Churches closed, pastors arrested

anna ~ grace

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Let's go slow. The countries with the highest rate of jabs also can have the highest sickness today. So far so good? If so, then what good is the jab?

This article talks about it.

"The Republic of Ireland has vaccinated 91% of its population for COVID-19, the highest rate in the European Union, but the nation now has the highest number of patients hospitalized for the disease since March."

COVID hospitalizations spike in most-vaxxed nation



Study: Americans with J&J COVID vaccine 3.7 times more likely to get blood clots than average person

Not rocket science.
No, it’s not rocket science. But most people won’t listen. The vaccine passports are a back door for a nascent social credit system; disapproved activities on your cellphone or personal life will be monitored and punished. Posting anti-socialist opinions online will get you dinged points on your social credit score. It’s coming. Some folks are waking up to this.
 
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rambot

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Let's go slow. The countries with the highest rate of jabs also can have the highest sickness today. So far so good? If so, then what good is the jab?

This article talks about it.

"The Republic of Ireland has vaccinated 91% of its population for COVID-19, the highest rate in the European Union, but the nation now has the highest number of patients hospitalized for the disease since March."

COVID hospitalizations spike in most-vaxxed nation



Study: Americans with J&J COVID vaccine 3.7 times more likely to get blood clots than average person

Not rocket science.
PLEASE don't think that I don't understand your argument.
Rest assured. I understand your argument completely.
Can you say the same about my argument?
 
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rebornfree

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Well, not everyone. Ever shopped at Cosco? The parking lot can have hundreds of cars. How about abortion clinics? Were they all closed? Schools? Airports? Liquor stores? Malls?
Go online? Some people may not have more faith in that than in video games or facebook. It does seem possible to 'remain open' for many churches though. For other people, they might prefer (have faith) to meet in other ways than the way they used to. Maybe some feel that the restrictions are growing and biased and probably are not only permanent but may increase. The agenda in schools and governments is overtly Satanic these day in many ways. Some churches (one would hope) may choose to not ignore this any longer but deal with it with actions. Some not feel it is business as usual.
Well I agree that food shops have remained open, which was necessary as people need to eat and buy essentials, and the stores could not cope with everyone having a home delivery. I never want abortion clinics to be open, but the other places you mentioned: schools, airports and malls (except for the food outlets) were closed here in the UK. As for liquor stores I don't know, but as most of them also sold food they probably were open. BTW I'm talking about the strictest lockdown we had last year. Maybe it was different in Canada, so I apologise if I haven't understood the situation there properly.

Also I appreciate that not everyone would find Church at home easy and I feel that those young in the faith may have been tempted to fall away. Hopefully those more mature helped by keeping in touch and encouraging them to engage with online activities etc. It has not been easy for anyone during the worst of the pandemic, including the overworked and stressed health care workers, key staff, those not able to get medical treatment because Covid-19 has used up all the resources, the sick, the dying and the bereaved, some of whom couldn't be with their loved ones at the end.

I agree that there are Satanic elements in school and governments, but personally I don't think that going against the authorities in this instance was the right thing to do (unless it was the Lord telling them to do so). We are in a minority in the world and we serve the Kingdom of God. Going against Covid regulations does not seem to me to be a good way of attracting more people into it. But that is just my take on it and things may be different here anyway. The thing we can agree on is that we want God's name to be glorified and His kingdom extended.

In answer to your question in the OP. No I don't think the Church need go underground in western democracies (yet) but we need to keep a clear, and loving, stand on the things we believe to be right.
 
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rebornfree

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And one thing is disturbing me. Let's look at one of the top magistrates of Canada Premier of Ontario Mr Ford. In my opinion he has worked hard to hold back and allow much freedom to the churches. Let's be fair. Vaccines passports are required at the doors of restaurants sports events and most ingathering of people but he held back from applying that to places of worship.

He's come under fire for doing so and the pressure is intense people with people telling him he's crazy for allowing it. Seems like he deserves a little credit for doing everything he can to be a friend to the churches wanting to consider them an essential service . Am I happy about all things government has done? Nope. But I tire in seeing fellow believers not getting that they have tried to be gracious in various ways at this most difficult time. I think it'd be good to try to work with them as much as possible and not just write them off as some enemy.
Yes, I agree with you. I think you have identified a key point in many discussions here. Some of us see governments as those trying to do the best for our countries. Some members will be Christians, some will be anti-Christian and most will be undecided/yet to be saved/not thought about it. Although Satan is getting stuff done through them, I also think that good things can be done too and don't automatically see them as the Enemy. I agree that we should work with them when possible and make a stand for the Lord when they promote something we really can't agree with. To me closing Churches, amongst other places, in a pandemic is not such a time.
 
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power1

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No, it’s not rocket science. But most people won’t listen. The vaccine passports are a back door for a nascent social credit system; disapproved activities on your cellphone or personal life will be monitored and punished. Posting anti-socialist opinions online will get you dinged points on your social credit score. It’s coming. Some folks are waking up to this.
The good news is that God plans to take His people up in the air and away from all this, The poor guys that designed all this evil will be left alone, holding the bag to face the world they messed up. That system won't be tracking us up there! During the several years after that, on earth, billions of new believers will emerge. Though they will probably track them, they will face heavy resistance from all directions, and in the end, they will be begging for death over what they will face.
 
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power1

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Well I agree that food shops have remained open, which was necessary as people need to eat and buy essentials, and the stores could not cope with everyone having a home delivery. I never want abortion clinics to be open, but the other places you mentioned: schools, airports and malls (except for the food outlets) were closed here in the UK. As for liquor stores I don't know, but as most of them also sold food they probably were open. BTW I'm talking about the strictest lockdown we had last year. Maybe it was different in Canada, so I apologise if I haven't understood the situation there properly.

Also I appreciate that not everyone would find Church at home easy and I feel that those young in the faith may have been tempted to fall away. Hopefully those more mature helped by keeping in touch and encouraging them to engage with online activities etc. It has not been easy for anyone during the worst of the pandemic, including the overworked and stressed health care workers, key staff, those not able to get medical treatment because Covid-19 has used up all the resources, the sick, the dying and the bereaved, some of whom couldn't be with their loved ones at the end.
I am not sure the worst is over. Maybe we don't really know one way or the other.

I agree that there are Satanic elements in school and governments, but personally I don't think that going against the authorities in this instance was the right thing to do (unless it was the Lord telling them to do so).
God gave us the bible. It tells us it is good to meet and preach the gospel etc. God is the Authority and the nations better not go against Him.
We are in a minority in the world and we serve the Kingdom of God. Going against Covid regulations does not seem to me to be a good way of attracting more people into it.
How would anyone know if people met secretly? Not like they would probably show up at work the next day and brag about it.

But that is just my take on it and things may be different here anyway. The thing we can agree on is that we want God's name to be glorified and His kingdom extended.
Sounds good.

In answer to your question in the OP. No I don't think the Church need go underground in western democracies (yet) but we need to keep a clear, and loving, stand on the things we believe to be right.
OK. At least you seem open to the idea that things could get so bad one day that it might be necessary.
 
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power1

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Some of us see governments as those trying to do the best for our countries..
The agenda that governments follow seems to be written in the depths of hell. Not all of us think that is best for our countries. Sex changes for kids? Killing millions of unborn people every year? Moving to a globalist dictatorship bound under anti Christ laws and people?
 
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dgiharris

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The agenda that governments follow seems to be written in the depths of hell. Not all of us think that is best for our countries. Sex changes for kids? Killing millions of unborn people every year? Moving to a globalist dictatorship bound under anti Christ laws and people?

I don't know what scares me more. Your ability to twist things into that which they are not. Or the possibility that you actually believe what you are saying.
 
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power1

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I don't know what scares me more. Your ability to twist things into that which they are not. Or the possibility that you actually believe what you are saying.
Keep us posted on your fear adventures then I guess. I take it you weigh in as favouring letting the devil fine and arrest and harass and hinder bible believing churches that try to value Scripture above the commandments of men?
 
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rebornfree

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I am not sure the worst is over. Maybe we don't really know one way or the other.
Agreed
God gave us the bible. It tells us it is good to meet and preach the gospel etc. God is the Authority and the nations better not go against Him.
Well I agree that God is the Authority, but nations will go against Him because we live in a fallen world. I agree about meeting and preaching, but just feel that we should do it within the Covid regulations: small groups, online etc. My neighbours know I do Church at home and it's a bit of a witness. Also I pray with them for their needs (over the garden wall during the severest restrictions). I think it would be a worse witness if I was going to a Church which was in defiance of the regulations. Maybe it's different in different countries. Yours is a large one, ours very compact. We're expected to do the socially acceptable thing unless we have really strong reasons not to. In this instance I don't think we have such reasons.
How would anyone know if people met secretly? Not like they would probably show up at work the next day and brag about it.
No, and if it comes to that we would have to, like China and Russia did, but I don't think we're at that place now.
OK. At least you seem open to the idea that things could get so bad one day that it might be necessary.
Yes, I think that scripture shows us that it will.

The agenda that governments follow seems to be written in the depths of hell. Not all of us think that is best for our countries. Sex changes for kids? Killing millions of unborn people every year? Moving to a globalist dictatorship bound under anti Christ laws and people?
Totally agree with you on the sex change and abortion issues and I expect that there are other things we will both agree are wrong. I think that the governments believe that they are doing what is best because they are largely living by secular beliefs. However we Christians, including Christian MPs who speak and vote against immoral issues, know that they are wrong. If we are forced to obey them (e.g. Churches performing gay marriages) then we would have to make a stand and disobey. I just don't think that their way of dealing with the pandemic is such an issue. We will probably have to agree to disagree on that. However I would accept that some of the Government's economic and social issues are okay. Not as good as God's way would be but not always against it.

I'm not sure about the global dictatorship though.
 
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Right. But he always tried to obey God and preach the good news. He was not vindictive and hateful and trying to screw people and get them fired.

Of course not. And that's my point Paul was not hateful towards them. So because the world might be that to us that doesn't mean we have to do that to them.

He was a prisoner and worked within that limit.

So why can't you appreciate that our worldly magistrates may at times have us as prisoners' and work within that limit?

For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Sorry but you're trying to change the subject. I've pointed out to you that AT TIMES Paul, Timothy and Jesus (see Matt 17:24) did yield in doing some things so as not to unnecessarily offend the culture and you still want to insinuate everything that you technically have rights about you should just go ahead and do it. I don't know how much more clearer the scriptures' can be. They didn't always do that but weighed what things are of greater importance.

Whatever we do, do all to the glory of God. We are not to be manpleasers.

Context, context, context! They did seek to please men to a point and degree and I've shown you these scriptures. Matt 17:24/ 1 Cor 9:20 "Lest we offend them!"

Gal 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Once again let's keep the context straight. That's talking about how wrong it would be for Paul to give into Christian Judaizers who were trying to bring the Gentiles under the Jewish religious law which would mean works needed for salvation. ]
 
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power1

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Agreed

Well I agree that God is the Authority, but nations will go against Him because we live in a fallen world. I agree about meeting and preaching, but just feel that we should do it within the Covid regulations: small groups, online etc. My neighbours know I do Church at home and it's a bit of a witness. Also I pray with them for their needs (over the garden wall during the severest restrictions). I think it would be a worse witness if I was going to a Church which was in defiance of the regulations. Maybe it's different in different countries. Yours is a large one, ours very compact. We're expected to do the socially acceptable thing unless we have really strong reasons not to. In this instance I don't think we have such reasons.
No, and if it comes to that we would have to, like China and Russia did, but I don't think we're at that place now.

Yes, I think that scripture shows us that it will.


Totally agree with you on the sex change and abortion issues and I expect that there are other things we will both agree are wrong. I think that the governments believe that they are doing what is best because they are largely living by secular beliefs.

That will not get them off the hook of God's judgments. The wicked do not admit they are wicked. They claim the good is bad. That evil is good. Willing ignorance is no excuse. Regardless of what they think, when I see them offend little children with godless lies and procedures and propaganda and evil I have to believe that they have crossed the red line. There can be no reasoning any more with them. The agenda is set and they dance to the devils tune in gleeful lockstep.
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They increase more and more having crossed the line and when that level of depravity is reached, all that remains is a certain fearful waiting for what must come. God cannot allow it.

However we Christians, including Christian MPs who speak and vote against immoral issues, know that they are wrong. If we are forced to obey them (e.g. Churches performing gay marriages) then we would have to make a stand and disobey
I think we are there now.

Example: Ontario Christian minister forced to conduct same-sex ‘marriages’ or get sacked - LifeSite

I just don't think that their way of dealing with the pandemic is such an issue. We will probably have to agree to disagree on that. However I would accept that some of the Government's economic and social issues are okay. Not as good as God's way would be but not always against it.

I'm not sure about the global dictatorship though.
There is none yet, at least above the scene. Leaders have hinted at and even stated that a reset is coming. Some people might believe that the time to act is now while there is still a small amount of freedom to do so.
 
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power1

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Of course not. And that's my point Paul was not hateful towards them. So because the world might be that to us that doesn't mean we have to do that to them.

So why can't you appreciate that our worldly magistrates may at times have us as prisoners' and work within that limit?
If we are free why act like some prisoner? Better to use that freedom for good and for God, no?

Sorry but you're trying to change the subject. I've pointed out to you that AT TIMES Paul, Timothy and Jesus (see Matt 17:24) did yield in doing some things so as not to unnecessarily offend the culture and you still want to insinuate everything that you technically have rights about you should just go ahead and do it.
OK. By the way what did Jesus 'yield' in?

Context, context, context! They did seek to please men to a point and degree and I've shown you these scriptures. Matt 17:24/ 1 Cor 9:20 "Lest we offend them!"
They neither wanted to purposely offend people who might get saved, nor did they pull punches when it was obvious that some were vipers. It was not cowtowing to the wicked that they did, but the loving effort of trying to win sheep as much as possible by whatever means they could. Jesus did not worry about offending the fake shepherds, and went out of His way to do so!
 
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dgiharris

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Keep us posted on your fear adventures then I guess. I take it you weigh in as favouring letting the devil fine and arrest and harass and hinder bible believing churches that try to value Scripture above the commandments of men?

What I abhor more than anything is those who would purposefully engineer a conflict with the State and frame such conflict as a battle between the Church and the State when no such battle need take place.

The response of many religious types to this whole COVID thing is disturbing. There is no reason why any Church needs to promote anti-vax, anti-mask, and anti-safe measures in order to worship. There is no reason to be anti-science and yet so many of faith are anti-science and they wear their scientific ignorance as a badge of honor. Somehow, being "anti-science" for many of faith is in their minds an affirmation of their faith.

Why wouldn't you believe that God guided the hands of those creating the vaccine? Why wouldn't you believe that God is working through the vaccine to save millions of lives?

When you discourage use of the vaccine you are killing people. When you promote bad faith arguments that the vaccine is worse than the disease, you are killing people.

You casually toss in the devil's name in our argument. So I will toss it right back. Every time a lie or disingenuous argument is made against the vaccine, the devil rejoices. Right now, right this second 1,300 are dead because of COVID today. That is a lot of pain and suffering and 95%+ of the people dying of COVID are the unvaccinated. Do you comprehend that Statistic?

The devil is laughing at all of us, the fact that the math is clear and undeniable and yet so many muddy the waters with disingenuous arguments and are cherry picking samples and data points in which to make bad arguments is atrocious...
 
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power1

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What I abhor more than anything is those who would purposefully engineer a conflict with the State and frame such conflict as a battle between the Church and the State when no such battle need take place.
In your mind it may seem that way.

The response of many religious types to this whole COVID thing is disturbing. There is no reason why any Church needs to promote anti-vax, anti-mask, and anti-safe measures in order to worship.
Nor the other way round. However, if a believing church preferred to hug and have a holy kiss, and communion, and trust God with their health and lives, why would you cast stones?
There is no reason to be anti-science and yet so many of faith are anti-science and they wear their scientific ignorance as a badge of honor.
Sorry if you thought science was involved on the side of the face diapers. No. No science says that believers listening to wonderful music and hearing the word of God are in more danger than a pack of shoppers grabbing on sale items at a market!

Somehow, being "anti-science" for many of faith is in their minds an affirmation of their faith.
I can hire a science person to say what I want them to say. Same with a medical professional. There is no unified position.
Why wouldn't you believe that God guided the hands of those creating the vaccine?
Because they are soaked in the blood of innocents! That clues us in right away. We also know drug companies influence doctors and media and politicians etc etc. Don't confuse hireadope with science.
Why would you believe that God is working through the vaccine to save millions of lives?
Why would I assume God supported child sacrifice and the associated industries? Just looking at folks like Trudeau ir Biden and the Democrats should be enough to scream out to us not to believe such liars with Satanic agendas.
When you discourage use of the vaccine you are killing people.
Since we do not know what death and danger could exist in the future with the untested mystery drugs, who is to say that by taking it, we could be killing millions and severely injuring millions more? There are no numbers that are true to look at, so how would we know that even today a lot more death might be happening due to the jabs? We do not know. Some say natural immunity is better than the jabs also. Why is that being swept under the carpet? Many say that various treatments are as or almost as effective as the vax. Why ignore those? How many hundreds of millions are said to be slated to starve to death as a result of the effects of the covid fear mongering lockdowns? How many have died by greatly increased suicide due to the covid related mental issues? The best approach is to have people act on what they believe, rather than the Gestapo like cohersion and intimidation that we see today.

When you promote bad faith arguments that the vaccine is worse than the disease, you are killing people.
Well, how would we know? I only promote freedom and doing what we feel is right. If some do not trust the covid circus curriculum of bondage and fear, well, that is fine with me. If they do, well, they have chosen also.

You casually toss in the devil's name in our argument. So I will toss it right back. Every time a lie or disingenuous argument is made against the vaccine, the devil rejoices. Right now, right this second 1,300 are dead because of COVID today.
Baloney! There are no real numbers. Why would I care how many deaths are attributed to covid dishonestly?

That is a lot of pain and suffering and 95%+ of the people dying of COVID are the unvaccinated. Do you comprehend that Statistic?

I do not trust your stats. In some places the majority are vaxxed! Then there is the issue of what is called a vaccinated or unvaxxed person. etc etc. Try to understand that many simply no longer believe a word they say.

Which part of 'no' do they not get?
 
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For the benefit of those who don’t follow the link: this is a pastor who is contracted to perform civil weddings for the city. Althpugh she won’t do gay marriages, she sends gay couples to someone who will.
In other words they had to.
 
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rambot

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For the benefit of those who don’t follow the link: this is a pastor who is contracted to perform civil weddings for the city. Althpugh she won’t do gay marriages, she sends gay couples to someone who will.
Thank you for throwing yourself on that grenade.

It's really shocking to me how Lifesite which purports to be a Christian site, plays REALLY fast and loose with facts.
 
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