Canada bans conversion therapy, joining a handful of other nations

Hammster said:

You missed the point. They can be jailed for preaching against the sin of homosexuality.

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I would have to ask (and this is coming from an outsider atheist perspective), why is it that so many pastors (and staunch religious freedom advocates for that matter) feel compelled to put such a disproportionate amount of focus on "preaching against" the subset of "sins" that pertain to sexuality when compared to all the other ones?

The most glaring example I can think of is the bakery cases. Why was it considered a "Christian badge of honor" to refuse baking gay wedding cakes, but I've never heard of a Christian baker refusing to provide sweets to an obese person? Despite the fact that the bible (much like it condemns homosexuality) also condemns gluttony, and even equates it to idolatry in some NT verses?

Why the fixation on the "sex-related" sins over all the other ones? And why the specific fixation on homosexuality? I've also never heard of a baker refusing to bake a wedding cake for a couple whose relationship started due to adultery.

It seems as if certain people are just against homosexuality (for whatever reason), and are looking for a religious reason to oppose it to justify their own personal opinion.

Nm

Hammster said:

This might help.

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Where is this “This”?

cow451 said:

Where is this “This”?

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C'mon man, we shouldn't have to hold your hand through this, here's all the evidence you need:
Link showing the evidence

ThatRobGuy said:

C'mon man, we shouldn't have to hold your hand through this, here's all the evidence you need:
Link showing the evidence

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Thanks so much. How could I have missed it?

ThatRobGuy said:

There's a difference between a reasonable parent objecting to outside interests telling them that they need to be accommodating when their 6 year old claims they want to be a different gender, and a parent of a 16 year old who's gay, forcing them to meet with a pastor to "straighten" them out.

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I agree that that this *should* be the difference, but I am of course very interested to see how this law actually plays out in reality.

Carl Emerson said:

Bad...

It will likely mean - depending on the way the legislation is drafted - that folks wanting to revert to their biological gender will be unable to get support from parents and the church.

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So? There are other people in the world. I have never asked for counseling from my parents or a church. Church leadership is where social rejects hide out from jail. Not most of them of course.

cow451 said:

Pastors— good ones— will refer people to qualified professionals.

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If such is required, yes, but if a confused individual is seeking spiritual counseling on an issue, then the pastor or priest in that case would be the qualified professional. Many pastors do have names of trusted professionals to use for referrals when needed.

SkyWriting said:

So? There are other people in the world. I have never asked for counseling from my parents or a church.

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Some people appreciate the spiritual guidance a pastor or a trained lay person in their church can provide. Many churches sponsor Stephen ministry that counsels people. Others appreciate parental advice. Everyone is not you. Also many in the U.S. are unable to afford to pay for a counselor, especially if they don't have insurance or their insurance doesn't cover it, so they seek help at their churches.

bekkilyn said:

Some people appreciate the spiritual guidance a pastor or a trained lay person in their church can provide. Many churches sponsor Stephen ministry that counsels people. Others appreciate parental advice. Everyone is not you. Also many in the U.S. are unable to afford to pay for a counselor, especially if they don't have insurance or their insurance doesn't cover it, so they seek help at their churches.

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People can find counseling if they want it.
"Conversion therapy" must be federally outlawed due to it's flawed basis.
The same with any flawed therapy. Like racial therapy to fix black people who act like they are white. Or white people who act like they are black.

bekkilyn said:

I agree that that this *should* be the difference, but I am of course very interested to see how this law actually plays out in reality.

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Correct, that's the key...

Vagueness in policy can have some serious detrimental effects.

As they say "ambiguity favors the defendant". If you're trying to address a very specific issue, specificity is paramount in the legislation aimed at addressing it. If you leave things "too open to interpretation", that's how you can end up with people piggy-backing off it for largely unrelated causes.

bekkilyn said:

If such is required, yes, but if a confused individual is seeking spiritual counseling on an issue, then the pastor or priest in that case would be the qualified professional. Many pastors do have names of trusted professionals to use for referrals when needed.

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Conversion Therapy is an ill-conceived, misguided effort to make people be “straight”.

bekkilyn said:

Some people appreciate the spiritual guidance a pastor or a trained lay person in their church can provide. Many churches sponsor Stephen ministry that counsels people. Others appreciate parental advice. Everyone is not you. Also many in the U.S. are unable to afford to pay for a counselor, especially if they don't have insurance or their insurance doesn't cover it, so they seek help at their churches.

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A good argument for universal healthcare, right?

cow451 said:

Conversion Therapy is an ill-conceived, misguided effort to make people be “straight”.

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The problem is that "conversion therapy" is rarely defined and the phrase is used as a 'catch all' for any attempt to assist a person wanting to make the transition from gay to straight.

cow451 said:

A good argument for universal healthcare, right?

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For physical aspects yes, but for spiritual aspects no...

Thatgirloncfforums said:

What church disciplines people in order to free them from the sinful nature? That's Christ's job and will occur at the resurrection. So long as we are in the flesh, all of us contend with sin and will until Christ calls us home.

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Very true indeed. But church discipline applies to the person who does not contend with their sin. Jesus makes this explicit in Matthew 18.

ThatRobGuy said:

I would have to ask (and this is coming from an outsider atheist perspective), why is it that so many pastors (and staunch religious freedom advocates for that matter) feel compelled to put such a disproportionate amount of focus on "preaching against" the subset of "sins" that pertain to sexuality when compared to all the other ones?

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My sense of it is that this has become something of a litmus test for "real Christianity." That one's take on sexuality has become the thing against which one's orthodoxy is measured. That it's the defining issue around which various people and groups cluster around polarised positions.

This is unfortunate because it doesn't reflect a Scriptural basis; Scripture being much more complex and nuanced, and also never placing sexual matters at the centre of it message. It also doesn't reflect the earliest rules of faith, long since codified as Creeds, which set out the matters which the earliest church found essential and which nowhere mention sexuality of any kind at all.

As for the topic of the thread, conversion therapy is deeply harmful, abusive and doesn't work. Churches and individual Christians shouldn't need the state to tell us not to harm and abuse our neighbours, but if that's what it takes, then it's good that the state steps in. What I have increasingly recognised, though, is how very ignorant and misinformed on these matters many Christians are; and I think it would be good if there were a strong public education campaign to go along with the legislation.

Hammster said:

Oops.

Boys Will Be Boys, But Not in Canada: Bill C-4 Outlaws Conversion Therapy

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That’s just hysterical reaction. Christians do have sexual thoughts, behavior and feelings for all sorts of varieties. Don’t get me started on the horrible history of sexual and emotional abuse of vulnerable people by pastors and church officials in the US.

The study found 1 in 3 (32%) Protestant churchgoers believe many more Protestant pastors have sexually abused children or teens than has been currently exposed. Slightly more (37%) disagree, while 31% say they don’t know.