Historical Basis of Dispensationalism

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BABerean2

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Darby was teaching this doctrine long before 1834. But that is immaterial.

In 2015, the late William C. Watson, who was a college level professor of seventeenth and eighteeth centiry english literature, Published a book titled "Dispenstionalism Before Darby," in which he quoted literally dozens of writers who taught a rapture before the great tribulation in the 1600s and 1700s. Three years later, in 2018, I published a book titled "Ancient Dispensational Truth," in which I quoted three writers from truly ancient times that taught the same doctrine. Other writers have also identified at least three medieval writers who taught the same doctrine. This means that together we have positively identified no less that thirty writers who had already taught this doctrine before either Darby or MacDonald had even been born. And this included at least three who had taught it more than a thousand years before either of them was born.


I have Watson's book in my library because you recommended it.

Watson claimed anyone who believes the Church is gathered before the final conflagration is a "Dispensationalist".

In other words, Watson redefined the meaning of the term "Dispensationalist" to make his claims work.


You have been shown Darby's 1829 paper which reveals he was aware of the work of the Irvingites and disagreed with them at that time, and contains none of his later Dispensationalist teachings. This paper shows the "horse accident" claims by Thomas Ice and others to be a revision of history.

The pritrib doctrine was found in the October 1830 issue of "The Morning Watch", which was the periodical of the Irvingites.

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BABerean2

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All of the concepts expressed in these quotations are clearly stated in multiple scriptures.

Are you saying you believe modern Jews are going to live forever on this earth, while the Church will live forever in heaven?

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:



“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.


Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.


John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…


"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25



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Biblewriter

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I was requesting the anti-dispensational guy to try to back up his claim that someone named "Margaret MacDonald" taught the future restoration of Israel. Which he cannot do. He would need to be able to do that in order to back up his anti-dispensationalist false claim that someone named "Margaret MacDonald" INVENTED the doctrine of the future restoration of Israel. Because he can't prove that someone named "Margaret MacDonald" taught the future restoration of Israel, he has no hope of proving that someone named "Margaret MacDonald" invented that doctrine.
But What I have proved here is that the doctrine was being taught one and a half thousand years before Margaret MacDonald was even born.
 
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Clare73

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So, the question of whether or not the words of someone named "Margaret MacDonald" can be quoted as teaching the doctrine of the future restoration of Israel is, indeed, very material for the anti-dispensationalist who claims that someone named "Margaret MacDonald" invented that doctrine. And, as you know, the anti-dispensationalist ain't got the material! :)
But What I have proved here is that the doctrine was being taught one and a half thousand years before Margaret MacDonald was even born.
Red herring. . .

What matters is not what various men taught when, but what is authoritative NT apostolic teaching.
And that teaching locates all the following events in the last day, allowing no more time for anything temporal at the second coming:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurence,

the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats (all mankind),
thereby making the resurrection to be of all mankind, and only one resurrection.

Authoritative apostolic teaching, as compared to personal interpretation of prophetic riddles, allows no time after the second coming for a temporal restoration of Israel, only eternity follows.
 
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Dan Perez

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Red herring. . .

What matters is not what various men taught when, but what is authoritative NT apostolic teaching.
And that teaching locates all the following events in the last day, allowing no more time for anything temporal at the second coming:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurence,

the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

And I believe that your quotation of Matt 25:32 CLASHS with Rev 20:11-15 .
.


And your answer and quotation from Matt 25:32 CLASH with Rev 20:11-15 .

Matthew , say that the Son of Man , gather all nations and divide the Sheep ( which is Israel ) from the Goats '

And Israel inherit the KINGDOM .

In verse 46 the Goats go away into Everlasting punishment .

The WHITE THRONE , the dead , and the SEA gave up the dead and Death and Hell delivered up the dead and were JUDGED to their works .

And were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE .

dan p
 
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Clare73

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And your answer and quotation from Matt 25:32 CLASH with Rev 20:11-15 .
Prophecy is given in riddles and subject to more than one interpretation. Apostolic teaching (Matthew 25:32) is not.
NT teaching is authoritative doctrine not given in riddles.
Matthew , say that the Son of Man , gather all nations and divide the Sheep ( which is Israel ) from the Goats '
The flock of the Good Shepherd consists only of those who believe in and trust on him for the forgiveness of their sin.
And Israel inherit the KINGDOM .

In verse 46 the Goats go away into Everlasting punishment .
The goats are all who do not believe in Jesus, not just Israel.
The WHITE THRONE , the dead , and the SEA gave up the dead and Death and Hell delivered up the dead and were JUDGED to their works .

And were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE .
Those are riddles of prophecy, subject to more than one interpretation, but subject to no interpretation in disagreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching (Matthew 25:32).
 
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Clare73

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And your answer and quotation from Matt 25:32 CLASH with Rev 20:11-15 .
Prophecy is given in riddles and subject to more than one interpretation. Apostolic teaching (Matthew 25:32) is not.
NT teaching is authoritative doctrine not given in riddles.
Matthew , say that the Son of Man , gather all nations and divide the Sheep ( which is Israel ) from the Goats '
The flock of the Good Shepherd consists only of those who believe in and trust on him for the forgiveness of their sin.
And Israel inherit the KINGDOM .

In verse 46 the Goats go away into Everlasting punishment .
The goats are all who do not believe in Jesus, not just Israel.

God does not have two people, he has only one, the one olive tree going back to Abraham, of those who believe in Jesus Christ, the church, to which, IF they do not persist in unbelief, it is Israel's destiny to return (Romans 11:23).

For in authoritative NT apostolic teaching, the Church is
the called-out people of God going back to Abraham (Genesis 12:1; Galatians 3:7-8, Galatians 3:16, Galatians 3:29; Romans 4:16, Romans 11:16-17; Ephesians 3:6; 1 Peter 2:9-10),

the body of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Ephesians 5:31-32),
that body being the singular vessel
(Ephesians 1:22-23, Ephesians 2:11-22, Ephesians 3:6),
the one tree (Romans 11:17-24),
the only vine (Hosea 10:1; John 15:5) and
the one fold (John 10:16),

wherein God demonstrates the wisdom of his counsels, for the instructing of the angels (Ephesians 3:10-11; cf 1 Corinthians 4:9, 1 Corinthians 11:10; 1 Peter 1:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; Hebrews 12:22; Luke 15:7). It is

the New Jerusalem, the Holy City, Mount Zion, the holy mountain (Hebrews 12:22),
including the OT saints (Revelation 21:9-12),
the circumcision (Philippians 3:3),
the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16),
the chosen people, royal priesthood, holy nation (1 Peter 2:9),
the seed of Abraham (Romans 4:11; Galatians 3:29),

in whom God's eternal purpose from before the foundations of the world has been to prepare her as a bride, without spot or blemish to present her radiant to the Lamb, his one and only Son, (Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 5:25-32; Revelation 19:7-8, Revelation 21:1-2, Revelation 21:9-14).
All of history and all of time is for this SINGLE purpose of God--to prepare a bride for his Son.

The OT revealed the plan in types and shadows
(Genesis 18:18; Exodus 15:17; Psalms 49:9-15, Psalms 48:1-14; Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 24:23, Isaiah 25:6-10, Isaiah 26:1-2, Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah 55:3-5, Isaiah 56:6-8, Isaiah 60:1-22; Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 65:1, Isaiah 65:17-25, Isaiah 66:20-24);
Christ secured the plan on the cross (Ephesians 5:23-25; Titus 2:14), and
the NT reveals the plan in full ( (Romans 16:25-26; Ephesians 1:9-10, Ephesians 3:3-6, Ephesians 3:8-11, Ephesians 5:32; Colossians 1:26-28, Colossians 2:2-3; Revelation 10:7, Revelation 11:15, Revelation 16:17, Revelation 21:6).

So that all those not called to that single purpose (Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:9-11, Ephesians 3:10-11; Philippians 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:9); i.e., all those not included in the bride of the Lamb (aka, the Church, the body of Christ, Mount Zion, the holy mountain, the New Jerusalem, the Holy City, the kingdom of God, the new creation--Ephesians 2:10) are eternally lost outsiders (Romans 11:23; Revelation 22:14-15; cf 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Ephesians 5:5; Galatians 5:19-21),
because they are not part of that eternal plan secured by the sacrifice of the Lamb (Ephesians 1:22-23, Ephesians 5:23-32; Acts 4:12).

It is in the light of the NT that we learn that God has only one purpose in human history (Ephesians 1:8-11), and that purpose is his Church, the bride of the Lamb and the body of his Christ (Colossians 1:16-20; Revelation 11:15). That Church is
the goal of all his counsels (Romans 8:30; Romans 9:22-24; cf Exodus 12:36; Deuteronomy 4:37-38; 1 Chronicles 17:12-14; Proverbs 13:22, Proverbs 21:18; Isaiah 43:3-4; Revelation 21:6),
the showcase of his wisdom,
the crown jewel of his new creation
(Revelation 21:1; Revelation 21:11, Revelation 21:18-21). It is the true temple (Ephesians 2:19-22) and
the singular residence of his glory (Revelation 21:22-23).

So
in the light of the NT, we see that the prophetic types; e.g., the promised land, the kingdom, Mount Zion, the holy mountain, Jerusalem, the Holy City, the bride (Ezekiel 16:32; Isaiah 62:5; Jeremiah 3:6-20), the temple (Ezekiel 40-44; Zechariah 6:12-13), the priesthood, etc.
have their completion in Christ, and in his body, the Church (2 Corinthians 1:20; Matthew 12:28; Luke 17:21-22; Hebrews 12:22; 1 Peter 2:5, 1 Peter 2:9-10),
either in time on earth, in eternity in the new creation, or both; for
the Church is that new creation both of time
(2 Corinthians 4:16, 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15) and eternity (Revelation 21:1, Revelation 21:4-8),
which is the restoring of the original creation (Genesis 1:27 w/ Colossians 3:10; Ephesians 4:24; Titus 3:5; Genesis 1:28 w/ Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 6:2-3; Genesis 2:24 w/ Matthew 19:8-9; Romans 8:19-23 w/ 2 Peter 3:12-13).

That is authoritative NT apostolic teaching, not private interpretation of prophetic riddles, and in which NT light we see the marvelous unity, not division, of the divine plan (Ephesians 4:4-6), as well as of the Bible.
 
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BABerean2

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Matthew , say that the Son of Man , gather all nations and divide the Sheep ( which is Israel ) from the Goats '

And Israel inherit the KINGDOM .

In verse 46 the Goats go away into Everlasting punishment .


Which Israel are you talking about in Romans 9:8?
Do you mean Israel of the "flesh", or Israel of the "promise"?

Which Israel are you talking about in Romans 11:1-5?
Are you talking about the Baal worshipers, or are you talking about the faithful "remnant"?
(See also Romans 9:27 for the "remnant".)

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

.
 
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Dan Perez

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Which Israel are you talking about in Romans 9:8?
Do you mean Israel of the "flesh", or Israel of the "promise"?

Which Israel are you talking about in Romans 11:1-5?
Are you talking about the Baal worshipers, or are you talking about the faithful "remnant"?
(See also Romans 9:27 for the "remnant".)

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

.
And it seem that many believe that in Rom 11:25 all will be saved and will be ( kings and priests ) Rev 1:6 , and worried us to what happens to them .

Because in the millennial kingdom , called the thousand years , many children will be born .

dan p
 
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Red herring. . .

...is what you are guilty of, here. You are trying to divert attention away from the anti-dispensationalists' failure to deal with the challenge I have leveled against them regarding their false claim about the doctrine of the future restoration of Israel.

What matters is not what various men taught when,

Then why do anti-dispensational talkers in this thread, and elsewhere, spend their time falsely claiming that someone named "Margaret MacDonald" taught, in the early 19th century, the doctrine of the future restoration of Israel?

Why are you trying to change the subject away from the challenge I have leveled against the anti-dispensational talkers? I have repeatedly asked for documentation to be posted, in this thread, of the words of someone named "Margaret MacDonald" from England in the early 19th century, wherein she is teaching the doctrine of the future restoration of Israel. But, you anti-dispensational talkers have posted none, whatsoever. This is because, as you and I both know well, you have none. You cannot post what you don't have. That is why you are trying to change the subject; you're trying to shift attention away from your glaring failure to stand up to the challenge I have leveled.

but what is authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

That's what YOU call the things YOU happen to believe: "authoritative NT apostolic teaching". But so what? Your doing so is of no weight. Anyone can call the things he/she happens to believe, "authoritative NT apostolic teaching." Obviously, it is cheap and easy for you to do so, but your so doing does not erase the fact that you are in error in calling your manmade, anti-dispensational ideology, "authoritative NT apostolic teaching." Calling your error "authoritative NT apostolic teaching" does not cause your error to become authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

And that teaching locates all the following events in the last day, allowing no more time for anything temporal at the second coming:

"Allowing no more time" than how much time?

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).

The last day of what?

Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

What (if anything) do you mean by that?

The resurrection of which Paul is speaking in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, he clearly states to occur BEFORE the occurrence of the rapture of which he is speaking in verse 17.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Apparently you missed the last word of verse 16 and the first word of verse 17.

Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).

Why do you imagine Matthew 24:39-31 is referring to a rapture? And, a rapture 1) of whom, 2) by whom, 3) from where, 4) to where?

Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33).

Where did you get your phrase, "the second coming" (two of the three words of which you have highlighted with a red font)? That's not even in the Bible; it's not a Bible phrase. To what (if any) event are you referring by it?

So in terms of the time of their occurence [sic], the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

What you wrote, here, is nonsensical. "The last day EQUALS resurrection"?? "Resurrection EQUALS rapture"?? Are you trying to do some sort of arithmetic?

and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats (all mankind),

Where is it said that any of those with whom Christ dialogues in Matthew 25:34-45 have, by the time of that dialogue, died and been resurrected?


thereby making the resurrection to be of all mankind, and only one resurrection.

Obviously NO resurrection is to be of all mankind, since not all mankind shall die. Those who do not die do not get resurrected.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16, which did Paul say:

1) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first,"

OR

2) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and all mankind shall rise first"?

Which did Paul say: 1 or 2?


Authoritative apostolic teaching,
as compared to personal interpretation of prophetic riddles, allows no time after the second coming for a temporal restoration of Israel, only eternity follows.

To what event are you referring by your extra-biblical phrase, "the second coming"?

Oh, and speaking of temporal things, if you say no days follow whatever you are referring to by your phrase, "the last day," how do you work into your program time for the devil, the beast, and the false prophet to be tormented DAY and NIGHT for ever and ever in the lake of fire?
 
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BABerean2

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Because in the millennial kingdom , called the thousand years , many children will be born .

Do you believe Jesus will be conducting funeral services for mortals killed in accidents for 1,000 years after His Second Coming?

Revelation 20: Does your interpretation agree with all other scripture?

(Chronological or Recapitulation?) (Literal vs. Figurative?)

Based on the following scripture, will immortals and mortals both live on earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will there be renewed animal sacrifices in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will Christ conduct funeral services for mortals killed in accidents many years after His Second Coming? Graveyards needed?


Can the following questions be examined without ridicule, and condemnation, based on the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?


Can the number 1,000 be used in a symbolic manner? Psalm 50:10


Does an angel with a key come from heaven and open the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2? Why did the angel have to unlock the pit if it was not locked previously?

Who is the king of the angels in the bottomless pit found in Revelation 9:11?

Are some of the angels “bound” in some manner in Revelation 9:14?

If the beast comes up out of the pit in Revelation 11:7, where is the beast before then?


John sees “souls” at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20.

Are these the same “souls” found in Revelation 6:9-11?


Is the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20:5 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation? (Rev. 11:11) Are there two different types of resurrections in John chapter 5?

John 5:24 (Spiritual) ? Were you dead, and now you are alive?

John 5:27-30 Christ describes the bodily resurrection and “hour” of judgment of “all” the dead.


Who is the “strong man” who is bound in Matthew 12:26-29?

How is Satan “bound” in Revelation 20:3?


How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?


Isaiah 65:17-25? Are people really dying in verse 20? Context, Context, Context…

The New Heavens and New Earth are found at the beginning of the passage, and the end of the curse is found at the end of the passage.

What happens if verse 20 begins with a negative statement? "There will be no more..."


Was Paul expecting Christ to return "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10? How would mortals survive this fire?

Does the fire come at the end of Revelation 20?


Did Paul expect both the living and the dead to be judged at the appearing of Christ, in 2 Timothy 4:1?

When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20? Is it the same judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18?


What is the restitution of all things at the return of Christ in Acts 3:20-21?

Will Christ's sacrifice at Calvary also reverse the curse, at His return?


Does death die at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:50-55?


Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship? See John 4:20-24.

Why did Paul say the Jerusalem above is our “mother” in Galatians 4:24-31?

What is the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?


Is the third temple found in 1 Peter 2:4-10? Is this temple just as real as a temple made of earthly stones?


What was Peter expecting on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in 2 Peter 3:10-13?


Do we find the judgment of both the living and the dead at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, in Revelation 11:15-18? Why do most preachers ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18? What does it prove about the chronology of the Book of Revelation?


,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Is there a correlation between Revelation 20 and earlier passages in the Book of Revelation?

Is Revelation chapter 20 another example of “Recapitulation”?



Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

============================

An evening with eschatology: Three viewpoints

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BABerean2

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But What I have proved here is that the doctrine was being taught one and a half thousand years before Margaret MacDonald was even born.

I have read your personal interpretation of the writings of Irenaeus, which can be interpreted the opposite of what you claim.
No matter what anyone has claimed in the past about the pre-trib doctrine, the truth is found below.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

====================

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.

.
 
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Clare73

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...is what you are guilty of, here. You are trying to divert attention away from the anti-dispensationalists' failure to deal with the challenge I have leveled against them
The fact remains. . .your challenge is irrelevant and a red herring. . .for it matters not who nor where the doctrine originated, it matters only how it matches up to authoritative NT apostolic teaching, with which that doctrine disagrees, making it erroneous, as demonstrated in post #124 regarding apostolic teaching on the last day, and post #137 regarding apostolic teaching on the church, both above.

It falls to you to demonstrate what I have presented in posts #124 and #137 is not apostolic teaching, our only authority for truth in the NT.
 
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Biblewriter

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I have read your personal interpretation of the writings of Irenaeus, which can be interpreted the opposite of what you claim.
No matter what anyone has claimed in the past about the pre-trib doctrine, the truth is found below.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

====================

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.

.
The writings of Irenaeus, Victorinus, and the unknown writer called "pseudo-Ephraem" were very clearly stated. But their words are wrested by those that do not WANT to believe what they so very clearly said.
 
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BABerean2

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The writings of Irenaeus, Victorinus, and the unknown writer called "pseudo-Ephraem" were very clearly stated.

"Pseudo-Ephraem" means we have no idea who this person was, and for all we know he could have been an agent of Satan.

Dr. John C. Reeves, Professor of ancient texts from UNC-Charlotte has said "Pseudo-Ephraem's" writings ,in their complete form, do not confirm what pre-tribbers claim.


See the link below.

John C. Reeves | Pseudo-Ephrem (Syriac) (charlotte.edu)


The partial quote below is found near the end of the passage.

"
The saints will come before him,

In order to expose the Son of Destruction

Before the assemblies surrounding him:

‘If you are indeed God,

Tell us what we ask of you:

Where is the place that you have hidden

The elders Elijah and Enoch?’

The Evil One will respond and say

To the saints at that time:

‘When I wish (it), they are in the height(s),

Or again should I choose, they are within the sea;

For I have authority over habitations,

Since there is no other god apart from me

And I can make anything

On earth (and) also in heaven!’"


.
 
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Tortex Plectrum

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You:
Darby got it from Margaret McDonald.

VERSUS

You:
a red herring. . .for it matters not who nor where the doctrine originated

You sure do study to be self-inconsistent! Amazing!

You're the one who brought up the name, "Margaret McDonald"; I did not bring it up. So it's amusing to see you calling your own bringing up of the name, "Margaret McDonald," "a red herring".

LOL @ u trolling urself!
 
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Clare73

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You:
Clare73 said:
Darby got it from Margaret McDonald.
VERSUS
You:
Clare73 said:
a red herring. . .for it matters not who nor where the doctrine originated
You sure do study to be self-inconsistent! Amazing!

You're the one who brought up the name, "Margaret McDonald"; I did not bring it up. So it's amusing to see you calling your own bringing up of the name, "Margaret McDonald,"
"a red herring"
.

LOL @ u trolling urself!
Sour grapes?. . .irrelevant. . .

Whose question was I answering in my first response?
 
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Tortex Plectrum

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Whose question was I answering in my first response?

You were not answering anyone's question.

You were merely trolling.

If you ever were to answer a question you've been asked, it would be a rare, remarkable surprise!
 
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Clare73

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You were not answering anyone's question.
You were merely trolling.
Are you sure about that?
If you ever were to answer a question you've been asked, it would be a rare, remarkable surprise!
Sour grapes?
Having a little trouble handling the following truth?
Exactly what (if anything) do you mean when you say that the doctrine of the future restoration of Israel "goes back to" someone you call "Margaret McDonald"?
Clare73 said:
Darby got it from Margaret McDonald.
 
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