Raised in the faith vs. accepted as adult

James_Lai · Dec 21, 2021

Hello.
I was raised as an atheist and everyone around me was an atheist. God was not a big factor for me. I became interested in religion when I was a student, mostly Christianity. I really like Christianity comparing to other religions. It’s what I’m most familiar with.

It seems to me that people who grew up Christians, believe in some ideas such as God or prayer or salvation as if it’s clear as daylight… It’s like it’s natural to them and they don’t need to think or to understand what it is, it’s a given.

For me, I can’t believe in anything unless I truly become convinced it’s true, and if I understand what it is and how it is and the purpose and meaning and overall picture and in details etc.

Talking more and more to Christians who grew up Christian, to them it’s like breathing. Even when I see that they don’t really understand or it actually doesn’t work the way they say. For example, if there’s a problem, pray. How about actions, planning, analysis of probabilities etc? No, pray. God will provide. God will heal. God will lead. Etc. To me it’s somewhat strange. I don’t see this happening in my or other people’s lives.

On the other hand, Jesus said, believe like little children. I guess it means sincerely, deeply and without a hint of a doubt.

Is such faith impossible for me as I have my worldview that only accepts what makes sense or experiential or logical etc? Not all things that are true necessarily make sense.

Maybe I missed the child indoctrination phase and so I’m not fit to be conditioned for religious faith?

Jake Arsenal · Dec 21, 2021

When you go to someone for advice regarding legitimate problems, people who tell you to pray are really telling you they don't care to help you. If they sincerely thought prayer was the solution, they would have stopped to pray with you (Matthew 18:20). Problems often require more than one response. While action is always important, talking to God about your problems and how best to solve them is the best way to develop your relationship with Him while also allowing Him to direct your paths (Proverbs 3:5-6).

As for believing like little children, I believe you misunderstand how children believe things. They do not believe without question. In fact, children are always asking, "Why?" Asking God questions is no more a sin than children asking their parents questions. (Mark 9:24) I personally think it is beneficial that you come to faith as an adult, avoiding the simplified Sunday school doctrines being espoused to children. The Gospel is a simple message, intended to be understood by the poor and uneducated. You don't need a lifetime of indoctrination in simplified versions of the Biblical narrative to have faith(Romans 10:17).

lismore · Dec 21, 2021

James_Lai said:
Hello.
Maybe I missed the child indoctrination phase and so I’m not fit to be conditioned for religious faith?

Hello James, Romans 10:12 is an interesting bible verse:

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich unto all who call upon Him.

In New Testament times Jews had been raised in the faith with a grounding in the Old Testament, Greeks not so- they were hearing many of these things for the first time. So similar to what you are describing.

But according to the bible reference above this is not a disadvantage. You shouldn't see your situation as a disadvantage. Just a different perspective- God doesn't show favouritism. Keep going, every day and in every way you will be learning and growing.

Sometimes those who were raised in the faith can take it for granted, not having the zeal and thirst for knowledge that a new convert has.

God Bless You

eleos1954 · Dec 21, 2021

James_Lai said:
Hello.
I’ve been raised as an atheist and everyone around me was an atheist. God was not a big factor for me. I became interested in religion when I was a student, mostly Christianity. I really like Christianity comparing to other religions. It’s what I’m most familiar with.

It seems to me that people who grew up Christians, believe in some ideas such as God or prayer or salvation as if it’s clear as daylight… It’s like it’s natural to them and they don’t need to think or to understand what it is, it’s a given.

For me, I can’t believe in anything unless I truly become convinced it’s true, and if I understand what it is and how it is and the purpose and meaning and overall picture and in details etc

Talking more and more to Christians who grew ip Christian, to them it’s like breathing. Even when I see that they don’t really understand or it actually doesn’t work the way they say. For example, if there’s a problem, pray. How about actions, planning, analysis of probabilities etc? No, pray. God will provide. God will heal. Etc. To me it’s somewhat strange

On the other hand, Jesus said, believe like little children. I guess it means sincerely deeply and without a hint of a doubt.

Is such faith impossible for me as I have my worldview that only accepts what makes sense or experiential or logical etc? Not all things that are true necessarily make sense.

Maybe I missed the child indoctrination phase and so I’m not fit to be conditioned for religious faith?

A young child is destitute of ambition, pride, and haughtiness and is therefore a good example to use. Children are characteristically humble and teachable. They aren’t prone to pride or hypocrisy. Children want to learn ... and in that it is a good approach as an adult studying to move forward with the basic characteristics of children.

His Word is indeed very deep ... that is why teaching often starts early in life, as a child.

Not much different than the beginning teachings of language, math, etc. (just different subject matter) that are introduced very early in a childs life.

What one is exposed to early in life comes from different sources, Christianity may or may not be one of them.

chevyontheriver · Dec 21, 2021

James_Lai said:
Hello.
I was raised as an atheist and everyone around me was an atheist. God was not a big factor for me. I became interested in religion when I was a student, mostly Christianity. I really like Christianity comparing to other religions. It’s what I’m most familiar with.

It seems to me that people who grew up Christians, believe in some ideas such as God or prayer or salvation as if it’s clear as daylight… It’s like it’s natural to them and they don’t need to think or to understand what it is, it’s a given.

For me, I can’t believe in anything unless I truly become convinced it’s true, and if I understand what it is and how it is and the purpose and meaning and overall picture and in details etc.

Talking more and more to Christians who grew up Christian, to them it’s like breathing. Even when I see that they don’t really understand or it actually doesn’t work the way they say. For example, if there’s a problem, pray. How about actions, planning, analysis of probabilities etc? No, pray. God will provide. God will heal. Etc. To me it’s somewhat strange.

On the other hand, Jesus said, believe like little children. I guess it means sincerely, deeply and without a hint of a doubt.

Is such faith impossible for me as I have my worldview that only accepts what makes sense or experiential or logical etc? Not all things that are true necessarily make sense.

Maybe I missed the child indoctrination phase and so I’m not fit to be conditioned for religious faith?

Faith and reason are compatible. But not everybody thinks so. You have supposed rationalists who are very against the faith. You have supposed Christians who are very against reason. Both see it as either/or. But it's both/and. So pray AND use your reason. If you can't rationally find your way to faith a prayer will assist your thinking. Don't come to faith irrationally but don't miss out on faith by acting all rationalist either. We can do both rationality and faith. They do support each other, at least in my book.

James_Lai · Dec 21, 2021

Jake Arsenal said:
When you go to someone for advice regarding legitimate problems, people who tell you to pray are really telling you they don't care to help you. If they sincerely thought prayer was the solution, they would have stopped to pray with you (Matthew 18:20). Problems often require more than one response. While action is always important, talking to God about your problems and how best to solve them is the best way to develop your relationship with Him while also allowing Him to direct your paths (Proverbs 3:5-6).

As for believing like little children, I believe you misunderstand how children believe things. They do not believe without question. In fact, children are always asking, "Why?" Asking God questions is no more a sin than children asking their parents questions. (Mark 9:24) I personally think it is beneficial that you come to faith as an adult, avoiding the simplified Sunday school doctrines being espoused to children. The Gospel is a simple message, intended to be understood by the poor and uneducated. You don't need a lifetime of indoctrination in simplified versions of the Biblical narrative to have faith(Romans 10:17).

I pray a lot. I don’t see any difference it’s the same if not prayed. Only planning and action and hard work make any difference. Prayer is confirmation basis or coincidence… Maybe like auto suggestion or therapy to sooth yourself or sit down in quietness and analyze things. They say prayer helps lower blood pressure, lower cortisol level and helps you think over your life problems that otherwise you might be neglecting or, worse, avoiding. So they say it’s the best kind of psychological therapy.

For faith, I read about very powerful placebo effect, sometimes providing a cure in cases of very bad medical conditions. I recently read one psychotherapist who said that we have a matrix of healthy body in our DNA which our mind does not have access to. But the subconscious mind does have access to it, and strong sincere faith can work miracles of self-heaing. Such faith is not found in our conscious rational mind, but somewhere within… I think maybe I’m incapable of it, because I analyze everything. Or in very hard circumstances, I was reading a memoir of a Chinese soldier that he experienced some true miracles of human abilities in battle in critical situation. Maybe out of utter desperation or in a certain changed state of mind, one switches on this control mode or a sort of a link from conscious to the subconscious to tap to the hidden resources of our organisms…

James_Lai · Dec 21, 2021

eleos1954 said:
A young child is destitute of ambition, pride, and haughtiness and is therefore a good example to use. Children are characteristically humble and teachable. They aren’t prone to pride or hypocrisy. Children want to learn ... and in that it is a good approach as an adult studying to move forward with the basic characteristics of children.

His Word is indeed very deep ... that is why teaching often starts early in life, as a child.

Not much different than the beginning teachings of language, math, etc. (just different subject matter) that are introduced very early in a childs life.

What one is exposed to early in life comes from different sources, Christianity may or may not be one of them.

The right state of mind! A certain attitude… Maybe also recognition of everything you know might be an error? Kind of try and come from a new slate to everything

James_Lai · Dec 21, 2021

lismore said:
Hello James, Romans 10:12 is an interesting bible verse:

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich unto all who call upon Him.

In New Testament times Jews had been raised in the faith with a grounding in the Old Testament, Greeks not so- they were hearing many of these things for the first time. So similar to what you are describing.

But according to the bible reference above this is not a disadvantage. You shouldn't see your situation as a disadvantage. Just a different perspective- God doesn't show favouritism. Keep going, every day and in every way you will be learning and growing.

Sometimes those who were raised in the faith can take it for granted, not having the zeal and thirst for knowledge that a new convert has.

God Bless You

Greeks weren’t atheists? I read when studying life in Roman empire and Hellenic culture they valued high morality, worshiped gods and also Platonic idea of the immortal soul was popular. Though in each province their culture and beliefs were uniquely mixed with local pre-Greek culture, such as in Ptolemaic Egypt. Or many Greek-speaking hellenized Jews in different corners of the empire were quite familiar with the OT as well via the Septuagint, or the Gentile people who were in contact with them.

James_Lai · Dec 21, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
Faith and reason are compatible. But not everybody thinks so. You have supposed rationalists who are very against the faith. You have supposed Christians who are very against reason. Both see it as either/or. But it's both/and. So pray AND use your reason. If you can't rationally find your way to faith a prayer will assist your thinking. Don't come to faith irrationally but don't miss out on faith by acting all rationalist either. We can do both rationality and faith. They do support each other, at least in my book.

How do we divide where rationality ends and where faith begins? I agree, everytging is so intertwined and interrelated

timf · Dec 22, 2021

There are those who completely trust in the faith system tradition they received from their parents. this is true for most religions. For Christians this risks that a child could grow to trust in his system rather than Christ.

Most parents strongly desire to see their children continue in the faith they were raised. My parents were disappointed when I turned away from the religion I was raised with.

I did not become an atheist as I saw this as another belief system. Rather I called myself an agnostic which I defined as having insufficient data.

It took a while to sort through various Christian doctrines so that they could make sense.

For example, the declarations that whatever you pray for you will get and being able to move mountains seem unachievable today. Even the thought of people today moving mountains seems incredibly dangerous.

However, If you consider that Jesus was describing the future kingdom in which the remnant of Israel would be changed to have the law written in their hearts, Then you can imagine a people that could be trusted with such power.

One feels sadness for those Christians today attempting to apply those statements to themselves only to be continually disappointed.

It can be very helpful to consider pronouns as to who is saying what to whom. Also if what is being said applies to past, present or future.

chevyontheriver · Dec 22, 2021

James_Lai said:
How do we divide where rationality ends and where faith begins? I agree, everytging is so intertwined and interrelated

God created this universe so it is all intertwined.

Jake Arsenal · Dec 22, 2021

James_Lai said:
I pray a lot. I don’t see any difference it’s the same if not prayed. Only planning and action and hard work make any difference. Prayer is confirmation basis or coincidence… Maybe like auto suggestion or therapy to sooth yourself or sit down in quietness and analyze things. They say prayer helps lower blood pressure, lower cortisol level and helps you think over your life problems that otherwise you might be neglecting or, worse, avoiding. So they say it’s the best kind of psychological therapy.

For faith, I read about very powerful placebo effect, sometimes providing a cure in cases of very bad medical conditions. I recently read one psychotherapist who said that we have a matrix of healthy body in our DNA which our mind does not have access to. But the subconscious mind does have access to it, and strong sincere faith can work miracles of self-heaing. Such faith is not found in our conscious rational mind, but somewhere within… I think maybe I’m incapable of it, because I analyze everything. Or in very hard circumstances, I was reading a memoir of a Chinese soldier that he experienced some true miracles of human abilities in battle in critical situation. Maybe out of utter desperation or in a certain changed state of mind, one switches on this control mode or a sort of a link from conscious to the subconscious to tap to the hidden resources of our organisms…

You keep saying, "They say" this or that, as though you take their(whoever "they" are) word at face value. Are you a psychotherapist? If not, did you have to believe what that article said without being able to test it yourself? If so, that is faith. Faith is contrary to your experiences. Faith is something you choose to believe without proof.(Hebrews 11:1) According to my experiences, I am a very evil man. I put my faith in Christ, that His blood overcomes the evil I have committed. Whenever I worry about how people would respond if they knew half the things I have done, I turn those worries over to Christ and trust in His forgiveness. If you will put your trust in some psychotherapist you don't even know, how much easier it should be to trust your Creator.

James_Lai · Dec 22, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
God created this universe so it is all intertwined.

At some level yes, even the “flapping of a butterfly can cause a hurricane”…

Going back to reason vs faith, at least some of faith could be beyond or more that rational conscious mind accepting information… Deeper than that

James_Lai · Dec 22, 2021

Jake Arsenal said:
You keep saying, "They say" this or that, as though you take their(whoever "they" are) word at face value. Are you a psychotherapist? If not, did you have to believe what that article said without being able to test it yourself? If so, that is faith. Faith is contrary to your experiences. Faith is something you choose to believe without proof.(Hebrews 11:1) According to my experiences, I am a very evil man. I put my faith in Christ, that His blood overcomes the evil I have committed. Whenever I worry about how people would respond if they knew half the things I have done, I turn those worries over to Christ and trust in His forgiveness. If you will put your trust in some psychotherapist you don't even know, how much easier it should be to trust your Creator.

Yes, I see what you mean. It’s like when I was a kid my grandma made a little amulet with some Fulu writing, seeds, hair and whatnot and it was consecrated in a temple etc. I wore it as a pendant at all times and was sure it helped me in my school exams. Until later when I became convinced it’s useless and threw it away. I’m sure it worked though as a Placebo to some degree. By helping me be more confident and calm during the exams, that alone is a huge help.

I don’t subscribe to the theory of that doctor - it sounds pretty pseudoscientific anyway. But the general idea is that there seems to be an ability of the body to self-heal at least some issues, under certain conditions if you engage some type of faith

chevyontheriver · Dec 22, 2021

James_Lai said:
At some level yes, even the “flapping of a butterfly can cause a hurricane”…

Going back to reason vs faith, at least some of faith could be beyond or more that rational conscious mind accepting information… Deeper than that

There is the faith and there are many personal variants of it. Some of those are deliberately irrationalist. But those folks aside, faith is a way of knowing, just like all the other ways of knowing. They do not conflict, but they do see sometimes different areas of the whole. It's like a Venn diagram. Science does not allow you to see everything. It simply cannot see all of reality. Faith can see into those areas. But science errs when it says the areas it cannot see do not exist.

childeye 2 · Dec 22, 2021

James_Lai said:
At some level yes, even the “flapping of a butterfly can cause a hurricane”…

Going back to reason vs faith, at least some of faith could be beyond or more that rational conscious mind accepting information… Deeper than that

Using the true meaning of the term "faith", Faith is rational and unfaith is irrational, even as faith is rational and cynicism is irrational.

eleos1954 · Dec 22, 2021

James_Lai said:
The right state of mind! A certain attitude… Maybe also recognition of everything you know might be an error? Kind of try and come from a new slate to everything

I do that all the time ;o) It's not an attitude ... it's reasoning with scripture and using it as a whole .... and what it says about certain things.

Isaiah 28:10
Amplified Bible
“For He says, ‘Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Rule upon rule, rule upon rule, Here a little, there a little.’”

Irkle Berserkle · Dec 29, 2021

James_Lai said:
Hello.
I was raised as an atheist and everyone around me was an atheist. God was not a big factor for me. I became interested in religion when I was a student, mostly Christianity. I really like Christianity comparing to other religions. It’s what I’m most familiar with.

It seems to me that people who grew up Christians, believe in some ideas such as God or prayer or salvation as if it’s clear as daylight… It’s like it’s natural to them and they don’t need to think or to understand what it is, it’s a given.

For me, I can’t believe in anything unless I truly become convinced it’s true, and if I understand what it is and how it is and the purpose and meaning and overall picture and in details etc.

Talking more and more to Christians who grew up Christian, to them it’s like breathing. Even when I see that they don’t really understand or it actually doesn’t work the way they say. For example, if there’s a problem, pray. How about actions, planning, analysis of probabilities etc? No, pray. God will provide. God will heal. God will lead. Etc. To me it’s somewhat strange. I don’t see this happening in my or other people’s lives.

On the other hand, Jesus said, believe like little children. I guess it means sincerely, deeply and without a hint of a doubt.

Is such faith impossible for me as I have my worldview that only accepts what makes sense or experiential or logical etc? Not all things that are true necessarily make sense.

Maybe I missed the child indoctrination phase and so I’m not fit to be conditioned for religious faith?

Wow, Exploring Christianity is practically your personal forum!

You read and liked my Epistemology post, so you know my views on reaching strong Christian convictions.

One of the GREAT BLESSINGS of my life - and I mean this sincerely - is that my parents were incorrigible alcoholics who couldn't have cared less if I'd become a raving atheist, an orange-robed Hare Krishna or a Catholic priest. I received precisely NO indoctrination of any kind. I was ENTIRELY FREE to explore and think for myself.

I don't recommend a childhood with two alcoholic parents, but that aspect of it was an incalculable blessing. I have ABSOLUTELY NO envy of those who were raised and indoctrinated in devout households of any sort. Their faith may be perfectly genuine, but it's often a mindless, unexamined faith that is more the product of indoctrination and conditioning than real conviction.

I well-remember trying to fit into Campus Crusade as a Christian newbie. I remember saying to my wife "What is with these people? They're like zombies. Do they ever question or even think about anything?" I realized there was one huge difference between them and me: they had ALL been Christians since they were toddlers.

I don't say they weren't sincere Christians. God can call anyone at any time, and certainly childhood indoctrination may ripen into genuine conviction. On the other hand, my late sister's husband had been raised as a Mormon (now there is indoctrination for you). Even though he no longer believed, he just couldn't flush it from his system and had psychological issues as a result.

So I'd say "Don't dismay, be happy you're in a position to do your own thinking and reach your own convictions." As I suggested on the Epistemology thread, however, be prepared to do a lot of work.

James_Lai · Dec 29, 2021

Irkle Berserkle said:
Wow, Exploring Christianity is practically your personal forum!

You read and liked my Epistemology post, so you know my views on reaching strong Christian convictions.

One of the GREAT BLESSINGS of my life - and I mean this sincerely - is that my parents were incorrigible alcoholics who couldn't have cared less if I'd become a raving atheist, an orange-robed Hare Krishna or a Catholic priest. I received precisely NO indoctrination of any kind. I was ENTIRELY FREE to explore and think for myself.

I don't recommend a childhood with two alcoholic parents, but that aspect of it was an incalculable blessing. I have ABSOLUTELY NO envy of those who were raised and indoctrinated in devout households of any sort. Their faith may be perfectly genuine, but it's often a mindless, unexamined faith that is more the product of indoctrination and conditioning than real conviction.

I well-remember trying to fit into Campus Crusade as a Christian newbie. I remember saying to my wife "What is with these people? They're like zombies. Do they ever question or even think about anything?" I realized there was one huge difference between them and me: they had ALL been Christians since they were toddlers.

I don't say they weren't sincere Christians. God can call anyone at any time, and certainly childhood indoctrination may ripen into genuine conviction. On the other hand, my late sister's husband had been raised as a Mormon (now there is indoctrination for you). Even though he no longer believed, he just couldn't flush it from his system and had psychological issues as a result.

So I'd say "Don't dismay, be happy you're in a position to do your own thinking and reach your own convictions." As I suggested on the Epistemology thread, however, be prepared to do a lot of work.

These threads are the tip of the iceberg of my questions

It’s been extremely educating time here at this forum.

Yes, I read your reply and appreciate your input. I read all responses and think about those questions, can’t always respond to all.

My late dad was an alcoholic… What a nightmare, I don’t wish this on anybody. I son’t drink at all as the result, and even the sight of a bottle or smell of a drunk person’s breath brings up strong flash backs of horrific memories. My dad was the gentlest, kindest person on the planet except when ethanol got the best of him. He actually sobered up for a short time after a heart attack only to return to heavy drinking after he recovered…

In a way I envy indoctrination in the sense of having great morals, habits and structure instilled from a young age. There’s some very good side of such discipline. I didn’t have it and did my share of stupidities I deeply regret and partially still am paying for… I realize that some bad totalitarian or extra restrictive or controlling groups can leave a long-lasting trauma even years after leaving them… I know such people, too…

But from the ideological perspective, I think having freedom is great. As for faith, no matter how hard I try, I don’t seem to achieve the level of deep faith I see in people brought up in a religion. My Taoist friends for example. They’re rock solid in their worldview… As for me, I have to doubt everything….

Presbyterian Continuist · Dec 30, 2021

James_Lai said:
Hello.
I was raised as an atheist and everyone around me was an atheist. God was not a big factor for me. I became interested in religion when I was a student, mostly Christianity. I really like Christianity comparing to other religions. It’s what I’m most familiar with.

It seems to me that people who grew up Christians, believe in some ideas such as God or prayer or salvation as if it’s clear as daylight… It’s like it’s natural to them and they don’t need to think or to understand what it is, it’s a given.

For me, I can’t believe in anything unless I truly become convinced it’s true, and if I understand what it is and how it is and the purpose and meaning and overall picture and in details etc.

Talking more and more to Christians who grew up Christian, to them it’s like breathing. Even when I see that they don’t really understand or it actually doesn’t work the way they say. For example, if there’s a problem, pray. How about actions, planning, analysis of probabilities etc? No, pray. God will provide. God will heal. God will lead. Etc. To me it’s somewhat strange. I don’t see this happening in my or other people’s lives.

On the other hand, Jesus said, believe like little children. I guess it means sincerely, deeply and without a hint of a doubt.

Is such faith impossible for me as I have my worldview that only accepts what makes sense or experiential or logical etc? Not all things that are true necessarily make sense.

Maybe I missed the child indoctrination phase and so I’m not fit to be conditioned for religious faith?

You haven't mentioned the lost, lonely, abandoned, discouraged, sick, suffering, people who were found by Jesus Christ, and who discovered Him to be the kindest, most compassionate Person they have ever met. Because He took the time to lead and inspire His servants in the ministry to go out and seek them and lead them to Christ, because these ministers and workers gave up the comforts of life to seek them, they felt it was worth giving their lives to a Saviour who went out of His way to seek them when no one else was interested in them.

You are a seeker, but are you seeking the right Jesus, or is the Jesus you think you are seeking is a figment of religious peoples' imagination?

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