Your epistemology

Clizby WampusCat said:

This is not good evidence and here's why. People attribute a changed life to Allah, Buddhism, secular therapy, sheer will, etc. So how can I possibly know what was the real reason someone had a changed life. To believe that your life change was due to the Holy Spirit I would need some kind of evidence that linked the two and evidence that the Holy Spirit exists. You cannot say my life change is due to the Holy Spirit and that the proof that the Holy Spirit exists is my changed life.

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What would "some kind of evidence" look like to you? Inasmuch as a believer's interaction with the Holy Spirit is a supernatural event, immaterial, and so, inaccessible to empirical distillation, what evidence a Christian might supply of their personal experience of the Holy Spirit could simply be dismissed out-of-hand by the non-believer as "subjective" (as it often is by atheists, in my experience).

It would require some knowledge of the Christian believer over time in order to assess well the change that God has worked in them, don't you think? I can claim God has changed my life, but apart from being witness to that change yourself, on what would you rely in order to accept my claim as true? Too often, atheists challenging Christians in this area want a sort of mechanical, empirical reduction of the Christian's relationship with God, as though, at bottom, this is all their relationship is: mechanical cause and effect. While this is somewhat in play in every relationship, the complexity of the give-and-take between the believer and God, as in all relationships, can't always be readily reduced in this way.

What marks the work of the Holy Spirit in a Christian's life:

- a purification of desire, thought and action. That is, the believer's life comes more and more into line with the holy nature of the Spirit, reflecting him rather than the selfish, fleshly inclinations of natural human impulse, as time passes.
- the believer comes to desire, over time, the things of God with increasing intensity, often at the expense of self-centered, body-oriented, immediate interests.
- the believer remains settled and content despite dramatically changing circumstances, maintaining an equanimity anchored in their relationship with God, that hardship and pain does not dissolve.
- the personal experience of God progressively expands and deepens, enlarging the believers faith, increasing their love for Him, and their joy in communion with Him.

And so on.

At bottom, it isn't mere change - positive or otherwise - that is the aim of God's work in a person's life. As you say, change can happen by dint of many different things. What really marks out the transformation of a believer by the Holy Spirit is the increased knowledge they have of God's character and truth in their lives, as a result. This is the real end of the change God enacts in the life of one of His own, not change for its own sake, mere moralism and religiosity.

God says we will experience conviction from Him, from His Spirit, about our sin. Not mere guiltiness, but a keen desire to rid ourselves of the sin that hinders our experience and enjoyment of God.

God says in His word the Christian will be enlightened to His truth more and more as they study His truth under the illuminating power of His Spirit. This isn't just an expansion in theological knowledge, but the believer seeing at progressively deeper and deeper levels how God's truth applies to their living and to reality generally. Enlightenment isn't merely intellectual but practical, informing and shaping every aspect of the believer's life.

God says in the Bible that His Spirit strengthens in times of temptation and testing. He doesn't merely shore up the believer struggling against sinful desires, but delivers them out of temptation, out of the grip of temptation entirely as they submit to His will and way in the midst of temptation. I have experienced this many, many times; not just a help in enduring temptation but a lifting of me out of the grip of temptation completely. As Scripture says, in the Spirit there is freedom, not just support in order to continue the struggle.

God says He will comfort the hurting believer, stabilizing and encouraging them in the midst of trouble. This isn't a fleeting feeling of hope but an enduring confidence in God in the middle of pain and suffering, a solid, steady peace, impervious to erosion, coming from God, assuring His child that He is there and loves them.

And so on.

aiki said:

What would "some kind of evidence" look like to you? Inasmuch as a believer's interaction with the Holy Spirit is a supernatural event, immaterial, and so, inaccessible to empirical distillation, what evidence a Christian might supply of their personal experience of the Holy Spirit could simply be dismissed out-of-hand by the non-believer as "subjective" (as it often is by atheists, in my experience).

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The alternative is to believe any believer that claims they have had an encounter with the Holy Spirit and any other religious experience they claimed is the cause of changing their life. This clearly leads to believing false things. It is not my fault that the Holy Spirit works in ways that cannot be verified by other people. It is not dismissed out of hand. It is dismissed because it is logically fallacious to believe the claim without sufficient evidence.

It would require some knowledge of the Christian believer over time in order to assess well the change that God has worked in them, don't you think? I can claim God has changed my life, but apart from being witness to that change yourself, on what would you rely in order to accept my claim as true? Too often, atheists challenging Christians in this area want a sort of mechanical, empirical reduction of the Christian's relationship with God, as though, at bottom, this is all their relationship is: mechanical cause and effect. While this is somewhat in play in every relationship, the complexity of the give-and-take between the believer and God, as in all relationships, can't always be readily reduced in this way.

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Even if I could see the change in a believer, how do I know the Holy Spirit is the cause? When I see a person change something in their life and claims the Holy Spirit is the cause it looks the same as if Allah or willpower or secular counseling is the cause. What evidence is there that it is the Christian Holy Spirit?

What marks the work of the Holy Spirit in a Christian's life:

- a purification of desire, thought and action. That is, the believer's life comes more and more into line with the holy nature of the Spirit, reflecting him rather than the selfish, fleshly inclinations of natural human impulse, as time passes.
- the believer comes to desire, over time, the things of God with increasing intensity, often at the expense of self-centered, body-oriented, immediate interests.
- the believer remains settled and content despite dramatically changing circumstances, maintaining an equanimity anchored in their relationship with God, that hardship and pain does not dissolve.
- the personal experience of God progressively expands and deepens, enlarging the believers faith, increasing their love for Him, and their joy in communion with Him.

And so on.

At bottom, it isn't mere change - positive or otherwise - that is the aim of God's work in a person's life. As you say, change can happen by dint of many different things. What really marks out the transformation of a believer by the Holy Spirit is the increased knowledge they have of God's character and truth in their lives, as a result. This is the real end of the change God enacts in the life of one of His own, not change for its own sake, mere moralism and religiosity.

God says we will experience conviction from Him, from His Spirit, about our sin. Not mere guiltiness, but a keen desire to rid ourselves of the sin that hinders our experience and enjoyment of God.

God says in His word the Christian will be enlightened to His truth more and more as they study His truth under the illuminating power of His Spirit. This isn't just an expansion in theological knowledge, but the believer seeing at progressively deeper and deeper levels how God's truth applies to their living and to reality generally. Enlightenment isn't merely intellectual but practical, informing and shaping every aspect of the believer's life.

God says in the Bible that His Spirit strengthens in times of temptation and testing. He doesn't merely shore up the believer struggling against sinful desires, but delivers them out of temptation, out of the grip of temptation entirely as they submit to His will and way in the midst of temptation. I have experienced this many, many times; not just a help in enduring temptation but a lifting of me out of the grip of temptation completely. As Scripture says, in the Spirit there is freedom, not just support in order to continue the struggle.

God says He will comfort the hurting believer, stabilizing and encouraging them in the midst of trouble. This isn't a fleeting feeling of hope but an enduring confidence in God in the middle of pain and suffering, a solid, steady peace, impervious to erosion, coming from God, assuring His child that He is there and loves them.

And so on.

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This is all a claim that does not have sufficient evidence to be believed.

Malcolm X attributed his life change to Islam and Allah. Do you believe him?

Clizby WampusCat said:

The alternative is to believe any believer that claims they have had an encounter with the Holy Spirit and any other religious experience they claimed is the cause of changing their life. This clearly leads to believing false things. It is not my fault that the Holy Spirit works in ways that cannot be verified by other people. It is not dismissed out of hand. It is dismissed because it is logically fallacious to believe the claim without sufficient evidence.

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And, say, if a person claimed that the influence of their pen-pal, writing to them from the other side of the globe, a person they had never seen or spoken directly to, had changed their life, would you offer the same skepticism? Is it logically fallacious for such a claim to be made if you can't verify such a claim according to your mechanistic cause-effect inquiry? I don't think so.

I'm a Christian and don't accept from other believers just any old claim they want to make of having had an encounter with the Holy Spirit. What they claim must comport with the description the Bible gives of the common, normal experience of the Spirit. If their claim lines up with the biblical description, then I'm inclined to give it weight, but if not, I feel no obligation to take their claim seriously. There is, then, an objective, authoritative standard to which I can hold the claims of fellow believers regarding their experience of God. I certainly find this helps weed out the wild claims some Christians make about their interactions with the Holy Spirit.

Clizby WampusCat said:

Even if I could see the change in a believer, how do I know the Holy Spirit is the cause?

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If I say my wife has had a profound transforming effect upon my life, but can offer you no single concrete, empirically-verifiable instance as evidence of this claim, is my claim necessarily false? Of course not. It doesn't follow that an unproven claim is necessarily a false one. And anyway, how, exactly, would you test what would necessarily be a past event between my wife and I that might have occurred, say, entirely through a spoken exchange of which there is no recording and for which there is no formal documentation? You'd just have to take my word for it that my claim is true. This doesn't make my claim therefore fallacious or false, though, only very difficult to prove in the empirical way you want. There are, though, many things that are true that we can't submit to empirical examination in a test tube, or on a weigh-scale, or under a microscope. Much of what we would call recorded human history falls into this category. So would the laws of logic and many of the unprovable "brute givens" upon which scientific investigation rests.

Clizby WampusCat said:

When I see a person change something in their life and claims the Holy Spirit is the cause it looks the same as if Allah or willpower or secular counseling is the cause. What evidence is there that it is the Christian Holy Spirit?

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You'd have to get much closer, I think, to both the Muslim and the Christian in order to properly examine their experiences in a legitimately comparative way. Sitting back in your armchair, philosophizing at a very removed distance about the fundamental indiscernibility of their claims to change by divine power, is hardly sufficient to arrive at a sound conclusion about their claims. I know both Muslims and Christians personally and can tell you that the spiritual content of their lives and its effects upon them are profoundly different. I've also encountered men whose lives had been managed by secular therapies and strategies but who found a whole other power for change in their walk with God. Again, up close, the differences between changes made under the counsel of modern secular therapy and those made by the power of God are extremely evident. But not from a 10,000-foot-high, birds-eye perspective.

Clizby WampusCat said:

This is all a claim that does not have sufficient evidence to be believed.

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And this is the common retort of an atheist who, when confronted with evidence, wants to pretend it doesn't exist. The evidence exists, all right, just not the exact kind the prejudiced atheist wants to accept. "I'm not convinced" is often the refuge of the atheist, thinking that their own peculiar standard of evidence, that they can shift about as they like, is protection against the evidence a Christian offers, somehow negating it, as though "I'm not convinced" is a magic spell against unwanted, inconvenient evidence. Not so.

Clizby WampusCat said:

Malcolm X attributed his life change to Islam and Allah. Do you believe him?

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Depends upon how he claimed he was changed by Allah and Islam and in what ways.

Clizby WampusCat said:

As you wish. I know that you are sincere but if you go back and look at our conversation I think you will see that you never addressed any of my issues directly. Every post was a presentation of the gospel message and not a response to my arguments. Also, can't you see how frustrating it is when I finally read the sermon you wanted me to read and when I did and commented on it you ended the conversation? In my opinion you would be more effective by addressing the concerns of non believers.




Best wishes.

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Clizby,

You asked us, believers, for evidence that convinced us to believe God exists and that the bible is true.

You have disputed/rejected every answer in every post from a Christian.

You said in post #27 that :"I don't allow people to tell me things about myself that are not true. I really don't believe god exists no matter what you say and I am not wicked no matter what slanderous things you say about me. I am a person that has done good and bad things. Please don't label me as wicked."

There it is; evidence that you are not looking for answers from Christians.

My LAST and FINAL words to you regarding this matter is this:

If I am wrong in my belief that God is real, that the bible is true, and Jesus is our hope of eternal life then I have nothing to lose & have no regrets. I will live my life, die, and that will be the end for me.

But, if you are wrong in your unbelief, then you have everything to lose.

Eternity is a LONG time!

John

aiki said:

And, say, if a person claimed that the influence of their pen-pal, writing to them from the other side of the globe, a person they had never seen or spoken directly to, had changed their life, would you offer the same skepticism? Is it logically fallacious for such a claim to be made if you can't verify such a claim according to your mechanistic cause-effect inquiry? I don't think so.

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I would believe the change happened due to the interaction by the pen pal. That is not an extraordinary claim and if I wanted, I am sure I could see the evidence of the letters and even track down the person that wrote them.

I'm a Christian and don't accept from other believers just any old claim they want to make of having had an encounter with the Holy Spirit. What they claim must comport with the description the Bible gives of the common, normal experience of the Spirit. If their claim lines up with the biblical description, then I'm inclined to give it weight, but if not, I feel no obligation to take their claim seriously. There is, then, an objective, authoritative standard to which I can hold the claims of fellow believers regarding their experience of God. I certainly find this helps weed out the wild claims some Christians make about their interactions with the Holy Spirit.

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It does not. There are Christians that do not believe the entire bible is true or inspired by God but still say they have interactions with the Holy Spirit. Also, the Bible has not been substantiated to be from a God. Using the bible as a standard only works if yo can give good evidence that the bible should be the standard. There is no good reasons to believe it is.

If I say my wife has had a profound transforming effect upon my life, but can offer you no single concrete, empirically-verifiable instance as evidence of this claim, is my claim necessarily false? Of course not. It doesn't follow that an unproven claim is necessarily a false one.

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I never said a claim of interaction with the Holy Spirit is false. It just cannot be substantiated to be true. If I don't believe someone's interaction with the HS is true, that does not mean that I think it is false.

And anyway, how, exactly, would you test what would necessarily be a past event between my wife and I that might have occurred, say, entirely through a spoken exchange of which there is no recording and for which there is no formal documentation? You'd just have to take my word for it that my claim is true. This doesn't make my claim therefore fallacious or false, though, only very difficult to prove in the empirical way you want. There are, though, many things that are true that we can't submit to empirical examination in a test tube, or on a weigh-scale, or under a microscope. Much of what we would call recorded human history falls into this category. So would the laws of logic and many of the unprovable "brute givens" upon which scientific investigation rests.

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I would believe you. The reason is that it is not an extraordinary claim and I have experience that wives can change a persons life for the better. I know mine has. It also would have little affect on my life if you were lying to me. Lets say that my life depended on it if I believed you and it was false. Then I would need more and better evidence. If the HS was real then I would have to reconsider a lot in my life so I would need more and better evidence to believe you.

You'd have to get much closer, I think, to both the Muslim and the Christian in order to properly examine their experiences in a legitimately comparative way. Sitting back in your armchair, philosophizing at a very removed distance about the fundamental indiscernibility of their claims to change by divine power, is hardly sufficient to arrive at a sound conclusion about their claims.

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That is why I do not believe them. I also don't think they are false claims. They just fall into claims I cannot verify are true.

I know both Muslims and Christians personally and can tell you that the spiritual content of their lives and its effects upon them are profoundly different. I've also encountered men whose lives had been managed by secular therapies and strategies but who found a whole other power for change in their walk with God. Again, up close, the differences between changes made under the counsel of modern secular therapy and those made by the power of God are extremely evident. But not from a 10,000-foot-high, birds-eye perspective.

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So what? How do I know one or any of them are due to a god interaction?

And this is the common retort of an atheist who, when confronted with evidence, wants to pretend it doesn't exist. The evidence exists, all right, just not the exact kind the prejudiced atheist wants to accept. "I'm not convinced" is often the refuge of the atheist, thinking that their own peculiar standard of evidence, that they can shift about as they like, is protection against the evidence a Christian offers, somehow negating it, as though "I'm not convinced" is a magic spell against unwanted, inconvenient evidence. Not so.

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Look what you have done here. You have inoculated yourself against finding truth. For any non believers objections, instead of having to address the objections directly, you can just say they just don't want to believe and ignore their arguments. So should they make a good and logical objection you will never know it.

Depends upon how he claimed he was changed by Allah and Islam and in what ways.

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ok

ldonjohn said:

Clizby,

You asked us, believers, for evidence that convinced us to believe God exists and that the bible is true.

You have disputed/rejected every answer in every post from a Christian.

You said in post #27 that :"I don't allow people to tell me things about myself that are not true. I really don't believe god exists no matter what you say and I am not wicked no matter what slanderous things you say about me. I am a person that has done good and bad things. Please don't label me as wicked."

There it is; evidence that you are not looking for answers from Christians.

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My response was to this post

Clare73 said:

My Bibe states what what may be known about God is plain were it not for the wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

It all sounds pretty right to me. . .we all get to bear the consequences of our choices.

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Clare73 was telling me what I actually believed. That she knew better than me what I believed. This was the context of my comment. That even though the bible says I believe I do not believe. Not a general comment that I don't want to believe no matter what the evidence presented is. Just that the bible does not dictate what I believe.

I gave reasoned responses to your comments and claims that you never did respond to directly. I want to know what is true I wonder if you do.

My LAST and FINAL words to you regarding this matter is this:

If I am wrong in my belief that God is real, that the bible is true, and Jesus is our hope of eternal life then I have nothing to lose & have no regrets. I will live my life, die, and that will be the end for me.

But, if you are wrong in your unbelief, then you have everything to lose.

Eternity is a LONG time!

John

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What if Allah is the true God? Then you will be in trouble.

Clizby WampusCat said:

I would believe the change happened due to the interaction by the pen pal. That is not an extraordinary claim and if I wanted, I am sure I could see the evidence of the letters and even track down the person that wrote them.

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Interesting. On what grounds would you believe the claim that change had happened by such interaction?

Even if you could track down the pen pal and read the letters, how would either thing substantiate my claim to being changed by the influence of the pen pal? The claim to being changed is what is at issue, not the existence of the pen pal or the exchange of letters.

Clizby WampusCat said:

It does not. There are Christians that do not believe the entire bible is true or inspired by God but still say they have interactions with the Holy Spirit.

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It may be so that there are such "Christians" as you describe here, but I - not these others - find it very helpful to use the descriptions of the Bible as a measuring stick against claims to interactions with the Holy Spirit.

In my view, people claiming to be Christian who deny the inspiration of the Bible and reject as true portions of it, are not Christians. As far as I'm concerned, the Bible tells us what a Christian is and this involves a trust in the Bible as the inspired word of God, true, without error in its original form.

Clizby WampusCat said:

Also, the Bible has not been substantiated to be from a God.

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Obviously, I think it has.

Clizby WampusCat said:

Using the bible as a standard only works if yo can give good evidence that the bible should be the standard. There is no good reasons to believe it is.

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I disagree. The Bible, in my view, has a very clear divine stamp upon it. Why?

Fulfilled prophecy.
Thematic unity.
Historical accuracy.
Survivability.
Impact on individuals and nations.
Sheer literary quality.
Explanatory power.

Cumulatively, these things give me good cause to believe the Bible is what it claims to be: the word of God.

Clizby WampusCat said:

I never said a claim of interaction with the Holy Spirit is false. It just cannot be substantiated to be true. If I don't believe someone's interaction with the HS is true, that does not mean that I think it is false.

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Glad to see you acknowledge this distinction.

Clizby WampusCat said:

I would believe you. The reason is that it is not an extraordinary claim and I have experience that wives can change a persons life for the better. I know mine has. It also would have little affect on my life if you were lying to me. Lets say that my life depended on it if I believed you and it was false. Then I would need more and better evidence. If the HS was real then I would have to reconsider a lot in my life so I would need more and better evidence to believe you.

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Can you tell me where the number 7 exists? Where in space and time do I find the number seven? Not collections that total seven or the written symbol for the number 7 but the immaterial entity that we call "seven." It doesn't have an exact physical location in time and space or attributes we can examine under a microscope but we all still agree the number 7 exists. Likewise the Holy Spirit. I can no more point you to the exact location of the Holy Spirit than I can the location of the number 7, nor can he be studied like a bug or a rock, but, like the number 7, he exists nonetheless as a real but immaterial entity.

Granted, the number 7 has no personal agency and makes no claims upon you as your Maker and God; but the mere inaccessibility of the Holy Spirit to empirical observation by no means makes him an extraordinary proposition. What, then, does?

Clizby WampusCat said:

That is why I do not believe them. I also don't think they are false claims. They just fall into claims I cannot verify are true.

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Well, then, you are simply offering a description of your psychological state-of-affairs, and the limits of your knowledge, not establishing anything objectively true about the Christian's claim to knowing and experiencing God.

Clizby WampusCat said:

So what? How do I know one or any of them are due to a god interaction?

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But the "So what?" response can be made to your inability to secure a certain knowledge of a Christian's experience of God. Your inability doesn't in any way dissolve or diminish their experience of God.

Clizby WampusCat said:

Look what you have done here. You have inoculated yourself against finding truth. For any non believers objections, instead of having to address the objections directly, you can just say they just don't want to believe and ignore their arguments. So should they make a good and logical objection you will never know it.

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But this isn't what I've done, actually. I've observed in many interactions with atheists that as the evidence for the Christian worldview and experience piles up, they simply respond with "I'm not convinced." But this isn't actually an assertion about the nature or existence of the evidence but of the unwillingness of the atheist to acknowledge the evidence. Pointing this out, drawing attention to this tactic, doesn't equate to an ad hoc, universal rejection of the atheist's perspective and challenges, however.

aiki said:

Interesting. On what grounds would you believe the claim that change had happened by such interaction?

Even if you could track down the pen pal and read the letters, how would either thing substantiate my claim to being changed by the influence of the pen pal? The claim to being changed is what is at issue, not the existence of the pen pal or the exchange of letters.

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I agree with you here. I don't have a good reason to be 100% convinced. But I do not find it extraordinary that another person can help you become a better person. I have experienced this in my own life. Not all claims are equal and don't need to be equally evaluated.

It may be so that there are such "Christians" as you describe here, but I - not these others - find it very helpful to use the descriptions of the Bible as a measuring stick against claims to interactions with the Holy Spirit.

In my view, people claiming to be Christian who deny the inspiration of the Bible and reject as true portions of it, are not Christians. As far as I'm concerned, the Bible tells us what a Christian is and this involves a trust in the Bible as the inspired word of God, true, without error in its original form.

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Ok, but you don't get to decide who is and who is not a Christian. When someone labels themselves as anything I believe them and respect their labels going forward.

Obviously, I think it has.



I disagree. The Bible, in my view, has a very clear divine stamp upon it. Why?

Fulfilled prophecy.
Thematic unity.
Historical accuracy.
Survivability.
Impact on individuals and nations.
Sheer literary quality.
Explanatory power.

Cumulatively, these things give me good cause to believe the Bible is what it claims to be: the word of God.

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All of these can be said about the Quran as well.

Glad to see you acknowledge this distinction.

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Of course.

Can you tell me where the number 7 exists? Where in space and time do I find the number seven? Not collections that total seven or the written symbol for the number 7 but the immaterial entity that we call "seven." It doesn't have an exact physical location in time and space or attributes we can examine under a microscope but we all still agree the number 7 exists. Likewise the Holy Spirit. I can no more point you to the exact location of the Holy Spirit than I can the location of the number 7, nor can he be studied like a bug or a rock, but, like the number 7, he exists nonetheless as a real but immaterial entity.

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The number 7 is a concept. You are claiming that the HS is real and does exist in time and space since the bible states the HS is in the believer. Or are you saying the HS is just a concept?

Granted, the number 7 has no personal agency and makes no claims upon you as your Maker and God; but the mere inaccessibility of the Holy Spirit to empirical observation by no means makes him an extraordinary proposition. What, then, does?

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Yes, the claim that the HS exists is extraordinary unless you are claiming the HS is just a concept. If the HS was confirmed to exist, then everyone's worldview on the planet would change, even Christians. That requires better evidence than if you claim a pen pal changed your life in some way.

Well, then, you are simply offering a description of your psychological state-of-affairs, and the limits of your knowledge, not establishing anything objectively true about the Christian's claim to knowing and experiencing God.

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I agree. I have never said anything different. I don't have good evidence that the HS exists and I don't have good evidence that the HS does not exist.

But the "So what?" response can be made to your inability to secure a certain knowledge of a Christian's experience of God. Your inability doesn't in any way dissolve or diminish their experience of God.

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Sigh, I never said it did and I have said this many times in our discussion. The fact that I cannot determine form the evidence given if the HS exists does not mean it does not exist. But is also not my fault that the only evidence ever given by Christians is unverifiable.

But this isn't what I've done, actually. I've observed in many interactions with atheists that as the evidence for the Christian worldview and experience piles up, they simply respond with "I'm not convinced." But this isn't actually an assertion about the nature or existence of the evidence but of the unwillingness of the atheist to acknowledge the evidence. Pointing this out, drawing attention to this tactic, doesn't equate to an ad hoc, universal rejection of the atheist's perspective and challenges, however.

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Yes you do when you dismiss my objections because of your interactions with other atheists. You have determined that you are right and any objections to your assertions are due to the unwillingness of atheists to acknowledge the evidence. That is untrue and inoculates you to possible truth. Having objections to the evidence is not unwillingness to acknowledge it. I am an atheist because I evaluated my Christian beliefs and found that I did not have good reasons to believe they were true. If there are good reasons to believe in a god I will have no choice but to believe.

The fact that your reasons for believing the the Christian god are the same reasons that another person can believe in their different god should at least make you think of why your reasons are sound and theirs are not.