, and change your garments: [Genesis 35:2] And let us arise, and go up to Bethel; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went. [Genesis 35:3] And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which [were] in their hand, and [all their] earrings which [were] in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the oak which [was] by Shechem. [Genesis 35:4]

[2] Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that [were] with him, Put away the strange gods that [are] among you, and be clean, and change your garments: [Genesis 35:2] And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which [were] in their hand, and [all their] earrings which [were] in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the oak which [was] by Shechem. [Genesis 35:4]

[3] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. [Genesis 3:6] And he said, Blessed [be] the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. [Genesis 9:26] And he said, Blessed [be] the LORD God of my master Abraham, who hath not left destitute my master of his mercy and his truth: I [being] in the way, the LORD led me to the house of my master's brethren. [Genesis 24:27] And it was so, when the days of [their] feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings [according] to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. [Job 1:5] Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. [Job 2:9] But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. [Job 2:10] And Pharaoh said, Who [is] the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go. [Exodus 5:2]

[4] And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. [Genesis 2:2] And God blessed the seventh day [now mentioned 3 times], and sanctified it [Qadash, meaning: to consecrate or set aside for holy use or purpose, the "Sabbath was made for man"; see Mark 2:27]: because that in it he had rested from all his work [GOD is the Example; see Hebrews 4:10] which God created and made. [Genesis 2:3] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. [Genesis 26:5] And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens. [Exodus 5:4] And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now [are] many, and ye make them rest [Shabath, same word used in Genesis 2:2-3, meaning: to cease, or keep Sabbath] from their burdens. [Exodus 5:5] And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee. [Exodus 15:26] Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no. [Exodus 16:4] [GOD already has a LAW, and it is not called the “Hebrews Law”, but GOD calls it “MY LAW”] And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. [Exodus 16:23] And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day [is] a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. [Exodus 16:25] Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, [which is] the sabbath [this does not say that the 7th day now becomes the Sabbath, but it says that the 7th day is the Sabbath already, as it always had been], in it there shall be none. [Exodus 16:26] And it came to pass, [that] there went out [some] of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. [Exodus 16:27] And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? [Exodus 16:28] See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. [Exodus 16:29] So the people rested on the seventh day. [Exodus 16:30] [Exodus 16 takes place 2 weeks before Mt. Sinai] And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: [Mark 2:27] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; [2 Peter 2:5] [All of God's commandments are righteousness, see Psalms 119:172; see also that Noah preached against those who continually bought and sold, planted and builded upon God's holy day; Matthew 24:37-39; Luke 17:26-30]

.................

First table completed and to the second table to be continued in the next post...

LoveGodsWord · May 13, 2022

SECOND TABLE: (Second six commandments; duty toward our neighbor - Exodus 20:11-17)

[5] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: [Genesis 2:16] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. [Genesis 2:17] And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. [Genesis 9:22] And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid [it] upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces [were] backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. [Genesis 9:23] And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. [Genesis 9:24] Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to that which I command thee. [Genesis 27:8] And his mother said unto him, Upon me [be] thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me [them]. [Genesis 27:13] Now therefore, my son, obey my voice; and arise, flee thou to Laban my brother to Haran; [Genesis 27:43] Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father. [Genesis 49:2]

[6] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. [Genesis 2:17] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [Genesis 3:1] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [Genesis 3:4] And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. [Genesis 3:6] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return. [Genesis 3:19] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. [Genesis 4:5] And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? [Genesis 4:6] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. [Genesis 4:7] And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. [Genesis 4:8] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. [Genesis 4:10] O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall. [Genesis 49:6]

[7] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. [Genesis 2:24] The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house. [Genesis 12:15] And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife. [Genesis 12:17] And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What [is] this [that] thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she [was] thy wife? [Genesis 12:18] Why saidst thou, She [is] my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take [her], and go thy way. [Genesis 12:19] And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; [Genesis 18:20] But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou [art but] a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she [is] a man's wife. [Genesis 20:3] But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? [Genesis 20:4] Said he not unto me, She [is] my sister? and she, even she herself said, He [is] my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. [Genesis 20:5] And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. [Genesis 20:6] Now therefore restore the man [his] wife; for he [is] a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore [her] not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that [are] thine. [Genesis 20:7] Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done. [Genesis 20:9] For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife. [Genesis 20:18] [There is] none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou [art] his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? [Genesis 39:9] And it came to pass, as she spake to Joseph day by day, that he hearkened not unto her, to lie by her, [or] to be with her. [Genesis 39:10] Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou [it]: he went up to my couch. [Genesis 49:4]

[8] And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. [Genesis 3:6] And Laban went to shear his sheep: and Rachel had stolen the images that [were] her father's. [Genesis 31:19] And now, [though] thou wouldest needs be gone, because thou sore longedst after thy father's house, [yet] wherefore hast thou stolen my gods? [Genesis 31:30] With whomsoever thou findest thy gods, let him not live: before our brethren discern thou what [is] thine with me, and take [it] to thee. For Jacob knew not that Rachel had stolen them. [Genesis 31:32] Now Rachel had taken the images, and put them in the camel's furniture, and sat upon them. And Laban searched all the tent, but found [them] not. [Genesis 31:34] And Jacob was wroth, and chode with Laban: and Jacob answered and said to Laban, What [is] my trespass? what [is] my sin, that thou hast so hotly pursued after me? [Genesis 31:36] Whereas thou hast searched all my stuff, what hast thou found of all thy household stuff? set [it] here before my brethren and thy brethren, that they may judge betwixt us both. [Genesis 31:37] [And] when they were gone out of the city, [and] not [yet] far off, Joseph said unto his steward, Up, follow after the men; and when thou dost overtake them, say unto them, Wherefore have ye rewarded evil for good? [Genesis 44:4] [Is] not this [it] in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing. [Genesis 44:5] And they said unto him, Wherefore saith my lord these words? God forbid that thy servants should do according to this thing: [Genesis 44:7] Behold, the money, which we found in our sacks' mouths, we brought again unto thee out of the land of Canaan: how then should we steal out of thy lord's house silver or gold? [Genesis 44:8] With whomsoever of thy servants it be found, both let him die, and we also will be my lord's bondmen. [Genesis 44:9]

[9] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [Genesis 3:1] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [Genesis 3:4] And the LORD said unto Cain, Where [is] Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: [Am] I my brother's keeper? [Genesis 4:9] My father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing. [Genesis 27:12] And Jacob said unto his father, I [am] Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me. [Genesis 27:19] And he said, [Art] thou my very son Esau? And he said, I [am]. [Genesis 27:24] And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob. [Genesis 27:31]

[10] And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. [Genesis 3:6] And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God [is] not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. [Genesis 20:11] And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying. [Genesis 37:11] Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place [such] over them, [to be] rulers of thousands, [and] rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: [Exodus 18:21] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; [Hebrews 11:25]

..................

All of God's law was known before the written Word was given at Mt Sinai according to the scriptures.

Genesis 26:5 [5], Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Hebrew word for laws is torah which includes Gods laws that give us a knowledge of what sin is as well as God's old covenant laws for remission of sin through animal sacrifices and sin offerings which can also be shown through Genesis which would take a complete new post. All the above scripture are in disagreement with your friends post why you were responding to.

Take Care.

LoveGodsWord · May 13, 2022

GOD'S 10 COMMANDMENTS WHERE IN FORCE BEFORE MT SINAI AND MANKIND KNEW WHAT SIN WAS.

Not only were God's 10 commandments already known as shown from the scriptures in Genesis (See post # 364 linked and post # 365 linked.) They were absolutely in force! This is why they practiced animal sacrifices and sin offering to seek atonement and God's forgiveness for sin as shown in Genesis 4:3-4; Genesis 8:20; Genesis 22:8; 13. You might want to also consider that God destroyed the earth with a flood because of the wickedness of mankind and that the thoughts of his heart were only evil continually which Jesus compares to breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments in Matthew 15:18-20 (see Genesis 6:5-7; compare Matthew 15:18-20). You may also want to consider that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire because of sin as it is written in Genesis 18:20 "And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous." God did not destroy mankind when they did not know what sin was (see James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31).

Take Care.

expos4ever · May 13, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
WHAT ABOUT THE LIES THAT NO ONE KNEW GOD'S LAW BEFORE MT SINAI?

Is Paul lying here?

for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law.

LoveGodsWord · May 13, 2022

expos4ever said:
How, and please be specific, does anything in Romans 6:1-23 justify changing this:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

into this:

But now we have been released from the judgement of the Law (but still need to follow it), having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. serve in newness of the Spirit and still follow the Law.

Note: Telling us true things about what Romans 6:1-23 has to say, but that do not justify the heavy editing you make to 7:6, is entirely irrelevant as any attentive reader will know. Verse 6 exists. It is part of scripture. Its words have meanings. Sure, certain words have a range of possible meanings with context being the arbiter. But that range is limited - as much as I might wish that the word "dog" might really denote "cat", no amount of context can do that. So, the reader will want to know, how does "not serving according to the Law" get morphed into "not being condemned according to the Law"?

Again, I suggest you are trying to have your argument prevail by overwhelming us with irrelevant stuff, true though that stuff may otherwise be.

You cannot get more specific then providing the complete context you have left out of your interpretation of a single scripture in Romans 7:6. This was provided already in post # 20 linked that you have not addressed or responded to showing why your interpretation that Romans 7:6 is teaching lawlessness (without law) is not biblical. If you want to know how Romans 6:1-23 related to Romans 7:6 it is because it is context. There is no chapters in the original Greek in these manuscripts. These were added in by the translators. Romans 6, Romans 7 and Romans 8 are all connected and on the same topic of the law of sin and death and the law of the Spirit of life. Romans as a whole is a complete manuscript and a complete work on righteousness by faith. I suggest it is best to consider all the scripture context and not read into a single scripture what it is not saying of teaching. For example look at how Romans 6:1-23 is directly stating the opposite of how your interpreting Romans 7:6 that God's 10 commandments have been abolished.

ROMANS 6:1-23
[1], What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2], God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3], Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4], Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5], For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[6], Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
[7], For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[8], Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[9], Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death has no more dominion over him.
[10], For in that he died, he died to sin once: but in that he lives, he lives to God.
[11], Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[12], Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[13], Neither yield you your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin: but yield yourselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
[14], For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.
[15], What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[16], Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?
[17], But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[18], Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.

TAKEN OUT FROM THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE

We are not to continue in sin - Romans 6:1-2
We are to be dead to sin - Romans 6:2
We are baptized into Christs death - Romans 6:3
We are buried into Christs death through baptism - Romans 6:4
We are to walk in newness of life - Romans 6:4-5
Our old man of sin and death is crucified with Christ - Romans 6:6
Our old man of sin and death is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin - Romans 6:6
Our old man of sin and death is dead in Christ so we can be freed from sin - Romans 6:6-7
Our old man of sin and death is dead with Christ so that we can live with Christ (married to another - Romans 7:1-7) - Romans 6:8
We are to reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin, but alive to God through Jesus - Romans 6:11
We are not to let sin (breaking God's law) reign in our bodies any longer - Romans 6:12
We are to yield ourselves to God as those being alive from the dead - Romans 6:13
Sin (breaking Gods' law) is no longer to have dominion over us - Romans 6:14
We are made free from sin to become servants of right doing - Romans 6:18

Note: The bibles definition of sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Your trying to argue there is no law therefore no sin. This is the opposite of what your teaching. Note also the comparisons of Romans 6:1-23 with Romans 7:1-7.

Romans 7:1-7
[1], Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
[2], For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
[3], So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
[4], Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
[5], For when we were in the FLESH <G4561 Carnal mind or sinful human nature>, the motions of SINS, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death.
[6], But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
[7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust,3 except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

TAKEN OUT FROM THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE

Paul is speaking to those who understand the law - Romans 7:1
The law has dominion over a man as long as we live - Romans 7:1
Example of marriage and a woman being bound to her husband as long as she lives - Romans 7:2
If the husband dies then she is free to marry another - Romans 7:2-3
We are to become dead to the law (of our first husband) by the body of Christ - Romans 7:2-4
For when we were in the flesh (first husband sinful nature) the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death - Romans 7:5
We are to die to what has bound us which is sin - Romans 7:5-6
Dying to that which has bound us (sin and death) we can serve in newness of life of the Spirit - Romans 7:6 compare Galatians 5:16 with Romans 8:1-4 and Romans 8:13.
It is through the law of God we have the knowledge of what sin is - Romans 7:7

The context your disregarding here is that Paul is talking to those who know the law and is saying that before we come to Christ we (those who know the law) are married to the law of sin and death which is working in our members. That is Gods' law reveals sin to us and gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. This first husband (sinful nature) must die before we can be married to Christ to walk in His Spirit in newness of life. This agrees with what Paul is talking about already in Romans 6:1-23 where he is talking about the true meaning of "baptism" and dying to the old man of sin so we can walk in newness of life.

................

CONCLUSION: It is that which binds us that we are released from which is sin that we are to die to not the law so that we can be married to Christ and walk in His Spirit. We are released from the condemnation of sin and death through faith in Gods' Word and by walking in His Spirit in newness of life (Romans 8:1-4). So nope the single scripture you have taken out of it's context in Romans 7:6 as shown above does not teach anywhere that Gods' 10 commandments are abolished. It is teaching that we must be released from the law of sin (breaking God's law) and death that has bound us in order to be married to another (Christ) to walk in newness of life not of the letter but of the Spirit of God. Context matters and your disregarding it here and it is in disagreement with your teachings.

LoveGodsWord · May 13, 2022

expos4ever said:
Is Paul lying here?
for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law.

Romans 5:13 means through the law we have a knowledge of what sin is and that without Gods' law we do not know what sin is because sin is the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4 (see also Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7). Sin is defined in the scriptures as the transgression of God's law *1 John 3:4 or breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *James 2:10-11 and not believing and following what God's Word says * Romans 14:23. Adams sin was that he disobeyed God not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil after God told him not to. Posts # 230 linked; post # 231 linked show from the scriptures, that Gods' law was known to the people of the world before Mt Sinai and post # 232 linked shows from the scriptures that God's laws were enforced by God and that people knew what sin was before Mt Sinai and the wages of practicing sin is death. So no Paul is not lying. Paul is agreeing with scriptures and in disagreement with your teachings of lawlessness (without law) because if there is no law we have no knowledge of what sin is. The very scripture you posted therefore does not agree with your teachings of lawlessness (no law or Gods' 10 commandments have been abolished).

Take Care.

Blade · May 13, 2022

Gods Law seems the 613 are toss out the REAL law is the 10 commandments ok. It does make one wonder why God had to write it on our hearts and not theirs. "The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” says the LORD, “I will put My law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they will be My people."

Did not Christ say if He had not come and spoke they would have no sin? "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.". It is a play on with words though. Well "no one".. duh we know some knew. Who here does not believe that? Now its how you word it we disagree with. And then telling us what GODS verses scriptures really are saying. .. the flood.. Angels mixed with man.. did we forget this? What we don't know for its not written is could have been thousands or billions. But Gods LAW was not known to all. If its NOT written on your heart how do you know? It is not written if you eat of the tree MAN will now right and wrong good and evil. Cain kills.. didn't he know GODS laws? He knew God for when God spoke he knew who was talking. So the way it is NOW is not the way it was then. What is written on our hearts we tend to believe ALL that came before us had the same thing. The word makes it clear that was not case.

Sorry but taking verses out of context to make the fit what you/we believe is not right. Oh yes 15-20y ago here I would have posted as you do... my own words not someone elses but I have to say.. this is what I believe and I can be wrong. Thanks though. I just kindly disagree with your personal view

LoveGodsWord · May 13, 2022

Hi Blade, nice to see you again. Let's examine this one in some detail in friendly discussion and bring everything to the light of Gods' Word and apply the advice of Paul to examine ourselves to see if we are following the scriptures or not (2 Corinthians 13:5) remembering that our words and opinions do not mean anything in God's eyes and that only God's Word is truth that we should believe and follow according to Romans 3:4; John 17:17 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29. Comments provided below.

Blade said:
Gods Law seems the 613 are toss out the REAL law is the 10 commandments ok. It does make one wonder why God had to write it on our hearts and not theirs. "The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” says the LORD, “I will put My law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they will be My people."

According to the scriptures there is no problem between the old covenant and the new covenants as Gods' people in the old covenant were saved in exactly the same way that we are saved in the new covenant and that is by faith *see Hebrews 11. Only the process was different. The old covenant was to teach God's people about God's plan of salvation in the new covenant and the work of the coming Messiah as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all in Jesus who is God's own son (see John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 10:10). The old covenant teaches us that the wages of all sin is death and that it is only atonement through blood sacrifice and faith in those sacrifices atoning for our sins that we can receive God's forgiveness for sins. Here is where we see God's justice for sin and God's mercy for the sinner combined in the old covenant. The old covenant consisted of God's 10 commandment that were to give God's people a knowledge of good (moral right doing when obeyed) and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) *see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Psalms 119:172. Once someone sinned however under the old covenant the sinners had to seek out a Levite Priest in the earthly Sanctuary confess their sins on the animals head symbolizing their sins had been transferred to the animal sacrifice and then in the presence of the Priest in the Sanctuary kill the animal sacrifice with their own hands. The Priest then would collect the blood and make atonement for those who sinned with the blood by sprinkling the blood of the animal sacrifice on the horns of the alter of sacrifice *see the Mosaic laws for sin offerings Leviticus 1:1-17; Leviticus 2:1-16; Leviticus 3:1-17; Leviticus 4:1-35; Leviticus 5:1-19; Leviticus 6:1-30; Leviticus 7:1-38; Leviticus 8:1-36; Leviticus 9:1-24; Leviticus 16:1-24; Leviticus 17:1-16 etc. All the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins were to pointing to Jesus teaching us about the coming Messiah and God's plan of salvation for all mankind. The only difference between those living in the old covenant and those living in the new covenant is that Gods' people in the old covenant through all the Mosaic laws for remission of sins (the earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, all the laws for animal sacrifices and sin offerings, circumcision, the annual Feast days etc) looked forward to the promised Messiah in Jesus while we look backwards. All the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sin in the old covenant pointed to Gods plan of salvation for mankind in the promised Messiah Jesus who would be Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all *Hebrews 10:10. *see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22.

Blade said:
Did not Christ say if He had not come and spoke they would have no sin? "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.". It is a play on with words though. Well "no one".. duh we know some knew. Who here does not believe that? Now its how you word it we disagree with. And then telling us what GODS verses scriptures really are saying. .. the flood.. Angels mixed with man.. did we forget this? What we don't know for its not written is could have been thousands or billions. But Gods LAW was not known to all. If its NOT written on your heart how do you know? It is not written if you eat of the tree MAN will now right and wrong good and evil. Cain kills.. didn't he know GODS laws? He knew God for when God spoke he knew who was talking. So the way it is NOW is not the way it was then. What is written on our hearts we tend to believe ALL that came before us had the same thing. The word makes it clear that was not case.

I am not sure what your actually talking about here to be honest or even specifically what it is that you disagree with. You might have to explain yourself a little more so we can discuss it if you would like to. What is it specifically that you disagree with. Please be specific. I agree with you that sometimes Gods' law is not always known to all people and the bible teaches this in James 4:17 and Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 where it is written that in times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word he calls all men everywhere to believe and follow what His Word says.

Blade said:
Sorry but taking verses out of context to make the fit what you/we believe is not right. Oh yes 15-20y ago here I would have posted as you do... my own words not someone elses but I have to say.. this is what I believe and I can be wrong. Thanks though. I just kindly disagree with your personal view

Well this is something you would need to prove. Please be specific and show me how any scripture I have provided here in this thread is taken out of it's context that changes the meaning of the scriptures shared here. If you are reading most of my posts here you will see have been addressing peoples arguments by providing the scripture context and reading out of the scriptures to show that the many claims here by others that Gods' 10 commandments have been abolished is a false teaching and is not supported in the scripture context. My challenge to you therefore if you believe I have taken scripture out of it's context that gives a different meaning to the scriptures that have been shared in this OP is to prove it. If you cannot then what excuse do you have not to believe God's Words by making claims and accusations you cannot support by scripture? Let's be honest in friendly Christian discussion. What scripture have you provided to support your views here? You have not provided any accept for your own words and opinions. This is said with all respect and honesty and not meant to be offensive but just to help the discussion as I hope only the best for you as a brother in Christ remembering our words and opinions do not really mean much in Gods eyes. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29 if we are to examine ourselves to see if we are truly in the faith or not taking the advice of Paul in *2 Corinthians 13:5.

Take Care.

LoveGodsWord · May 13, 2022

WHAT ABOUT THE LIES OF JESUS BREAKING THE SABBATH?

The argument from some trying to avoid loving obedience to their Creator is that if Jesus broke the Sabbath then so can we and hence also claim that it was not sin to do so as Jesus never sinned (1 Peter 2:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:21). In any case, how could anyone think that God would give a Commandment in stone and then consider it to be acceptable to break it and not be sin to do so?

1 John 3:4 informs us of what we should already be aware of which is that sin is transgression of the law. Thus if Jesus did break the Sabbath then he would have broken His own law and would be a sinner, and if Jesus had sinned then He could not have been our Saviour. Hence this is a very serious accusation some have made against our Lord and Saviour just to avoid loving obedience to our Creator.

Note in John 9:14-24 who is accusing Jesus of breaking the Sabbath. So if one chooses to believe the accusation of the Pharisees, then one has to accept that they (and the others) are also correct in calling Jesus a sinner for doing so and that they have no Saviour.

The main passage in contention is John 5:18 where once again Jesus is found healing a man on the Sabbath, and so the Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath yet again. When John wrote the words Jesus broke the Sabbath, he was describing Jesus' actions from the Pharisees' perspective (compare John 9:14-16) and we will see irrefutable evidence of this in a moment. But note first what Jesus had to say about the Pharisees. Matthew 5:20, “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” So whose words do you think we should listen to? The words of Jesus or the words of the Pharisees who also had Jesus crucified.

Note that the Pharisees also accused Jesus of blasphemy for making Himself equal with the Father. Were the Pharisees correct? They were no more correct on this allegation than they were on their accusation of Jesus breaking the Sabbath.

Here is the proof that this accusation was from the Pharisees and not John and that it was not breaking the Sabbath by healing on this day.

Matthew 12:10-12 “And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the Sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is LAWFUL to do well on the Sabbath days.”

So once again the Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath by healing on His day as in John 5:18. However, this time we have the words of Jesus Himself as to if doing good deeds such as healing on the Sabbath was lawful.

Why would the opponents of true Sabbath worship put their faith in the words of the Pharisees rather than the words of their own Lord and Saviour? What Christian that truly loves God would listen to the Pharisees that Jesus said would not to enter the kingdom instead of Him? And who would only quote John 5:5-18 but never mention Matthew 12:10-12 that says it was NOT unlawful to heal and do good on the Sabbath?

We can be very thankful that Jesus was not a sinner and never broke any of the Ten Commandments as He clarifies in this passage when He says “that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath,” such as healing the sick or pulling an animal out of a hole that would otherwise suffer. It saddens me deeply that there are some that have falsely claimed Jesus broke the Sabbath just to avoid spending quality time with Him on His Holy day.

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

guevaraj · May 14, 2022

expos4ever said:
1. Restrict the sense of what it means to be "released" from the Law - you need to say that the only thing that has happened is that we have been released from the role of the Law in judging us. How do you defend such an unusual move. To be "released from a law" reads most naturally as a declaration that we have been released from the need to follow that law.

Brother, happy Sabbath! You are "released" from the law when Jesus gives you "eternal life" when the law demands your "death" for your past sin, even if you don't sin again for the rest of your life. The reason Jesus can take your place daily as our High Priest is because He is the one responsible for your existence. Jesus' plan of separating sin from you is shown in the earthly temple service where your sins are moved over to Satan daily.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23 NLT)

If you don't want to be a sinner, you use God's provisions as our High Priest to move your sins daily to Satan. It has to do with God's justice, being merciful to the repentant sinner and punishing the one responsible for your being born into your situation because Satan tempted Eve to disobey God by lying to her. Satan wanted power over us and God has made it so that we have power over him by unloading our sins on him daily.

“Don’t let anyone call you ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one teacher, and all of you are equal as brothers and sisters. And don’t address anyone here on earth as ‘Father,’ for only God in heaven is your Father. And don’t let anyone call you ‘Teacher,’ for you have only one teacher, the Messiah. The greatest among you must be a servant. But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. (Matthew 23:8-12 NLT)

expos4ever said:
2. Redefine the concept of "not serving according to the letter" as "not being judged by the letter". That is a bridge too far. Let's return to the concept of semantic range - there is no way one can take the concept of "not serving according to the law" and morph it into "not being judged according to the law" without committing an egregious act of violence against the meaning of the verb "to serve".

The "new" commandment of Jesus is about following His example to overcome the limitations of the 10 prior commandments below. If love were a circle, Jesus' example allows us to fill the circle instead of the ten commandments telling us mainly the boundary to remain in the circle. The law has limitations that Jesus overcame. Our righteousness will surpass the righteousness of those before us if we follow Jesus' example above and beyond His obeying the law.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Leaf473 · May 14, 2022

guevaraj said:
You are "released" from the law when Jesus gives you "eternal life" when the law demands your "death" for your past sin, even if you don't sin again for the rest of your life. The reason Jesus can take your place daily as our High Priest is because He is the one responsible for your existence. Jesus' plan of separating sin from you is shown in the earthly temple service where your sins are moved over to Satan daily.

Are you saying that Jesus gives us eternal life each day as he moves our daily sins over to Satan each day?

guevaraj · May 14, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Are you saying that Jesus gives us eternal life each day as he moves our daily sins over to Satan each day?

Brother, happy Sabbath! Yes, if we keep our sins, we will die! If, however, we use God's provision as our High Priest to move our sins daily to Satan, we gain eternal life until the cycle is repeated again, as a child learns to walk by getting up again and again through Jesus' forgiveness, until we no longer fall into sin.

Here is the main point: We have a High Priest who sat down in the place of honor beside the throne of the majestic God in heaven. There he ministers in the heavenly Tabernacle, the true place of worship that was built by the Lord and not by human hands. And since every high priest is required to offer gifts and sacrifices, our High Priest must make an offering, too. If he were here on earth, he would not even be a priest, since there already are priests who offer the gifts required by the law. They serve in a system of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven. For when Moses was getting ready to build the Tabernacle, God gave him this warning: “Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain.” (Hebrews 8:1-5 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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