Your epistemology

[Clare73]

Hey, Clizby, John here. I hope I can explain some things about the comments I made.

I said: The atheists aren't looking for the truth about God, consequently, they don't find it.

First, I want to explain that my opinion of atheists expressed in the above statement is the result of an online encounter I had with some atheists on another Christian website, and that was my first experience with debating atheists. One of them asked a question about Christians and I responded not knowing that I was setting myself up for an endless debate. After many exchanges between that atheist and myself I finally realized that she wasn't interested in finding an answer to her question, but she was baiting Christians to draw them into an endless debate which would provide her the opportunity to show her contempt for the Christian & for their God. Other atheists joined the exchange between me & her, and the conversations turned into a vicious attack on me and on my beliefs. You said: This is untrue for me at least and almost every atheist I know. I want to know if God exists and the characteristics of that God. Sounds like you believe I need the Holy Spirit to give me the evidence I need. So all I can do is wait for that evidence.
I wish I could explain God to you, wish I could explain faith, wish I could explain how the Holy Spirit works in unbelievers, wish I could provide the evidence to you that would convince you to “believe,” but, unfortunately, I cannot do that. Only God can do that, and you consider that to be circular reasoning.

I hope you understand the before a Christian becomes a “believer” he/she was an unbeliever just like you are an unbeliever. Before becoming a Christian, I was a real hard case doubter & skeptic about the truth of the bible and about the existence of God, but something changed my mind about myself & about the truth of the bible. By the way, that is what “repentance” really means; it is a “change of mind” about ones need regarding sin & forgiveness & about God's way of redeeming mankind back to himself. I think “fear” was what drove me to seek the truth, and I believe God put that fear in me; fear that I could be wrong about my unbelief, and a fear that if I was wrong then I could be facing a tragic future.

I am not a bible scholar; not a minister, not a preacher; nothing but an old forgiven lost wicked sinner who found the truth about the matter of God's way of forgiving & changing the lives of all who would seek after Him.

The only evidence of the Holy Spirit I can give you is that of His working in the life of an unbeliever like myself, to convince them of the truth of the bible, of the existence of God, and to bring the unbeliever out of the darkness of unbelief into the light of the Gospel. I agree with you that the process I just described sounds like “circular reasoning,” but the difference in the way you see circular reasoning and the process I am describing is that when the Holy Spirit is at the center of that circle then the unbeliever is given the ability to understand the truth of the Gospel message, and that is the evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit in that unbeliever's life. I am describing how that process worked in my life at a time when I was completely & totally blind to the truth of the bible, and thought I could never know the truth of the matter until I was dead, and that thought scared the you know what out of me. but at the same time I was desperate to know the truth & was willing to accept that truth if whatever it was convinced me that it was true. (Sorry, but I realize that my explanation probably doesn't make sense to you, but I don't know any other way to explain it right now.)

John 16:13-14, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” 14: He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”

That scripture is saying that the Holy Spirit will work in an unbeliever's heart/mind, or whatever you want to call the inside of a person, to give them the ability to see & to understand the truth about God.

Characteristics of God: I will list some of those below, but there are more that can be found in scripture.

God is Holy, Good, Just, Righteous, Faithful, Infinite.

God is Patient, 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

You said “ So all I can do is wait for that evidence. “ No, you must seek God as though knowing Him is more important to you than anything else if life. God is waiting for you to do your part. When He sees that you are seeking Him in earnest, and you are looking to Him for answers, and that you will not give up on Him until you find Him, then the Holy Spirit can begin His work in you.

I hope I haven't said anything to offend you. My purpose is to maybe in some way help you to see the importance of looking to God for your answers instead of debating Christians. You can know God. Even though you aren't certain that God exists, you can still seek after Him. He knows your heart, your intent, your motive. To look to God for answers means to search his word, the bible, expecting to find your answer, and not giving up until you have found whatever it is you need so that you can see & understand the simple truth of the Gospel message. And,

God won't be offended if you ask Him for help as you search for your answers. While being uncertain that God was there to hear me, I did that myself right before I opened that bible to the Book of John and started reading chapter 1. By the time I had read through chapter 6 the Holy Spirit had given me the answers I was so desperately seeking.

Would you believe the deal was closed for me in Leviticus 19?

 

[ldonjohn]

Would you believe the deal was closed for me in Leviticus 19?

Yes, of course I believe that God works in the hearts of people in different ways to draw them to believe the Gospel. I encourage people, unbelievers who are seeking answers, to read the Gospel of John & sometimes the book of Romans, but I know God speaks to people throughout the entire bible.

John

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I wish I could explain God to you, wish I could explain faith, wish I could explain how the Holy Spirit works in unbelievers, wish I could provide the evidence to you that would convince you to “believe,” but, unfortunately, I cannot do that. Only God can do that, and you consider that to be circular reasoning.

If God provides the evidence I need that is what I would consider good evidence to believe not circular reasoning. I have asked God this many many times. The circular reasoning I was referring to was the claim that the existence of the universe is evidence for God and God is the reason the Universe exists.

The only evidence of the Holy Spirit I can give you is that of His working in the life of an unbeliever like myself, to convince them of the truth of the bible, of the existence of God, and to bring the unbeliever out of the darkness of unbelief into the light of the Gospel. I agree with you that the process I just described sounds like “circular reasoning,” but the difference in the way you see circular reasoning and the process I am describing is that when the Holy Spirit is at the center of that circle then the unbeliever is given the ability to understand the truth of the Gospel message, and that is the evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit in that unbeliever's life.

It is not circular if God provides the evidence to believe and you know it was from God. I never said that it was. The problem is that I was a Christian for 18 years and believed the HS gave me the evidence to believe just as you stated above. What I started to realize when I was losing my faith was that the reasons for my beliefs were all flawed and when I searched for reasons to believe I found them all flawed as well. When I begged God to show me the evidence it never came and after 2 years or so I can only conclude that God does not want me to believe or He does not exist.

I am describing how that process worked in my life at a time when I was completely & totally blind to the truth of the bible, and thought I could never know the truth of the matter until I was dead, and that thought scared the you know what out of me, but at the same time I was desperate to know the truth & was willing to accept that truth if whatever it was convinced me that it was true. (Sorry, but I realize that my explanation probably doesn't make sense to you, but I don't know any other way to explain it right now.)

Were you scared that that Islam might be true or fearful that yezidism may be true?

John 16:13-14, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” 14: He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”

That scripture is saying that the Holy Spirit will work in an unbeliever's heart/mind, or whatever you want to call the inside of a person, to give them the ability to see & to understand the truth about God.

If this is true then it is up to God not me.

Characteristics of God: I will list some of those below, but there are more that can be found in scripture.

God is Holy, Good, Just, Righteous, Faithful, Infinite.

God is Patient, 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

I disagree that the God described in the Bible is good or just but that is another discussion.

You said “ So all I can do is wait for that evidence. “ No, you must seek God as though knowing Him is more important to you than anything else in life. God is waiting for you to do your part. When He sees that you are seeking Him in earnest, and you are looking to Him for answers, and that you will not give up on Him until you find Him, then the Holy Spirit can begin His work in you.

I have done this. But I can almost guarantee that you won't believe me. Whenever I describe my faith journey and how I lost my faith the Christian always finds one thing that I did not do right. I have an actual list of 22 things that Christians over the past two years have said as to why God will not give me good enough evidence for belief. My experience is that no matter what I say the Christian will find a reason why God did not respond and it will be my fault. Most on that list are not biblical. The Bible says seek and yo will find. Not seek and X and Y ad Z etc. and you will find.

I hope I haven't said anything to offend you.

I am not offended. I hope I have not offended you. I am just being honest about my experience and thoughts. My entire family and friends are Christians so I have no animosity toward Christians but I do not agree with their beliefs.

My purpose is to maybe in some way help you to see the importance of looking to God for your answers instead of debating Christians. You can know God. Even though you aren't certain that God exists, you can still seek after Him. He knows your heart, your intent, your motive. To look to God for answers means to search his word, the bible, expecting to find your answer, and not giving up until you have found whatever it is you need so that you can see & understand the simple truth of the Gospel message. And, God won't be offended if you ask Him for help as you search for your answers. While being uncertain that God was there to hear me, I did that myself right before I opened that bible to the Book of John and started reading chapter 1. By the time I had read through chapter 6 the Holy Spirit had given me the answers I was so desperately seeking.

All I can say is that I have done this and I am still an atheist. You can either believe me or not.

 

[ldonjohn]

Clizby WampusCat,

Again, I will try to explain myself.

You said, "It is not circular if God provides the evidence to believe and you know it was from God. I never said that it was."

The "circular reasoning" argument came from other atheists in another Christian website. Sorry I brought that up in this thread.

Sometimes I have a difficult time explaining things, and of course, I explain things from my own perspective. I forget that God works in people in different ways, and that means He might use different scriptures and/or different life experiences to draw someone to "believe."

I can't prove that the bible is true or that God exists. All I have is the "message" of the Gospel presented in the bible. Before I became a believer I was a doubter, a skeptic, about any of the bible being true. But, the Holy Spirit convinced me that I could trust in that message without questioning whether or not is was true. I accept it and believe it. Sometimes I will have a doubt or a fear, but when those doubts or fears attack my assurance/peace then I have learned to immediately think about the cross. That is my way of telling Satan to leave me alone.

Notice, I said that I think about the cross. I don't look at "me," because I will not find any assurance or peace in my own heart. Our hearts will condemn us, but God, through the message of the cross forgives us.

I need to add that the Holy Spirit didn't come to help me until I began an earnest search for the truth about the bible & about God. I had a fear that Christians knew something about the bible & about God that I had missed. I didn't know what that was, and thought I would never find it. I believe the Holy Spirit used that fear to draw me to begin that search.

It's as simple as that.

Regards,

John

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Clizby WampusCat,

Again, I will try to explain myself.

You said, "It is not circular if God provides the evidence to believe and you know it was from God. I never said that it was."

The "circular reasoning" argument came from other atheists in another Christian website. Sorry I brought that up in this thread.

Sometimes I have a difficult time explaining things, and of course, I explain things from my own perspective. I forget that God works in people in different ways, and that means He might use different scriptures and/or different life experiences to draw someone to "believe."

I can't prove that the bible is true or that God exists. All I have is the "message" of the Gospel presented in the bible. Before I became a believer I was a doubter, a skeptic, about any of the bible being true. But, the Holy Spirit convinced me that I could trust in that message without questioning whether or not is was true. I accept it and believe it. Sometimes I will have a doubt or a fear, but when those doubts or fears attack my assurance/peace then I have learned to immediately think about the cross. That is my way of telling Satan to leave me alone.

Notice, I said that I think about the cross. I don't look at "me," because I will not find any assurance or peace in my own heart. Our hearts will condemn us, but God, through the message of the cross forgives us.

I need to add that the Holy Spirit didn't come to help me until I began an earnest search for the truth about the bible & about God. I had a fear that Christians knew something about the bible & about God that I had missed. I didn't know what that was, and thought I would never find it. I believe the Holy Spirit used that fear to draw me to begin that search.

It's as simple as that.

Regards,

John

I do appreciate the response. You say you cannot prove that God exists, I assume you mean you cannot prove God exists to me but God has provided you enough evidence that He exists. I have done all I can, more than most Christians I know, to ask God to provide me evidence He exists.

If this scripture is true:

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles. 1 Tim 2:1-7 NIV

Then God can do that for me. I have no power to make Him do it. I sought out God with all I had when I was losing my faith and God never intervened to keep me from disbelief. You can blame me if you want but I know what I did and I know either God does not want me to know He exists yet or that He does not exist. Either way I cannot do any more than I have done. If that is not enough for God then that says something about God, not me.

 

[ldonjohn]

I do appreciate the response. You say you cannot prove that God exists, I assume you mean you cannot prove God exists to me but God has provided you enough evidence that He exists. I have done all I can, more than most Christians I know, to ask God to provide me evidence He exists.

If this scripture is true:

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles. 1 Tim 2:1-7 NIV

Then God can do that for me. I have no power to make Him do it. I sought out God with all I had when I was losing my faith and God never intervened to keep me from disbelief. You can blame me if you want but I know what I did and I know either God does not want me to know He exists yet or that He does not exist. Either way I cannot do any more than I have done. If that is not enough for God then that says something about God, not me.

Just a thought: Perhaps God has not revealed himself to you in the way you expect because he wants you to have faith in him. IOW, God wants you to simply trust his word without question.
Seems to me that you do have a desire to know God which I think means that God IS attempting to draw you to Himself.

Hey, don't give up on God. He does want you to know Him. You will find Him in His Word, the Bible. The bible can be confusing, especially when you hear someone use a scripture taken out of context to make some kind of point about Christianity, whether good or bad. I am not any kind of bible expert, there is much I do not know or understand, but I do understand the main message of scripture which is the Gospel. I have learned that the meaning of much of scripture depends on the intended audience, the culture, the language, etc. and that when someone takes a verse from the bible without looking at the whole purpose of the particular book or chapter, that the meaning can be misinterpreted.

You might look into the teachings of the late evangelist Dr. John R Rice. One of his sermons "How to Come to Jesus" is a short simple explanation about how anyone who wants to become a believer can do so.

Hope you will not give up on God.

John

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Just a thought: Perhaps God has not revealed himself to you in the way you expect because he wants you to have faith in him. IOW, God wants you to simply trust his word without question.
Seems to me that you do have a desire to know God which I think means that God IS attempting to draw you to Himself.

Hey, don't give up on God. He does want you to know Him. You will find Him in His Word, the Bible. The bible can be confusing, especially when you hear someone use a scripture taken out of context to make some kind of point about Christianity, whether good or bad. I am not any kind of bible expert, there is much I do not know or understand, but I do understand the main message of scripture which is the Gospel. I have learned that the meaning of much of scripture depends on the intended audience, the culture, the language, etc. and that when someone takes a verse from the bible without looking at the whole purpose of the particular book or chapter, that the meaning can be misinterpreted.

You might look into the teachings of the late evangelist Dr. John R Rice. One of his sermons "How to Come to Jesus" is a short simple explanation about how anyone who wants to become a believer can do so.

Hope you will not give up on God.

John

I don't think you have been listening to what I have been saying. But I appreciate the concern. Believing something before there is good evidence for belief is not a good epistemology. It will lead you to false beliefs. And no one can just believe anything without being convinced that it is true. Can you have faith that the moon is made from cheese?

If begging God in agony over losing my faith is not enough "heart" or "sincere enough" for God then that says more about God than me.

 

[ldonjohn]

I don't think you have been listening to what I have been saying. But I appreciate the concern. Believing something before there is good evidence for belief is not a good epistemology. It will lead you to false beliefs. And no one can just believe anything without being convinced that it is true. Can you have faith that the moon is made from cheese?

If begging God in agony over losing my faith is not enough "heart" or "sincere enough" for God then that says more about God than me.

What evidence would convince you that the bible is true?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

What evidence would convince you that the bible is true?

I don't know and that is not how beliefs should work. How can I answer that if I don't know all the potential evidence that is possible? All I can do is evaluate claims and see if the evidence for those claims convinces me. What evidence do you have that the Bible is true?

Also, God should know what would convince me, so He can just provide that if He likes.

 

[ldonjohn]

I don't know and that is not how beliefs should work. How can I answer that if I don't know all the potential evidence that is possible? All I can do is evaluate claims and see if the evidence for those claims convinces me. What evidence do you have that the Bible is true?

Also, God should know what would convince me, so He can just provide that if He likes.

I have already explained the evidence God provided for me to believe so I see no need to repeat it.

God does know what will convince you to believe and you will probably find that in his word, but you must search for it. Also, there might be something said by another Christian, or something you might read somewhere that God would use to convince you to believe. That is one treason I suggested you read the short sermon by Dr Rice, or another sermon he wrote about believing. I can't tell you where you will find that convincing moment, but you will never find it if you don't search for it. God is not going to just hand it to you and say "here is your convincing moment, now you can believe." He gave all of us free will to choose to either believe Him or to not believe Him; the ball is in your court; it is YOUR choice. You either believe him or you don't.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I have already explained the evidence God provided for me to believe so I see no need to repeat it.

Ok, then you have evidence that God only gave you. That is fine but that is not good evidence for anyone else.

God does know what will convince you to believe and you will probably find that in his word, but you must search for it.

I have done that for many years.

Also, there might be something said by another Christian, or something you might read somewhere that God would use to convince you to believe. That is one treason I suggested you read the short sermon by Dr Rice, or another sermon he wrote about believing. I can't tell you where you will find that convincing moment, but you will never find it if you don't search for it.

I probably will not watch this. Not because I am not searching but because I cannot watch and read every video and book a Christian recommends for me. Also, you said I will find what I am looking for in the Bible, why then do I need a video? I don't get why Christians want me to read book written by sinful people to explain a perfect book inspired by God?

God is not going to just hand it to you and say "here is your convincing moment, now you can believe."

Why not? God says so in the Bible. I would quote scripture here but last time I did you just waived it away saying I took it out of context but never explained how I did that.

He gave all of us free will to choose to either believe Him or to not believe Him; the ball is in your court; it is YOUR choice. You either believe him or you don't.

I cannot truly believe something that I am not convinced of. Neither can you. Belief is not a choice. Again, can you believe by faith the moon is made of cheese or just have faith that Allah is the true God? You said yourself that you believe because God has shown you good evidence to believe. That is all I am asking Him to do for me.

 

[ldonjohn]

You asked Christians to give you the evidence that God provided them that he exists. We have done that, but you cannot accept our answer because you don't believe God exists. Why then, do you ask Christians to explain their beliefs, if you don't believe them? Doesn't make sense, unless you are just looking to debate Christians.

Before I end my contributions to this debate, I want to say a few last words.

First, I want to address your statement here:

“I probably will not watch this. Not because I am not searching but because I cannot watch and read every video and book a Christian recommends for me. Also, you said I will find what I am looking for in the Bible, why then do I need a video? I don't get why Christians want me to read book written by sinful people to explain a perfect book inspired by God?”

Here you are adding something to my statement that I did not say, “Also, you said I will find what I am looking for in the Bible, why then do I need a video?”; I said nothing about a video. Then you said, “I don't get why Christians want me to read book written by sinful people to explain a perfect book inspired by God?”

First, God uses people, born-again Christians, to teach & preach the truth of His Word. (Romans 10:13-14; KJV) Born-again Christians are still sinners, but have been forgiven. The sermon by, DR Rice, that I suggested you read would not take you any longer to read than it takes you to read the posts on this thread. Then you say “to explain a perfect book inspired by God?” Well, if you think the bible is a perfect book inspired by God, then why don't you believe it is true?

I first responded to your post because you asked Christians to explain to you how God revealed Himself to them. You asked “So what evidence did the Holy Spirit give you that convinced you? I explained how the Holy Spirit worked in my life to convince me that God is real and the bible is true. I will add that the evidence that the Holy Spirit has worked in the life of an unbeliever to convince that person to “believe” is a changed life; a new life that is centered in the truth of God's Word; not centered in “self.”

You are not going to find evidence that will prove to you that God exists by debating Christians on a website.

Regards,

John

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You asked Christians to give you the evidence that God provided them that he exists. We have done that, but you cannot accept our answer because you don't believe God exists.

No. I don't accept your evidence because it is not sufficient for belief. I have not decided to not believe, I don't believe because I am not convinced by the evidence. You don't seem to want to discuss the evidence but just give your reasons and blame me for not believing them.

Why then, do you ask Christians to explain their beliefs, if you don't believe them? Doesn't make sense, unless you are just looking to debate Christians.

I ask Christians for evidence for their beliefs because I want to know what is true and what is false. If God exists I want to know, they claim to have the evidence.

Before I end my contributions to this debate, I want to say a few last words.

First, I want to address your statement here:

“I probably will not watch this. Not because I am not searching but because I cannot watch and read every video and book a Christian recommends for me. Also, you said I will find what I am looking for in the Bible, why then do I need a video? I don't get why Christians want me to read book written by sinful people to explain a perfect book inspired by God?”

Here you are adding something to my statement that I did not say, “Also, you said I will find what I am looking for in the Bible, why then do I need a video?”; I said nothing about a video. Then you said, “I don't get why Christians want me to read book written by sinful people to explain a perfect book inspired by God?”

First, God uses people, born-again Christians, to teach & preach the truth of His Word. (Romans 10:13-14; KJV) Born-again Christians are still sinners, but have been forgiven. The sermon by, DR Rice, that I suggested you read would not take you any longer to read than it takes you to read the posts on this thread.

I think I got confused by your post and another's post wanting me to watch a video.

Then you say “to explain a perfect book inspired by God?” Well, if you think the bible is a perfect book inspired by God, then why don't you believe it is true?

I don't believe it is perfect but many Christians do. So why would someone that professes the bible is perfect also want me to read a book by a sinful person to explain a perfect book? The fact is I have read many books and sermons about the evidence for God. In fact I go to church every week with my family, so I get the message every week. I know you think it is somehow my fault that God, the ruler of the universe, won't give me evidence that He exists, but I know different.

I first responded to your post because you asked Christians to explain to you how God revealed Himself to them. You asked “So what evidence did the Holy Spirit give you that convinced you? I explained how the Holy Spirit worked in my life to convince me that God is real and the bible is true. I will add that the evidence that the Holy Spirit has worked in the life of an unbeliever to convince that person to “believe” is a changed life; a new life that is centered in the truth of God's Word; not centered in “self.”

And this evidence is not sufficient for me to believe. I have not been given this evidence by God like you have. A Muslim can and do say the same thing you did here, why should I not then believe them instead?

You are not going to find evidence that will prove to you that God exists by debating Christians on a website.

That seems to be the case but how can you possibly know this?

 

[aiki]

Hello.

I heard many times on this forum and elsewhere, that it doesn’t matter what you like to believe or want God to be like, it’s objective truth that matters. Discover truth and if you’re satisfied it’s true, accept it. Be brave and honest enough to face truth. Great piece of advice.

But then what’s your criteria for something to be true? At which point do you say “this is true” and “that is an error” or maybe even “that’s a lie”?

There’re things we can decide more or less easily about, such as, “today’s Wednesday” or “it’s a glass”, but others not so easy - “God exists” or “Jesus is a myth”, for example.

I know there can’t be one size fits all universal approach to all and any information.

What are your approaches in regards to faith?

What makes something true?

Correspondence to Reality. Does the claim 2+2=4 correspond to reality? Yes. Two stones added to two more stones is four stones in total. The same is true regardless of the objects added together. Is a cloudless sky in the daytime blue? Yes. Simply look up and observe that it is (unless you're color-blind). Is addiction to cocaine a healthy, life-improving thing? No. Simply see how the cocaine addict carries on, growing more and more destructive in their pursuit of their next "fix," ruining relationships, their physical well-being, and finances in order to briefly enjoy the effects of the drug. The reality is that cocaine addiction renders a person less healthy, ultimately less improved in their life. Does Marxism lead to the betterment of a society? The reality observed in attempt after attempt to enact this political/ideological system in a society is impoverishment, State totalitarianism and a general stultifying of innovation, the creative arts, literature and philosophy.

Some things, however, must be granted as so, as true, without being able to prove they are:

- Reality exists and we can know it.
- Our senses, physical and cognitive, correctly communicate the nature of Reality to us.
- Reality functions in a relatively consistent, repeatable way over time such that we can infer from past events to present and future ones.

And so on.

Such unprovable truths are called "brute givens" and underpin both science and philosophy, anchoring epistemology and methods of reasoning.

If the statement "God exists" corresponds to what is evident in the nature of Reality, it is just as certain a statement as "Today is Wednesday." The entire project of Natural Theology is to demonstrate that the stamp of the divine is readily apparent in the nature of Reality. Such theology is incredibly robust, making as sure the fact of God's existence as the claim of the day of the week one is presently in.

www.reasonablefaith.org
www.crossexamined.org
www.str.org
www.coldcasechristianity.com

I think the correspondence view of truth, of reality, is the best view of reality in part because it is universally-applicable to knowledge/truth claims.

 

[ldonjohn]

No. I don't accept your evidence because it is not sufficient for belief. I have not decided to not believe, I don't believe because I am not convinced by the evidence. You don't seem to want to discuss the evidence but just give your reasons and blame me for not believing them.

I ask Christians for evidence for their beliefs because I want to know what is true and what is false. If God exists I want to know, they claim to have the evidence.

I think I got confused by your post and another's post wanting me to watch a video.


I don't believe it is perfect but many Christians do. So why would someone that professes the bible is perfect also want me to read a book by a sinful person to explain a perfect book? The fact is I have read many books and sermons about the evidence for God. In fact I go to church every week with my family, so I get the message every week. I know you think it is somehow my fault that God, the ruler of the universe, won't give me evidence that He exists, but I know different.

And this evidence is not sufficient for me to believe. I have not been given this evidence by God like you have. A Muslim can and do say the same thing you did here, why should I not then believe them instead?

That seems to be the case but how can you possibly know this?

Clezby, the evidence of the Holy Spirit's work in a believer is a changed life.
To "believe" requires a transfer of trust from yourself to the finished work of Christ on the cross.
God's way of reaching out to unbelievers is that they hear the gospel message which says that they, and all of us, are eternally separated from God because of sin, therefore we cannot be in the presence of a Holy God. But God wants us, everyone, to become as righteous as He is righteous, so we CAN be in His presence.
The problem is that we owe God a debt, a sin debt that separates us from Him. God required that the penalty for that debt is to be paid by the death of someone who never sinned, which means that we cannot pay that debt ourselves.
(Don't ask me to explain that; you'll have to talk to God about it.)
The only way for God's plan to work was for Him to become a man so He could pay the penalty Himself. Jesus was God who became a man as the Son of God. Since He was, and still is, God, He cannot sin, therefore he was the only man who ever lived who qualified to pay the sin debt for everyone else. The rest of the story is the message of the cross; the Gospel. Jesus paid that sin debt for us' He purchased a pardon for us with His blood.
Without quoting scriptures, in the Gospel of John Jesus said that the will of God, the Father, is the we believe the one whom He sent, Jesus the Son. Jesus went on to say that before anyone could believe in him, God would have to draw them to Him, Jesus. And that God draws men to Jesus when they hear about Him by teaching them about Jesus.
He finally said that anyone who is drawn to him by God the Father, and comes to Him to receive that pardon, forgiveness, that He will not turn anyone away.
The question is, do you believe Jesus. Not, do you believe He exists, the devil believes Jesus exists. Do you believe that He will accept you if you come to Him to receive his pardon? It is matter of trust. A matter of transferring trust from you to Him. That does not require great faith; it requires that you see your need to be forgiven and are willing to trust the message that He paid your sin debt, in full, on the cross.
The facts are recorded in the bible, God requires faith in that message; faith that says "God said it, and I believe it without question."

You only need enough faith to ask Jesus to give you that pardon and give you the new heart that will change your life, and then believe Him to do what He said he will do; He will not turn you away.
You can believe the Christian bible, or you can believe other religions; that is your choice. The Christian God will not force Himself on you. He has given you His Word, He gave His Son, and He gave His Spirit. Don't blame Christians for your lack of evidence that will convince you that God is real. All we can do is point you to the source of our evidence, the bible. If you reject all that God has done for you, then you have no excuse for remaining separated from God.

In about the same amount of time it took you to read this post, you could have read the short sermon by Dr Rice which explains thing much better that I can explain them, and He is no more of a sinner than I am.

Regards
John

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Clezby, the evidence of the Holy Spirit's work in a believer is a changed life.

This is not good evidence and here's why. People attribute a changed life to Allah, Buddhism, secular therapy, sheer will, etc. So how can I possibly know what was the real reason someone had a changed life. To believe that your life change was due to the Holy Spirit I would need some kind of evidence that linked the two and evidence that the Holy Spirit exists. You cannot say my life change is due to the Holy Spirit and that the proof that the Holy Spirit exists is my changed life.

To "believe" requires a transfer of trust from yourself to the finished work of Christ on the cross.
God's way of reaching out to unbelievers is that they hear the gospel message which says that they, and all of us, are eternally separated from God because of sin, therefore we cannot be in the presence of a Holy God. But God wants us, everyone, to become as righteous as He is righteous, so we CAN be in His presence.
The problem is that we owe God a debt, a sin debt that separates us from Him. God required that the penalty for that debt is to be paid by the death of someone who never sinned, which means that we cannot pay that debt ourselves.
(Don't ask me to explain that; you'll have to talk to God about it.)
The only way for God's plan to work was for Him to become a man so He could pay the penalty Himself. Jesus was God who became a man as the Son of God. Since He was, and still is, God, He cannot sin, therefore he was the only man who ever lived who qualified to pay the sin debt for everyone else. The rest of the story is the message of the cross; the Gospel. Jesus paid that sin debt for us' He purchased a pardon for us with His blood.
Without quoting scriptures, in the Gospel of John Jesus said that the will of God, the Father, is the we believe the one whom He sent, Jesus the Son. Jesus went on to say that before anyone could believe in him, God would have to draw them to Him, Jesus. And that God draws men to Jesus when they hear about Him by teaching them about Jesus.
He finally said that anyone who is drawn to him by God the Father, and comes to Him to receive that pardon, forgiveness, that He will not turn anyone away.
The question is, do you believe Jesus. Not, do you believe He exists, the devil believes Jesus exists. Do you believe that He will accept you if you come to Him to receive his pardon? It is matter of trust. A matter of transferring trust from you to Him. That does not require great faith; it requires that you see your need to be forgiven and are willing to trust the message that He paid your sin debt, in full, on the cross.
The facts are recorded in the bible, God requires faith in that message; faith that says "God said it, and I believe it without question."

You only need enough faith to ask Jesus to give you that pardon and give you the new heart that will change your life, and then believe Him to do what He said he will do; He will not turn you away.

I understand the gospel message.

You can believe the Christian bible, or you can believe other religions; that is your choice.

To believe anything is not a choice. We are either convinced by the evidence or we are not convinced. We cannot choose to believe something. Can you choose to believe the sun is 10 miles away from the earth? Probably not because the evidence does not support that and you are not convinced. No amount of effort to believe it will make you actually believe it.

The Christian God will not force Himself on you.

God can give me sufficient evidence for me to believe without forcing me to do anything. If I believed He existed I can then choose to follow Him or not. That would be a choice I can make with good information to make it.

He has given you His Word, He gave His Son, and He gave His Spirit.

There is not sufficient evidence to believe these claims are true.

Don't blame Christians for your lack of evidence that will convince you that God is real.

I am not blaming Christians. If God exists it is His fault.

All we can do is point you to the source of our evidence, the bible. If you reject all that God has done for you, then you have no excuse for remaining separated from God.

I am not rejecting anything. I cannot reject the gospel if I don't believe it is true. This is my point. If God showed me the gospel was true then I could make a choice to follow god or not with an informed decision.

In about the same amount of time it took you to read this post, you could have read the short sermon by Dr Rice which explains thing much better that I can explain them, and He is no more of a sinner than I am.

Ok I give in. I read the sermon. It gives no good evidence it is just a gospel presentation.

How to Come to Jesus - By Evangelist John R. Rice

Here is a quote from it:

Well, then it is clear that if you want to come to Christ, God put that desire in your heart. If you feel guilt over your sins, God put that consciousness of your need and your guilt in your heart to bring you to Jesus. If the Holy Spirit is dealing with you, striving with you, warning and convicting you, that is God drawing you toward Jesus Christ. He has offered you to Jesus Christ, and if you will come, you will not be rejected!

He says that God puts the desire in us. So how can I be blamed for not believing if God is the one that is supposed to convict me of my sin?

Also,

But how will I know that He has received me?" someone asks. Why, poor foolish man or woman, can you not believe what Jesus said? Do you want more evidence than the solemn promise of the Son of God? You will honor the signature of men on a check, you will believe a printed guarantee of a company: then are you willing to risk the plain promise of the Son of God Himself, written down here in the Bible?

Yes, I want better evidence than the promise of a deity that will not give me evidence that it even exists. I don't think that is too much to ask and it is a wise move to get evidence before belief.

You see, you do not need any further evidence. Ho, there will be plenty of things to encourage your heart and to give further assurance later, but the thing to do now is simply to believe what Jesus said and risk everything upon His honor. He who loved you so much, He who never lied, He who died to save sinners, He who has been running you down so long and pleading with you to be saved - surely, surely He will not reject you, will not deny you, will not fail you now when you come!

Yes I do. Nobody else gets to tell another what evidence should convince them of any proposition. A promise from someone that I am told existed by other people is not good enough evidence in my opinion. What is stopping God from telling me the gospel message himself? It is clearly not me from the first quote I posted from Dr. Rice's Sermon. Why is it a bad idea for God to come here and make sure we understand the gospel message and can make an informed decision whether to have our sins forgiven and follow God?

 

[ldonjohn]

I'm OK with you having the last word in our debate, and I see no reason to continue.

Regards,

John

 

[angelsaroundme]

People filter information through confirmation bias, most of them unconsciously.

"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values. People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes. The effect is strongest for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched beliefs."

This is true for religion, politics, and everything else. It's why debating is usually pointless. If I interpret the Bible a certain way it rarely matters if I have as many, or more, sources to support that than another view. The other person will continue to ignore those sources or in their own mind discredit them somehow.

If I had evidence that showed dinosaurs were fabricated to support evolution, just as an example, most wouldn't want to give me the time of day. Because people like the idea of dinosaurs, they've been taught about dinosaurs since they were an infant, and most people believe in dinosaurs so they'd face ostricization for thinking differently.

God shows the world one way to an individual, and another way to the next, and so on.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I'm OK with you having the last word in our debate, and I see no reason to continue.

Regards,

John

As you wish. I know that you are sincere but if you go back and look at our conversation I think you will see that you never addressed any of my issues directly. Every post was a presentation of the gospel message and not a response to my arguments. Also, can't you see how frustrating it is when I finally read the sermon you wanted me to read and when I did and commented on it you ended the conversation? In my opinion you would be more effective by addressing the concerns of non believers.

Best wishes.

 

[James_Lai]

People filter information through confirmation bias, most of them unconsciously.

"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values. People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes. The effect is strongest for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched beliefs."

This is true for religion, politics, and everything else. It's why debating is usually pointless. If I interpret the Bible a certain way it rarely matters if I have as many, or more, sources to support that than another view. The other person will continue to ignore those sources or in their own mind discredit them somehow.

If I had evidence that showed dinosaurs were fabricated to support evolution, just as an example, most wouldn't want to give me the time of day. Because people like the idea of dinosaurs, they've been taught about dinosaurs since they were an infant, and most people believe in dinosaurs so they'd face ostricization for thinking differently.

God shows the world one way to an individual, and another way to the next, and so on.

Confirmation bias isn’t a jail without escape, I think. There have been big paradigm shifts in history of nations. One very popular example is geocentric and heliocentric cosmology.