The KJVO myth...

Bob_1000 · Dec 3, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
The modern understanding is the one you have. You think “it” must always be in reference to a gender neutral being or some kind of thing (not a person).

First, see how the Random House Webster's College Dictionary of 1999 defines the use of the words "it" and "itself". The second definition given for "itself" is: "used to represent a PERSON or animal understood, previously mentioned, about to be mentioned, or present in the immediate context - Who is it? It is John. . . Did you see the baby? Yes, isn't it cute. . . the cat likes to sun itself in the window."

Second, the King James Bible is often its own commentary, the Bible itself give us such an example. Turn to the book of Exodus chapter 2 verses 6-9. Pharaoh had given a commandment to have all the male children slain as soon as they were born. Moses' mother put her baby in an ark of bulrushes and laid him by the river's banks. Pharaoh's daughter saw the ark and sent one of her maids to fetch it.

Here we read: "And when she had opened it, she saw the child: and, behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on HIM, (we know the sex of the child; he was a male) and said, This is one of the Hebrew's children." Then in verse 9 we read: "And Pharaoh's daughter said unto her (Moses' mother) Take this child away, and nurse IT for me, and I will give thee thy wages. And the woman took the child, and nursed IT."

Source used:
Another King James Bible Believer

You gave a good example here with "Take this child away, and nurse IT for me, and I will give thee thy wages. And the woman took the child, and nursed IT."

IT in "nurse IT" refers to the IMPERSONAL "this child" and that's why the word "it" is used instead of "him" If the verse had said "Take MOSES away" the rest of the verse would be "and nurse HIM for me and I will give thee thy wages. And the woman took MOSES and nursed HIM."

The same is true in 1 Peter 1:11. "It" is referring to the IMPERSONAL "Spirit of Christ". If "it" were referring to a person i.e. the literal Spirit of Christ then "it" would have been rendered as "He".

Grammar rules apply in bible reading.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 3, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
You gave a good example here with "Take this child away, and nurse IT for me, and I will give thee thy wages. And the woman took the child, and nursed IT."

IT in "nurse IT" refers to the IMPERSONAL "this child" and that's why the word "it" is used instead of "him" If the verse had said "Take MOSES away" the rest of the verse would be "and nurse HIM for me and I will give thee thy wages. And the woman took MOSES and nursed HIM."

The same is true in 1 Peter 1:11. "It" is referring to the IMPERSONAL "Spirit of Christ". If "it" were referring to a person i.e. the literal Spirit of Christ then "it" would have been rendered as "He".

Grammar rules apply in bible reading.

I see that you simply want to be right vs. seeing the obvious. There are many examples like the one I gave. So in my humble opinion, you are just holding on to a wrong interpretation, my friend.

Anyways, we can agree to disagree.

May God bless you (even if we disagree).

Bob_1000 · Dec 3, 2021

Strong in Him said:
That's the Holy Spirit.
I gave you lots of verses which say that we should be filled with the Spirit, walk in the Spirit and that the Spirit is changing us into Jesus' image and likeness, 2 Corinthians 3:18. The Spirit was doing this for believers long before the KJV came on the scene - Paul, Peter and the NT writers were all filled with, and led by, the Spirit.

Of course they're the same.
What are we saved from? The wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. This means spiritual death, which is separation from God. Adam and Eve DID die on the day that they ate the fruit - the relationship they had with God was broken, they were each given a punishment and kicked out of the Garden. From then onwards, everyone who wanted to approach God had to offer sacrifices - e.g Cain and Abel, Job (who offered sacrifices in case his children had sinned). At Sinai, the Hebrew people were formally given the sacrificial system with details of how to offer each sacrifice and what it was for. And God also made a Covenant with them - a covenant they were, mostly, incapable of keeping.
Then Jesus came. And right from the beginning we are told that he would save people from their sins, Matthew 1:21, John 1:29. This was also foretold in the OT. Jesus was Mary's seed who would bruise the serpent's head, Genesis 3:15 and the suffering servant who would be bruised for our iniquities, Isaiah 53:4-5. Jesus himself said that he had come to offer his life as a sacrifice, Mark 10:45, to lay down his life for the sheep, John 10:11 and that his blood was being poured out for the forgiveness of sins, Matthew 26:28.
The Apostles preached this from the beginning. See Peter's sermon at Pentecost; when he finished and was asked "what shall we do?" he said, "Repent and be baptised .... for the forgiveness of sins", Acts of the Apostles 2:38. Paul taught that Jesus died for us, Romans 5:8, Ephesians 1:7, and that through him we are reconciled to God, Romans 5:11-12, Colossians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:18.
Jesus said also that everyone who believed in him would receive eternal life, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 6:53. The NT writers ay this as well, Romans 6:23, 1 John 5:12.

So if we accept Jesus and that his death was for our sins, we have eternal life. We are made new creations, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15; have been given new birth, 1 Peter 1:3, a new life, Acts of the Apostles 5:20, Romans 6:4, Romans 6:11, Romans 8:5-8. We are told to put off our old selves, Ephesians 4:22-24, Romans 8:12-13 - to which we have died, Romans 6, Galatians 2:20. We are born into a new family - children of God, John 1:12 and heirs with Christ, Romans 8:16-17.

How are all these things, which are a result of salvation, not the same as being born again?

Those are all salvation things and the reason they're not born again things is because they don't fit the biblical definition of born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

That verse is telling us that a second birth is going to take place in us. This is the birth of something that DOES NOT EXIST in the natural man. The first birth or natural birth came through corruptible seed and that corruptible seed is our DNA which are the blueprints of our body soul and spirit.

The second birth is a NEW CREATION that never existed in the first man. The second birth is the result of spiritual DNA, the word of God, which creates the NEW spiritual man aka Christ in us. This is why I keep bringing up Paul travailing in birth to FORM Christ in the saved Galatians.

In your view the 2nd birth is not really a 2nd birth, instead it's the RESURRECTION of something dead that had been given life at the point of salvation.... And that does happen to us but that has nothing to do with the birth of something brand new in us that never existed from the start. These are two completely unrelated events that most of Christianity lumps into one. The bible is very clear on using words, if the 2nd birth were actually a resurrection of something dead, then the bible would use those terms to describe it.

Bob_1000 · Dec 3, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I see that you simply want to be right vs. seeing the obvious. There are many examples like the one I gave. So in my humble opinion, you are just holding on to a wrong interpretation, my friend.

Anyways, we can agree to disagree.

May God bless you (even if we disagree).

The most important thing to me is to represent the word of God as accurately as I possibly can. I'm not interested in winning arguments or proving that I'm right.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 3, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
The most important thing to me is to represent the word of God as accurately as I possibly can. I'm not interested in winning arguments or proving that I'm right.

I believe the same way, but we both cannot be correct on our interpretation on 1 Peter 1:10-11. For me, it’s common sense. But I believe people want to see what they want to see for their own reasons. Anyways, it’s best we agree to disagree in love and move on.

May you be at peace today with the Lord.

Strong in Him · Dec 3, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
Those are all salvation things and the reason they're not born again things is because they don't fit the biblical definition of born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

That verse is telling us that a second birth is going to take place in us.

The second birth takes place in us when we receive Christ.
If anyone is IN Christ he is a new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
God has given us new birth into a living hope 1 Peter 1:2.

Bob_1000 said:
That verse is telling us that a second birth is going to take place in us. This is the birth of something that DOES NOT EXIST in the natural man.

Yes - when we are without God, in the flesh, belong to the world we are without eternal life, new birth, new hope.
People without God are living as natural people - only for themselves, doing good deeds only by their own strength etc etc. Those who accept Christ put aside the deeds of the flesh, are given new hearts, new, eternal - everlasting - life. That is why Jesus came that we should have fulness of life, John 10:10.

I know that I have new life. Even though my thoughts/desires/motives aren't perfect, I know they have greatly changed to what they were before - even though I was a churchgoer and had some kind of faith.

Bob_1000 said:
In your view the 2nd birth is not really a 2nd birth, instead it's the RESURRECTION of something dead that had been given life at the point of salvation....

Show me where I said that please, otherwise don't try to guess at my thoughts.
Born again means a second birth; a new birth into new life, eternal life, new hope and a new family - children of God and heirs together with Christ.
We are under new management; Jesus is Lord. We serve a new master - no longer self, or sin, but Jesus.

Bob_1000 said:
The bible is very clear on using words, if the 2nd birth were actually a resurrection of something dead, then the bible would use those terms to describe it.

We are to die to self - take up our cross and deny ourselves; put to death our sin. Then when we have done so, we are raised to new life with Christ.
We have the same physical bodies - but are NEW Creations and have new starts. It is as though we had never sinned; made clean, born again, children of God.

Bob_1000 · Dec 3, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe the same way, but we both cannot be correct on our interpretation on 1 Peter 1:10-11. For me, it’s common sense. But I believe people want to see what they want to see for their own reasons. Anyways, it’s best we agree to disagree in love and move on.

May you be at peace today with the Lord.

Thank you and the same to you.

Bob_1000 · Dec 3, 2021

Strong in Him said:
The second birth takes place in us when we receive Christ.
If anyone is IN Christ he is a new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
God has given us new birth into a living hope 1 Peter 1:2.

Yes - when we are without God, in the flesh, belong to the world we are without eternal life, new birth, new hope.
People without God are living as natural people - only for themselves, doing good deeds only by their own strength etc etc. Those who accept Christ put aside the deeds of the flesh, are given new hearts, new, eternal - everlasting - life. That is why Jesus came that we should have fulness of life, John 10:10.

I know that I have new life. Even though my thoughts/desires/motives aren't perfect, I know they have greatly changed to what they were before - even though I was a churchgoer and had some kind of faith.

Show me where I said that please, otherwise don't try to guess at my thoughts.
Born again means a second birth; a new birth into new life, eternal life, new hope and a new family - children of God and heirs together with Christ.
We are under new management; Jesus is Lord. We serve a new master - no longer self, or sin, but Jesus.

We are to die to self - take up our cross and deny ourselves; put to death our sin. Then when we have done so, we are raised to new life with Christ.
We have the same physical bodies - but are NEW Creations and have new starts. It is as though we had never sinned; made clean, born again, children of God.

I've presented my case as well as I could, no point in going on any further on this one.

Strong in Him · Dec 3, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
I've presented my case as well as I could, no point in going on any further on this one.

I don't understand your case; that's the trouble.
I cannot see how having new life and being given a new birth are different from being born again.

Bob_1000 · Dec 3, 2021

Strong in Him said:
I don't understand your case; that's the trouble.
I cannot see how having new life and being given a new birth are different from being born again.

I can continue to try to explain but I'm going to keep saying the same things over and over. Born again does not mean resurrection from death. The 2nd birth isn't the soul or spirit being raised from death to life, it is a new creation in us.

Maybe we can come at it from this angle. We all have an image of Christ in our minds. That image comes the words that we read and the teachers that we listen too. Everybody's image of Christ IS NOT the same. The Mormons have their image, Catholics have their image, Baptist have there image and I'm not judging anyone's image, I'm just pointing out that there is an image of Christ in all of us and that Christ is the new man in us. This is the Christ that Paul is travailing in birth to form in the Galatians.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Strong in Him · Dec 3, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
I can continue to try to explain but I'm going to keep saying the same things over and over. Born again does not mean resurrection from death.

I don't believe I ever said that it did.
We are saved from sin and eternal separation from God and given eternal life; a NEW birth, and NEW hope, we become NEW creations.
Receiving a new birth is a second birth - we start again as clean, forgiven people, with a new heart and born into a new family.
That is not the same as someone being resurrected to carry on, as before, with their old life/values/morals etc.

Bob_1000 said:
The 2nd birth isn't the soul or spirit being raised from death to life, it is a new creation in us.

That's what I said, and what Scripture says; if we are in Christ we are new creations.

Bob_1000 said:
Maybe we can come at it from this angle. We all have an image of Christ in our minds. That image comes the words that we read and the teachers that we listen too.

We are made in the image of GOD.
Any image, or picture, we have of what Christ is like needs to be formed from the Bible, or it is not a true image. And Christ is the exact image and representation of God.

Bob_1000 said:
I'm not judging anyone's image, I'm just pointing out that there is an image of Christ in all of us

What do you mean by "image of Christ"?
Do you mean we all have different ideas, or pictures, of what Christ is like?
Scripture shows us the answer to that.

I don't get where you get the idea that Christ is "the new man in us".
The Spirit transforms us into Christ's image; not the other way around.

Bob_1000 · Dec 3, 2021

Strong in Him said:
What do you mean by "image of Christ"?
Do you mean we all have different ideas, or pictures, of what Christ is like?
Scripture shows us the answer to that.

Yes the only image of Christ that we have is the image given to us in the bible. And yes almost everyone's image of Christ is different.... and this shouldn't because the incorruptible word of God only portrays ONE IMAGE of Christ.

Strong in Him said:
I don't get where you get the idea that Christ is "the new man in us".
The Spirit transforms us into Christ's image; not the other way around.

The spirit leads us through the word of God and that working of the Spirit in the word of God is what transforms us into Christ's image.

The idea that Christ is the new man in us comes from many different places in the bible. Here is one example showing how we PUT ON Christ.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Here it is again but in different words. In this verse we PUT ON the new man.... the man in us is Christ in us. It's the same thing Paul spoke of in Galatians... "I travail in BIRTH to FORM Christ in you".

Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Here again in Colossians, we PUT ON the NEW MAN. That new man has to be RENEWED in KNOWLEDGE after the image of him (Jesus) that CREATED the new man in us.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Bob_1000 · Dec 4, 2021

@Strong in Him

I thought of something else that might clarify the born again phenomenon. Not being able to see or enter the kingdom of heaven in the verses below isn’t talking about our eternal destination it’s talking about the kingdom of heaven on earth that exists right now.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Strong in Him · Dec 4, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
@Strong in Him

I thought of something else that might clarify the born again phenomenon. Not being able to see or enter the kingdom of heaven in the verses below isn’t talking about our eternal destination it’s talking about the kingdom of heaven on earth that exists right now.

Thank you - but I don't feel that I need it to be clarified.

The Kingdom of heaven is wherever Jesus is acknowledged, and reigns as, king.
Anyone who accepts that Jesus is king believes in him and has accepted him; who he is and what he has done for them. So where people live under the rule of King Jesus, that is the kingdom of God. However small; it might just be two people in one family, and the only Christian family in the neighbourhood. Jesus said "the Kingdom of God is among you".
We can see from the Gospels what life looks like with Jesus as king - the poor and outcasts are accepted, women are elevated (in a male dominated society), sinners are forgiven, the sick are healed. Also, everyone who comes to Jesus has eternal life, which starts now.

The Kingdom of God is here now - but not yet in all its fullness. The devil has not been finally defeated and is constantly trying to make us sin and turn us away from God. There is still war, poverty, injustice, famine. A person cannot enter the kingdom of God - i.e get to a place where they say "God rules in my life, not me, he is king", unless they are born again and have a new heart from God. Just as a person cannot say "Jesus is Lord" unless they have the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:3.

Someone who has not accepted Jesus, who is saying "I'll get to heaven my way by my good deeds. I'm not such a bad person; I can live my life without him" is not in the kingdom of God - they rule their own lives. They do not have eternal life, nor a new heart from God - generally they believe that they don't need one.

Davy · Dec 23, 2021

Strong in Him said:
I said that I did not ONLY quote Luke 24 - my references about Jesus' physical body also came from John 20, where Jesus invited Thomas to touch him, and John 21 where Jesus had built a fire and was cooking fish on the seashore. IOW my argument was not built on one verse.

I've already said that Jesus' resurrection body was both spiritual AND physical. Spiritual because he could appear in rooms that had locked doors and suddenly disappeared after breaking bread; physical because he ate fish, reassured them that he was not a ghost and had flesh and bones and invited Thomas to touch his hands and side. Even if Thomas had not done so, he must at least have been able to see the scars. Otherwise, I suggest, he would not have responded with the words "my Lord and my God". He changed from being a doubter and cynic to being the first to declare that the risen Christ was God. I don't know how Jesus' resurrection body could have been both spiritual and physical, but to say otherwise is to deny what is clearly in the Gospels.
Jesus later ascended into heaven and no longer has a body of flesh and blood.

Besides which, it is not possible to say that he can't inherit the kingdom - he's the King. Without him, there is no kingdom.

Luke 24 only suggests a flesh presence, not John 21. Jesus appeared to Abraham with two angels in Genesis 18, and they ate what Abraham prepared for them. The body of that other dimension can eat our food, and we can eat the Heavenly food (manna which the Israelites in the desert ate).

And the problem still is, the 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 Scripture about the resurrection body shows Lord Jesus' body was made a 'quickening spirit'.

Strong in Him · Dec 24, 2021

Davy said:
Luke 24 only suggests a flesh presence, not John 21. Jesus appeared to Abraham with two angels in Genesis 18, and they ate what Abraham prepared for them. The body of that other dimension can eat our food, and we can eat the Heavenly food (manna which the Israelites in the desert ate).

And the fire, bread and fish that were cooking on heated coals when the disciples came ashore? John 21:9.

Davy said:
And the problem still is, the 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 Scripture about the resurrection body shows Lord Jesus' body was made a 'quickening spirit'.

Jesus had a resurrected body. 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that our resurrected, spiritual, bodies are not lie our mortal, physical bodies. So it was with Jesus. At times, he could enter rooms with locked doors, John 20:19, or be with them and then vanish, Luke 24:19; at other times he ate, and cooked, fish; Luke 24:42-43, John 21:9. He invited the disciples to touch him and said, "a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have", Luke 24:39, and later also invited Thomas to touch him, John 20:27.
If he had not had a physical body, saying "you can see that I have flesh and bones" was a lie.

Davy · Dec 24, 2021

Strong in Him said:
And the fire, bread and fish that were cooking on heated coals when the disciples came ashore? John 21:9.

Your inference is actually the idea that Jesus just BEING here on earth and able to manipulate material items means He was in a flesh body. That's the same difficulty some have with understanding the two different dimensions of existence. You said nothing of what I showed about Genesis 18 when Jesus and two angels with Him met Abraham at his ten door, and Abraham prepared food for them. And even in Genesis 19 we are shown Lot having made a feast for the two angels that came to get him out of Sodom and Gomorrah, and even the sodomites who saw those angels with the image of man.

Thus a Biblical fact, the image of man does NOT originate from the flesh. That appears to be what you think. That means you need to go back to Genesis 1:26-27 and study that again.

Strong in Him · Dec 24, 2021

Davy said:
Your inference is actually the idea that Jesus just BEING here on earth and able to manipulate material items means He was in a flesh body. That's the same difficulty some have with understanding the two different dimensions of existence. You said nothing of what I showed about Genesis 18 when Jesus and two angels with Him met Abraham at his ten door, and Abraham prepared food for them.

And you've said nothing about Jesus' statement that a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have, Luke 24:39.
Was he lying?

I haven't studied the Abraham story - but I do know that "Angel" means messenger, and an angel is not necessarily a spiritual being without a body.
We are told in Hebrews that if we offer hospitality, we may be entertaining angels, without realising it, Hebrews 13:2. What does that mean - that heavenly beings can come down from God's throne to see if we will give them a cuppa?

Davy · Dec 24, 2021

Strong in Him said:
And you've said nothing about Jesus' statement that a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have, Luke 24:39.
Was he lying?

I haven't studied the Abraham story - but I do know that "Angel" means messenger, and an angel is not necessarily a spiritual being without a body.
We are told in Hebrews that if we offer hospitality, we may be entertaining angels, without realising it, Hebrews 13:2. What does that mean - that heavenly beings can come down from God's throne to see if we will give them a cuppa?

I referred to the Luke 24 Scripture already. We all know what it says. And FYI, a ghost is not what Peter, James, and John saw upon the mount of transfiguration with Jesus speaking to Moses and Elijah.

Strong in Him · Dec 24, 2021

Davy said:
I referred to the Luke 24 Scripture already. We all know what it says.

So what's your explanation of his words, then - if you claim that he didn't have a physical body?

I didn't even mention the transfiguration.

The KJVO myth...

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