Game over for the president

miamited said:

Hi @RestoreTheJoy



Yes, and if you read that Forbes report, you'd have seen that their numbers are for all the money we've spent in equipment and training since the beginning of the war. Quite a lot of that was used up and is not some 'asset' sitting on the ground that one can pick up. How do you take away 20 years of training given to a soldier? Another large part of the vehicle count shows vehicles that we gave to the Afghani military. We didn't 'leave' that behind. Those were their vehicles. It was up to the Afghani military to secure them if they were to be secured from the Taliban. So, while I agree that a lot of stuff was left behind, it's nowhere near the dollar amount that you've quoted. The video shown earlier doesn't explain whether or not the vehicles being paraded are vehicles that were found out at abandoned U.S. military bases or whether they were vehicles that we had given the Afghani military and were taken from them by the Taliban forces. There is a big difference as to who is responsible in each scenario.


Yes, and if you read that report it was about the deaths of 12 servicemen 'while' we were leaving. We didn't 'leave' soldiers behind to die. Those soldiers died as a part of the effort to leave. There was another bombing incident just as the many hundreds that had occurred throughout the 20 year mission. It was while we were still in country and making an effort to leave. They died with other American servicemen standing within dozens of feet of them. They weren't left alone to die.

All of your complaints are really not valid to support the position you're making, as I see it. As far as the rest of your post concerning the Wiki article, none of that supports your position that we left billions of dollars of valuable military equipment or soldiers in Afghanistan after we left. It is merely a recount of how quickly the Taliban retook power. Everyone knew that was going to happen!!! It's Afghanistan!!! One of the problems with Americans, is that we think that not only should the rest of the world live like us, but we're going to do everything within our power to make them. Well, that doesn't work well in countries that are older than we are and have a longer and older established governmental system that we're trying to overthrow.

Look, it's fine with me if you want to hold Pres. Biden responsible for a bunch of boogey man issues that you exaggerate into major Himalayan mountains, but there is a truth that won't be ignored by those who actually look into the claims.

God bless,

Ted

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A considerable amount of the millions/billions spent was for hard equipment as well. Here is some information:


The Biden administration admitted on Tuesday that the Taliban had captured a significant amount of U.S. military equipment originally supplied to Afghan security forces during the militants’ blitzkrieg on Kabul in recent weeks — and the U.S. doesn’t know exactly how much American gear they’ve lost to terrorist hands.

“We don’t have a complete picture, obviously, of where every article of defense materials has gone but certainly, a fair amount of it has fallen into the hands of the Taliban,” White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said during a press conference. “Obviously, we don’t have a sense that they are going to readily hand it over to us at the airport.”

Here’s all the US military equipment that likely ended up in Taliban hands

And remember that 13 soldiers - all with expensive training - didn't even live through the day of abandonment in Afghanistan. And God knows how many allies or Americans still there.

If you know it's going to happen because it's Afghanistan - as Biden had to know - and as you even admit here - then he DID it knowing full well, we were handing over equipment to the Taliban.

I can see you are a Biden fan though. I am not, with the failures on every single front that he has created. At any rate, thank you for the discussion.

TLK Valentine said:

I haven't had time to go through the entire thread: has anyone posted the obligatory Bill Paxton gif yet?

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I thought about it but it seemed so….. easy.

The Insurrection at the Capitol just the other day resulted in the arrests of 27 people by Capitol Police. It received little coverage in the "mainstream" media.

Among those arrested by Capitol Police on various charges was US Congressman Jamaal Bowman, a member of Democratic Socialists of America. Predictably, most reports refused to refer to the uprising as a "coup attempt," as an act of treason, or as the greatest challenge to the survival of democracy in America since last week.

Albion said:

The Insurrection at the Capitol just the other day in which 27 people, including US Congressman Jamaal Bowman, a Socialist, were arrested by Capitol Police on various charges received little coverage in the "mainstream" media. Not surprisingly, the mainstream media declined to refer to the uprising as a "coup attempt."

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How many states sent fake electors to this attempt? How many high ranking federal officials colluded? How many protesters broke through barricaded doors? You are being …. Kindly out…. Ridiculous.

Clizby WampusCat said:

Then supply that evidence or refute my evidence. Like I told KC, I am not interested in unevidenced claims.

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We've covered that already with the insurrection, the fake electoral votes, and conspiracy to overturn the election. Try to keep up.

Hi @RestoreTheJoy

RestoreTheJoy said:

I can see you are a Biden fan though. I am not, with the failures on every single front that he has created. At any rate, thank you for the discussion.

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I don't know that I'd classify myself as a Biden 'fan', but I get your point. I did vote for him in the general election. I just like good sound government that is run by responsible and respectful people.

I would say that everything in your copied statement of what the administration said is correct. We don't know how much military gear was left on the ground. We never do. It's just piles and piles of stuff that no one wants to take the trouble and expense to bring back and it happens, as I've previously said, in pretty much every military skirmish that we are involved in. Certainly ones that take 10-20 years to reach completion. A lot of stuff gets scattered about and a lot stuff is deemed not worth bringing back. I would also again say that whatever the Taliban gained from what we gave to the Afghanistan government that was in power when we left, is not our responsibility to police.

I have also readily admitted that everyone that was in on the decision making process was somewhat surprised at the speed with which the Afghani government capitulated and that is just too bad. Only God knows the future, the rest of us just guess at it the best that we can. As far as your imagining that we left soldiers to die in Afghanistan, that is not a true statement. The 12 soldiers who died in the bomb attack while we were leaving, were not left to die. There were American soldiers standing toe to toe with them and they died in an attack just as some several hundred soldiers had before them while we were still in country. You're correct that only God knows how many were left behind, but you seem to be trying your best to make it appear that you know, also

Anyway, you are free to call me a Biden fan, I don't take offense. Personally, I'd much rather be a Biden fan than a Trump fan.



God bless,
Ted

Clizby WampusCat said:

Provide evidence that he wanted an unlawful violent takeover and we can discuss.

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He supported the violent insurrectionists who ransacked the Capitol. "We love you. You're very special." He never condemned them. Why not?

We'll see what all the text messages and voicemails from Jan 6 say, and what the White House visitor logs say. I wonder why Trump is trying to suppress them, and why they used burner phones to communicate. What could he be hiding? Why do they all refuse to testify?

Aldebaran said:

Are you referring to the conspiracy theory to overturn the election? How about we stick with actual facts?

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You should try that. But the topic is the travails of the current President, not the Badly Defeated Former President.

Aldebaran said:

FACT CHECK: FALSE!
the "mob" was already at the Capitol even before Trump's speech ended.
A timeline of how the Jan. 6 attack unfolded — including who said what and when

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Might be a better fact check if it actually addresses what I wrote. Note that i never said anything about where his rioters were, just what the ex-president said.

Hi @RestoreTheJoy

RestoreTheJoy said:

Here’s all the US military equipment that likely ended up in Taliban hands

Click to expand...

Let's, for a moment, say that your neighbor's home had been broken into. You're concerned about your neighbor and so you loan them a gun to protect themselves with in case it happens again and perhaps they are threatened themselves. Two weeks later the neighbor's home is broken into again and this time the intruder finds the gun and steals it along with whatever else he takes. Is it your fault the intruder winds up with your gun?

You were just doing what you thought was a good deed for your neighbor to help protect themselves.

To bring this around to your linked 'evidence' concerning this matter, first of all the title of the articles says 'likely'. Let's be sure that we understand what that word means when used in a sentence. It is not a word that defines a sure fact. It is a word that is making an assumption that whatever is being discussed is 'probably' applicable. So, the article starts out claiming that all that you are about to read about, while not surely the case, is 'likely' the case.

Secondly, almost all of what is discussed as to what military material is 'likely' in the hands of the Taliban, is admitted as being material that was given over for the protection of the Afghani government that was in power. Just like your neighbor, who for whatever reason didn't secure your firearm, the Afghani government was the entity responsible for such seized military equipment being in the hands of the 'thief'.

You then follow the tenuous thread of ownership all the way up to the President of the United States and make it all his fault. I'm curious, why isn't it the fault of the weapons manufacturers who made the weapons and gave them over to the U.S. government in the first place.

Finally, you article supports some of what I've claimed in a few of my posts. This 'fact' that the U.S. leaves a lot of stuff around and that it gets in the wrong hands has been a practice for quite some time. As the article states, as far back as at least 2016 reports were made that a lot of stuff was going missing and was finding its way into the hands of the enemy.

A 2016 Pentagon audit revealed that poor record-keeping and regulations had allowed nearly half of the 1.5 million weapons provided to Iraqi and Afghan security forces since 2002 to go missing, including nearly 978,000 M4 and M16s, while a 2014 SIGAR report found that some 43 percent of weapons provided to the ANDSF likely ended up in the hands of groups like the Taliban or ISIS. There is also plenty of ammo missing from former Afghan government stockpiles.

While I understand and agree that a lot of military armaments and materials are now in the hands of the Taliban regime ruling in Afghanistan, I have a hard time understanding that such a fact is somehow the deliberate work of our current president. I believe that history proves that this 'fact' is pretty much a 'fact' in every conflict in which we are involved in that lasts for many years. I also believe that it isn't a fair judgment to blame the current administration for what the Afghani government did with the weapons that we supplied them with, long after they were given the weapons in the first place. Anytime a government falls, to the victor go the spoils. That's such a 'fact of life' that it's actually a trusted saying.

But, you see me as a 'fan' of Pres. Biden and you see Pres. Biden as an enemy to you who is against all that you believe in. All of that is ok, of course, but the 'facts' that you are using to bolster such an understanding are pretty thin. You also are going on nothing but shear imagination, that had the former guy been given the opportunity to complete the plan that he set in place for withdrawing from Afghanistan, that plan would have been one wit different than it actually worked out to be. Let me ask you, what was Trump's plan for how the day, May 1st, was going to go?

God bless,
Ted

miamited said:

Hi @RestoreTheJoy



I don't know that I'd classify myself as a Biden 'fan', but I get your point. I did vote for him in the general election. I just like good sound government that is run by responsible and respectful people.

I would say that everything in your copied statement of what the administration said is correct. We don't know how much military gear was left on the ground. We never do. It's just piles and piles of stuff that no one wants to take the trouble and expense to bring back and it happens, as I've previously said, in pretty much every military skirmish that we are involved in. Certainly ones that take 10-20 years to reach completion. A lot of stuff gets scattered about and a lot stuff is deemed not worth bringing back. I would also again say that whatever the Taliban gained from what we gave to the Afghanistan government that was in power when we left, is not our responsibility to police.

I have also readily admitted that everyone that was in on the decision making process was somewhat surprised at the speed with which the Afghani government capitulated and that is just too bad. Only God knows the future, the rest of us just guess at it the best that we can. As far as your imagining that we left soldiers to die in Afghanistan, that is not a true statement. The 12 soldiers who died in the bomb attack while we were leaving, were not left to die. There were American soldiers standing toe to toe with them and they died in an attack just as some several hundred soldiers had before them while we were still in country. You're correct that only God knows how many were left behind, but you seem to be trying your best to make it appear that you know, also

Anyway, you are free to call me a Biden fan, I don't take offense. Personally, I'd much rather be a Biden fan than a Trump fan.



God bless,
Ted

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Again, I do appreciate the actual discussion of the issues you are engaging in. Thank you. I'm an independent, not a Trump fan or a Biden fan, by the way.

Do you honestly feel our government is currently run by "responsible and respectful people" though? Have you listened to all the diatribes by the Squad and the Vice President and Reps like Maxine Waters against other Americans who don't agree with them, support the police, etc? I don't call that respectful at all. Harris et. al. was bailing out the BLM/Antifa rioters as fast as they were getting arrested, while campaigning for VP. I guess we have different definitions.

Trump was obnoxious and wrote rude tweets, no doubt, but his policies were not insane, allowing millions of people to overrun the border bringing in drugs and trafficking women and children, about which he has done absolutely NOTHING, even though the state governors along the border have been screaming for help. He - and Harris - won't even go there. 50,000 were supposed to report back to ICE who were let in, and they are gone with the wind, as everyone knew would happen. NO covid vaccines were required for these people who entered the country and were flown all over, left in different states by the Biden Administration, while Biden was simultaneously chastising the American people every single day on TV to get vaccines!

The rational approach to Afghanistan - and what anyone else would have done - is get the equipment out, get the allies out, and then get the soldiers out. Biden did the reverse and just abandoned Americans, allies, and equipment, which the Taliban obviously took over. Who didn't see that coming?

Here's an interesting FactCheck: How Many Americans and Allies Are Left in Afghanistan? - FactCheck.org

On Aug. 18, President Joe Biden said if there were U.S. citizens left in Afghanistan on Aug. 31 who wanted to leave, “we’re gonna stay to get them all out.” But that’s not what happened when the last U.S. soldier departed the country.

Biden broke that promise. But how many Americans are left? The White House puts the figure at 100 to 200, while one Republican lawmaker suggested the figure was much higher. We’ll take a look at what we know and don’t know about these numbers, as well as estimates on how many Afghans who aided U.S. forces still want to leave.

miamited said:

Hi @RestoreTheJoy



Let's, for a moment, say that your neighbor's home had been broken into. You're concerned about your neighbor and so you loan them a gun to protect themselves with in case it happens again and perhaps they are threatened themselves. Two weeks later the neighbor's home is broken into again and this time the intruder finds the gun and steals it along with whatever else he takes. Is it your fault the intruder winds up with your gun?

You were just doing what you thought was a good deed for your neighbor to help protect themselves.

To bring this around to your linked 'evidence' concerning this matter, first of all the title of the articles says 'likely'. Let's be sure that we understand what that word means when used in a sentence. It is not a word that defines a sure fact. It is a word that is making an assumption that whatever is being discussed is 'probably' applicable. So, the article starts out claiming that all that you are about to read about, while not surely the case, is 'likely' the case.

Secondly, almost all of what is discussed as to what military material is 'likely' in the hands of the Taliban, is admitted as being material that was given over for the protection of the Afghani government that was in power. Just like your neighbor, who for whatever reason didn't secure your firearm, the Afghani government was the entity responsible for such seized military equipment being in the hands of the 'thief'.

You then follow the tenuous thread of ownership all the way up to the President of the United States and make it all his fault. I'm curious, why isn't it the fault of the weapons manufacturers who made the weapons and gave them over to the U.S. government in the first place.

Finally, you article supports some of what I've claimed in a few of my posts. This 'fact' that the U.S. leaves a lot of stuff around and that it gets in the wrong hands has been a practice for quite some time. As the article states, as far back as at least 2016 reports were made that a lot of stuff was going missing and was finding its way into the hands of the enemy.

A 2016 Pentagon audit revealed that poor record-keeping and regulations had allowed nearly half of the 1.5 million weapons provided to Iraqi and Afghan security forces since 2002 to go missing, including nearly 978,000 M4 and M16s, while a 2014 SIGAR report found that some 43 percent of weapons provided to the ANDSF likely ended up in the hands of groups like the Taliban or ISIS. There is also plenty of ammo missing from former Afghan government stockpiles.

While I understand and agree that a lot of military armaments and materials are now in the hands of the Taliban regime ruling in Afghanistan, I have a hard time understanding that such a fact is somehow the deliberate work of our current president. I believe that history proves that this 'fact' is pretty much a 'fact' in every conflict in which we are involved in that lasts for many years. I also believe that it isn't a fair judgment to blame the current administration for what the Afghani government did with the weapons that we supplied them with, long after they were given the weapons in the first place. Anytime a government falls, to the victor go the spoils. That's such a 'fact of life' that it's actually a trusted saying.

But, you see me as a 'fan' of Pres. Biden and you see Pres. Biden as an enemy to you who is against all that you believe in. All of that is ok, of course, but the 'facts' that you are using to bolster such an understanding are pretty thin. You also are going on nothing but shear imagination, that had the former guy been given the opportunity to complete the plan that he set in place for withdrawing from Afghanistan, that plan would have been one wit different than it actually worked out to be. Let me ask you, what was Trump's plan for how the day, May 1st, was going to go?

God bless,
Ted

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Now you are moving the goalposts though. Me voluntarily handing a weapon to a neighbor -and training him on how to use it for self-defense - is not at all the same as abandoning millions in equipment and weapons to someone whom I knew (or should have known) would be quickly overrun by an enemy to use to kill other people including my own countrymen and allies. And while ostensibly the weapons were "left for Afghans" (if you buy that), we all - even Biden -still knew the Taliban would take over and take it all, though Biden didn't have the prescience to understand that this would be immediate.

You saw the hundreds of photos and videos I am sure, of the equipment being used and in the hands of the Taliban. That's hardly a "likely" when you see it yourself. Biden knew or should have known full well what would happen - he's been in Congress for 50+ years! Yet he was caught completely shocked and out of his element yet again.

He is simply doing a terrible job and we need someone that other countries will listen to, not push back against, like Putin is doing now. If Biden gets us in another war on top of all the other debacles, he should be removed.

Hi @RestoreTheJoy

Obviously that's your understanding and you're free to hold it. BTW just for the record, the 'likely' wasn't that the Taliban had some U.S. military weapons and gear, but rather the word was addressing whether or not the Taliban had an entire group of weapons and military gear.

God bless,
Ted

Hi @RestoreTheJoy

RestoreTheJoy said:

Do you honestly feel our government is currently run by "responsible and respectful people" though?

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To be fair, this discussion is only about one person of the government. However, to answer your question, no! I don't think that 'all' of the people in our government are responsible and respectful people. I would, however, choose Rep. Marjorie Green as my model of such lack rather than 'the squad'. However, I'm also pragmatic enough to understand that the very idea of getting some 600 people (legislators and senators) who are all responsible and respectful people in office at one time is likely something that only God could do. Humans are too full of sin and wickedness to elect representatives based solely on that criteria.

RestoreTheJoy said:

...but his policies were not insane, allowing millions of people to overrun the border bringing in drugs and trafficking women and children, about which he has done absolutely NOTHING, even though the state governors along the border have been screaming for help.

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All of that is the Kool-Aide version. Our borders are not being overrun by drugs and trafficked women and children. Yes, there are a lot of people trying to cross our border, but the vast, vast majority of them are just people and families looking for a better life than the one they've lived in their home country. But that they are all or most somehow a part of a crime network or intention is patently false. As to your remark about the governors of states along the border, again that statement reflects only a few states. Yes, governor Abbot of Texas has been quite vociferous as to his position on immigration as it stands today. However, other states feel differently on the issue.

• A majority of Californians (60%) believe that illegal immigrants should be allowed to apply for work permits.
• Although hotly debated, most studies find illegal immigrants have little impact on the wages and employment of U.S. workers.

BTW, going back to Texas, the city of El Paso, which sits squarely on the border seems to have a fine working relationship with both legal and illegal immigration.

Immigration has been a fact of life for several centuries now. There was a time that we took in pretty much anyone who showed up on our front stoop. Today, of course, due to citizen control and some amount of safety concern, we want to know 'who' an immigrant is before allowing them to live here. But immigration was even practiced in the Scriptures and it was never condemned or spoken poorly of. People move around. This idea that everyone has to live in the country in which they were born has never been an agreed upon 'fact'. As far as God is concerned, the whole earth is His and He doesn't ever seem to have a problem with migration of people or families upon the face of it.

The real problem, as I see it, is that we Americans are basically greedy people and the real fear that drives our concerns against immigration is that such groups of people are going to take something from us. They're going to steal our jobs. They're going to use up our government supplied resources. They don't pay taxes to support the host government and so they are freeloaders. All of this has really been pretty much debunked in actual studies that look into the respective matters. We are just a fearful and greedy lot as a whole, and don't want to have to share any of our 'blessings' with other human beings that we hold as being less desirable than we are.

RestoreTheJoy said:

The rational approach to Afghanistan - and what anyone else would have done - is get the equipment out, get the allies out, and then get the soldiers out.

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While that may seem rational in your mind, it is not the way that it has ever been done. Not in the history of the U.S. military war actions, have we spent some period of time getting the equipment out. As far as I'm aware, the allies did come out with us. Yes, we take out equipment that is important or of some sensitive nature, but anyone who thinks that we've ever left an arena of war and taken every firearm and tank and flamethrower and grenade out before leaving just doesn't know the history of the American military.

Vietnam: ARMS LEFT BY U.S (Published 1975)

If you read the article, you'll notice that 'the people' leveled the same charges against the administration of that day as others are leveling against the current administration. So, it happens and often a lot of people aren't happy about it, but the facts are that it happens. In 2014 a report was made of all the U.S. weaponry that the Islamic state took from the old American supported Iraqi government. It happens! Get over it! It's done and finished!! Was it perfect? Of course not. It was a plan conceived by men and such plans are always subject to second guessing and some faults. That's life!

God bless,
Ted