WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

tampasteve · Oct 21, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
The point here that I wish to make in what you have posted above is that not believing in Christ is still known unrepentant sin and fits into the category and scriptures in Hebrews 10:26-31 or Hebrews 6:4-8 being discussed in this OP because the scriptures teach that whatsoever is not of faith is sin in Romans 14:23. So if we choose to reject Gods' Word and faith in Christ as our only means of salvation then it is just as much sin as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments as shown in James 2:10-11. According to the scriptures sin is defined as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments as shown in James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Romans 3:20 and not believing and following God's Word in Romans 14:23 and James 2:17-26 (unbelief or rejecting God's Word). So it is not an argument about one or the other it is about both faith and works (believing and following God's Word) because James says anything else is of the devil.

Just so there is no misunderstanding let me explain a little further from the scriptures. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law therefore is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27.

According to James as posted earlier if our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. Therefore says Jesus you shall know them (who is from God and who is not) by their fruit. *Matthew 7:16-20; John 15:1-6; 1 John 2:3-4.

Hope this is helpful

My question was not about faith vs works, although I can see how the idea of the Sabbath as a work is related.

I will summarize: If I were a formerly Sabbath Observant Jewish Proselyte and Sabbath observant Christian, but now do not believe in the scriptural necessity for Gentiles to follow a 7th Day sabbath, would I be in "unrepentant sin"?

It is really a rather "yes, you would be" or "no, you would not be." Assume I am repentant of sins committed during the lapse and of the daily sins I struggle with.

Freth · Oct 21, 2021

Saturday vs Sunday. Why it matters.

The Sabbath was thoroughly established by God, as a day of rest for all men.

God set His day of worship at creation, sanctifying it (Genesis 2:1-3).
God wrote His day of worship in stone with His own hand (Exodus 20:8-11).
Jesus taught the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-12, Mark 1:21).
Jesus kept the Sabbath, in life and in death (Luke 4:16, Matthew 27:45-50, Matthew 28:1).

The mark and the Seal.

The mark.
- Worship the beast and his image (Revelation 14:9) receive the mark.
  - The beast is a political-religious power that enforces worship through coercion.
    - Cannot buy or sell, death decree (Revelation 13:15-17).
  - The image of the beast is apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3).
  - The attributes of the beast.
    - Daniel 7:25
      - Blasphemy: Speak great words against the most High.
      - Persecution: Shall wear out the saints of the most High.
      - False Worship: Think to change times and laws (of God).
    - Revelation 13:5-7*
      - Blasphemy: There was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies.
        
        He opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
      - Persecution: It was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
      - False Worship: Enforced false worship (in the face of scripture); buying/selling, death decree (Revelation 13:15-17).

*Revelation 17 gives further description of the beast.

The Seal.
- Worship God (Revelation 14:7).
  - Keep the commandments of God (Revelation 12:17, 14:12).
    - The four worship commandments.
      - Have no other gods.
      - Do not make a graven image of any thing and bow down and worship it (idolatry).
      - Do not take the Lord's name for granted (in vain).
      - Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
  - Keep the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12).
  - Have the testimony of Jesus (Revelation 12:17), which is the spirit of prophecy (Revelation 19:10).

We know then that the worship issue centers around the commandments of God, the faith of Jesus and the testimony of Jesus (spirit of prophecy).

Not keeping the commandments of God.
Not keeping the faith of Jesus.
Not having the testimony of Jesus (spirit of prophecy).

What are the key issues in Christianity today?

Not keeping the commandments (Revelation 22:13-16).
Lack of faith; lukewarmness (Revelation 3:15-19).
An incorrect understanding of prophecy (1 Thessalonians 5:1-6, Matthew 24:43-44), or unbelief in prophecy as relevant to our day and age. Days of Noah (Matthew 24:37-39).

Conclusion: There is a reason why Jesus said that His coming will be as a thief in the night (Matthew 24:43-44).

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

tampasteve · Oct 21, 2021

Freth said:
Saturday vs Sunday. Why it matters.

The Sabbath was thoroughly established by God, as a day of rest for all men.

God set His day of worship at creation, sanctifying it (Genesis 2:1-3).

God wrote His day of worship in stone with His own hand (Exodus 20:8-11).

Jesus taught the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-12, Mark 1:21).

Jesus kept the Sabbath, in life and in death (Luke 4:16, Matthew 27:45-50, Matthew 28:1).

The mark and the Seal.

The mark.

Worship the beast and his image (Revelation 14:9) receive the mark.

The beast is a political-religious power that enforces worship through coercion.

Cannot buy or sell, death decree (Revelation 13:15-17).

The image of the beast is apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

The attributes of the beast.

Daniel 7:25

Blasphemy: Speak great words against the most High.

Persecution: Shall wear out the saints of the most High.

False Worship: Think to change times and laws (of God).

Revelation 13:5-7*

Blasphemy: There was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies.

He opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Persecution: It was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

False Worship: Enforced false worship (in the face of scripture); buying/selling, death decree (Revelation 13:15-17).

*Revelation 17 gives further description of the beast.

The Seal.

Worship God (Revelation 14:7).

Keep the commandments of God (Revelation 12:17, 14:12).

The four worship commandments.

Have no other gods.

Do not make a graven image of any thing and bow down and worship it (idolatry).

Do not take the Lord's name for granted (in vain).

Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

Keep the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12).

Have the testimony of Jesus (Revelation 12:17), which is the spirit of prophecy (Revelation 19:10).

We know then that the worship issue centers around the commandments of God, the faith of Jesus and the testimony of Jesus (spirit of prophecy).

Not keeping the commandments of God.

Not keeping the faith of Jesus.

Not having the testimony of Jesus (spirit of prophecy).

What are the key issues in Christianity today?

Not keeping the commandments (Revelation 22:13-16).

Lack of faith; lukewarmness (Revelation 3:15-19).

An incorrect understanding of prophecy (1 Thessalonians 5:1-6, Matthew 24:43-44), or unbelief in prophecy as relevant to our day and age. Days of Noah (Matthew 24:37-39).

Conclusion: There is a reason why Jesus said that His coming will be as a thief in the night (Matthew 24:43-44).

I am not trying to turn this into a debate on why a Saturday Sabbath matters compared to a different day Sabbath.

What I am trying to get at is if it is an issue of being a sin for Gentile Christians to not observe a Saturday Sabbath and if so, if it counts as an "unrepentant sin".

returntosender · Oct 21, 2021

"choosing to take a Sabbath any other day of the week is the Mark of the Beast and is unforgivable""
Is not biblical.
This is sounding more and more like an sda thread.

spiritfilledjm · Oct 21, 2021

returntosender said:
"choosing to take a Sabbath any other day of the week is the Mark of the Beast and is unforgivable""
Is not biblical.
This is sounding more and more like an sda thread.

I was giving it as an example as to what some who believe that the Sabbath is necessary for salvation believe.

Freth · Oct 21, 2021

tampasteve said:
I am not trying to turn this into a debate on why a Saturday Sabbath matters compared to a different day Sabbath.

What I am trying to get at is if it is an issue of being a sin for Gentile Christians to not observe a Saturday Sabbath and if so, if it counts as an "unrepentant sin".

The Unrepentant Sin Question
A person should prayerfully study scripture to answer this question.

Sabbath and the Gentiles
Acts of the Apostles 13:42-49

The Gentiles embraced the message Paul was preaching, which included the Sabbath, as they attended Sabbath services to hear the word.

Acts of the Apostles 13:42-44 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

The Jews were opposed to Paul's message, because he was preaching to the Gentiles.

Acts of the Apostles 13:45-46 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

The purpose of Paul's preaching was to send the message of salvation (including the Sabbath) to the ends of the earth—even through the Gentiles. It is still happening today; Gentiles, grafted into spiritual Israel, are preaching this message.

Acts of the Apostles 13:47-49 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

What Did Jesus Say?
Jesus had much to say about sin, the law and the will of the Father.

Regarding the law:

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? [Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.]
Mark 10:18-19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Regarding His will being that of the Father:

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Regarding us doing the will of the Father:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Regarding the character of God (love; 1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16) hanging on the law and the prophets:

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

tampasteve · Oct 21, 2021

Freth said:
The Unrepentant Sin Question
A person should prayerfully study scripture to answer this question.

Sabbath and the Gentiles: Acts of the Apostles 13:42-49
The Gentiles embraced the message Paul was preaching, which included the Sabbath, as they attended Sabbath services to hear the word. The purpose of Paul's preaching was to send the message of salvation (including the Sabbath) to the ends of the earth through the Gentiles. It is still happening today; Gentiles, grafted into spiritual Israel, are still preaching this message.

What Did Jesus Say?
Jesus had much to say about sin, the law and the will of the Father.

Regarding the law:

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? [Thou shalt not kill.]

Mark 10:18-19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Regarding His will being that of the Father:

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Regarding us doing the will of the Father:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Regarding the character of God (love; 1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16) hanging on the law and the prophets:

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Thanks for taking the time to write that out, but that really still is not a straight answer to my question. This thread is about if salvation can be lost, not whether the 7th Day is or isn't obligated for the Sabbath.

Let me be direct:
Is it an unrepentant, and thereby damning, sin to not believe in or follow the 7th Day Sabbath? Has someone that used to observe a 7th Day Sabbath but does not any longer lost their salvation?
Yes
No

Freth · Oct 21, 2021

tampasteve said:
Thanks for taking the time to write that out, but that really still is not a straight answer to my question. This thread is about if salvation can be lost, not whether the 7th Day is or isn't obligated for the Sabbath.

Let me be direct:
Is it an unrepentant, and thereby damning, sin to not believe in or follow the 7th Day Sabbath? Has someone that used to observe a 7th Day Sabbath but does not any longer lost their salvation?
Yes
No

OP answered your question using scripture in post #57. What matters is the truth found in scripture, not my "yes" or "no" answer.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 21, 2021

tampasteve said:
My question was not about faith vs works, although I can see how the idea of the Sabbath as a work is related.

I will summarize: If I were a formerly Sabbath Observant Jewish Proselyte and Sabbath observant Christian, but now do not believe in the scriptural necessity for Gentiles to follow a 7th Day sabbath, would I be in "unrepentant sin"?

It is really a rather "yes, you would be" or "no, you would not be." Assume I am repentant of sins committed during the lapse and of the daily sins I struggle with.

Hello Steve, I was not making a post solely about faith and works I was posting about the bibles definition of sin as being not believing Gods' Word (Romans 14:23) and breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20 and trying to show that you cannot separate the two (unbelief is sin which is what your talking about and disobedience to Gods' Word is also sin) as they are both the bibles definition of what sin is. I was also trying to show how this relates to Hebrews 10:26-31 that if we choose to depart the faith and return back to a life of unbelief (sin) and known unrepentant sin (breaking God's commandments) we can lose our salvation. My post also had nothing to do with Judaism or being a proselyte. Please go back and take the time to read post #57 linked as a response to your earlier post.

God bless

tampasteve · Oct 21, 2021

OK guys, I am going to choose to bow out of this conversation. I am clear on the answer based on the replies compiled on your interpretation of the scriptures presented.

I don't agree with the interpretation of the scriptures presented, you of course will disagree with my interpretations. To be clear, I don't mind disagreeing on the interpretations - I can handle the idea that we don't and won't see eye to eye and I am OK with that.

Bless you and have a wonderful evening.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 21, 2021

tampasteve said:
OK guys, I am going to choose to bow out of this conversation. I am clear on the answer based on the replies compiled on your interpretation of the scriptures presented.

I don't agree with the interpretation of the scriptures presented, you of course will disagree with my interpretations. To be clear, I don't mind disagreeing on the interpretations - I can handle the idea that we don't and won't see eye to eye and I am OK with that.

Bless you and have a wonderful evening.

No problems Steve. May I ask though what is it here that you do not believe? I am a little unclear as to what your disagreement is and why to be honest but of course you are free to believe as you wish. That is never in contention.

God bless.

Ligurian · Oct 21, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
WHY OUR SALVATION CAN BE LOST

Greetings with much love to all my fellow Christians in the Lord Jesus. I thought I would post this as I wanted to show the multitude of scripture that proves that our salvation is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says and that our salvation can be lost if we choose to depart the faith (the truth of Word of God) and no longer believe and follow what Gods' Word says and return to a life of known unrepentant sin. I posted some of the scriptures in another thread but they are lost somewhere in that thread which is grown quite large now. So I am posting those scriptures and more not previously posted if anyone may want to see what the bible says about losing salvation.

QUESTIONS (answers need to be supported by scripture)

Q1. CAN WE LOSE SALVATION IF WE DEPART THE FAITH BY REJECTING GOD'S WORD AND RETURNING TO A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

Q2. IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING WHAT GOD'S WORD SAYS?

Q3. CAN WE DEPART THE FAITH FROM BEING A BELIEVER TO BECOMING AN UNBELIEVER?

Q4. WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES THE TEACH IF WE CHOOSE REJECT GOD'S WORD WHEN HE GIVES US A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH AND TO DEPART THE FAITH AND RETURN TO A LIFE ON UNBELIEF AND SIN THAT SAY WE WILL STILL RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?

Q5. IS THE DOCTRINE OF ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED BIBLICAL?

I hope this can be a friendly discussion please based on the scriptures in regards to the questions posted above and I pray that the scriptures provided here might be helpful for our edification to anyone wanting to understand what the bible teaches in regards to the questions above in regards to our salvation.

May God bless us all as we seek Him through His Word.

Revelation 2:8-10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 3:8-11 10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

hupomeno = from hupo and meno; to stay under (behind), i.e. remain; figuratively, to undergo, i.e. bear (trials), have fortitude, persevere:--abide, endure, (take) patient(-ly), suffer, tarry behind.
hupo = a primary preposition; under, i.e. (with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the accusative case) of place (whither (underneath) or where (below) or time (when (at)):--among, by, from, in, of, under, with.
meno = a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):--abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

John 15:7 If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 21, 2021

Ligurian said:
Revelation 2:8-10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 3:8-11 10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

hupomeno = from hupo and meno; to stay under (behind), i.e. remain; figuratively, to undergo, i.e. bear (trials), have fortitude, persevere:--abide, endure, (take) patient(-ly), suffer, tarry behind.
hupo = a primary preposition; under, i.e. (with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the accusative case) of place (whither (underneath) or where (below) or time (when (at)):--among, by, from, in, of, under, with.
meno = a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):--abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

John 15:7 If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Agreed good post and note the context here is to believers not unbelievers that have departed the faith to return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin *see John 3:36; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-31.

Ligurian · Oct 21, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Agreed good post and note the context here is to believers not unbelievers that have departed the faith to return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin *see John 3:36; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-31.

It's a pass or fail test that's being done, IMHO.
Many are called, but few are chosen; and of the chosen, only some are faithful.
Matthew 20:12 will fail in the same two ways that Revelation 3:8 may pass.

"upon stony places" = tribulation... Revelation 2:10 Be thou faithful unto death...
"among thorns" = the world and its riches. Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich...

Matthew 13:3-9 And He spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow. 5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth; and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth; 6 and when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprung up and choked them. 8 But other fell into good ground and brought forth fruit: some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name.
(this is "My word" for Philadelphia: the church of Brotherly love: John 13:34-35)

onoma = from a presumed derivative of the base of ginosko; a "name" (literally or figuratively) (authority, character):--called, (+ sur-)name(-d).

Matthew 20:10-16 12 Saying, These last have wrought [but] one hour, and Thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. ... 15 Is it not lawful for Me to do what I will with Mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

eklektos = chosen, elect.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Revelation 2:8-10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they that are with Him [are] called and chosen and faithful.

BobRyan · Oct 21, 2021

tampasteve said:
I am not trying to turn this into a debate on why a Saturday Sabbath matters compared to a different day Sabbath.

What I am trying to get at is if it is an issue of being a sin for Gentile Christians to not observe a Saturday Sabbath and if so, if it counts as an "unrepentant sin".

The Bible says "sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4
The Bible says that the Law includes "the ten" having "'honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

These are details that Bible scholars in almost all denominations will admit to.

However when it comes to breaking the Sabbath commandment , or bowing down before images or praying to the dead or whatever one might wish to name -- the Bible says "to him that knows to do right and does it not to him it is sin" James 4:17 - another detail that Bible scholars in almost all denominations will admit to.

We as humans are not God the Holy Spirit and cannot say what the case is for any other person but ourselves as an individual.

Everyone has free will. They can choose as they wish. The case is between themselves and God alone.

===================

However this thread is about whether salvation can be lost - it is not about the unpardonable sin. Those are two different things. It is true that anyone who commits the unpardonable sin is lost - but it is not true that everyone who is lost has committed the unpardonable sin even if they were saved before they became lost.

BobRyan · Oct 21, 2021

tampasteve said:
.
Let me be direct:
Is it an unrepentant, and thereby damning, sin to not believe in or follow the 7th Day Sabbath? Has someone that used to observe a 7th Day Sabbath but does not any longer lost their salvation?
Yes
No

James 4:17 applies to all such cases and it depends on what they understand God to require.

returntosender · Oct 21, 2021

If the law replaced the commandments then the 4th commandment has been reolaced, right? Why is there contention over the day of the Sabbath?

LoveGodsWord · Oct 22, 2021

returntosender said:
If the law replaced the commandments then the 4th commandment has been reolaced, right? Why is there contention over the day of the Sabbath?

Actually the law does not replace God's 10 commandments. I am not sure why you say this. Did you want to explain what you mean a little more?

LoveGodsWord · Oct 22, 2021

Ligurian said:
It's a pass or fail test that's being done, IMHO.
Many are called, but few are chosen; and of the chosen, only some are faithful.
Matthew 20:12 will fail in the same two ways that Revelation 3:8 may pass.

"upon stony places" = tribulation... Revelation 2:10 Be thou faithful unto death...
"among thorns" = the world and its riches. Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich...

Matthew 13:3-9 And He spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow. 5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth; and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth; 6 and when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprung up and choked them. 8 But other fell into good ground and brought forth fruit: some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name.
(this is "My word" for Philadelphia: the church of Brotherly love: John 13:34-35)

onoma = from a presumed derivative of the base of ginosko; a "name" (literally or figuratively) (authority, character):--called, (+ sur-)name(-d).

Matthew 20:10-16 12 Saying, These last have wrought [but] one hour, and Thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. ... 15 Is it not lawful for Me to do what I will with Mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

eklektos = chosen, elect.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Revelation 2:8-10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they that are with Him [are] called and chosen and faithful.

Agreed

! Great post and scriptures Ligurian. Thanks for sharing them with us. Who then are the chosen? They are simply all those who believe and follow what Gods Word says.

Doug Brents · Oct 22, 2021

tampasteve said:
My question was not about faith vs works, although I can see how the idea of the Sabbath as a work is related.

I will summarize: If I were a formerly Sabbath Observant Jewish Proselyte and Sabbath observant Christian, but now do not believe in the scriptural necessity for Gentiles to follow a 7th Day sabbath, would I be in "unrepentant sin"?

It is really a rather "yes, you would be" or "no, you would not be." Assume I am repentant of sins committed during the lapse and of the daily sins I struggle with.

No, you would not.
There are many things that were commanded under the OT that the NT is silent on. Those things then fall under the same heading as “meat sacrificed to idols”. Those of weak faith cannot eat (do those things) because they believe it is sin, and so for them it is sin.
Those with greater faith believe that it is not sin, so for them it is not sin (unless they would cause the one with weaker faith to do it in which case it would be the sin of leading another astray). (1 Cor 8)
So if your faith has grown to the point that you are now convinced that we are not commanded in the NT to keep the sabbath, then for you that is not a sin.

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