Redemption

ViaCrucis said:

This is why when we confess our sins we pray,

"Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen."

-CryptoLutheran

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Seriously?
You don't humble yourselves and go beg forgiveness from the ones you've harmed?

Matthew 5:21-24 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Ligurian said:

Seriously?
You don't humble yourselves and go beg forgiveness from the ones you've harmed?

Matthew 5:21-24 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

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Making amends with our neighbor whom we have injured should be taken for granted. That's included in "Love your neighbor".

But our righteousness before God does not depend on our works before men, but on the free gift of righteousness that is from God in Christ through the Gospel.

The Law does not make us righteous before God.
Christ makes us righteous before God.

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans chapter 5

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans chapter 5

-CryptoLutheran

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That's the gospel to the gentiles. I don't see any part of that in the Old Testament.

ViaCrucis said:

Making amends with our neighbor whom we have injured should be taken for granted. That's included in "Love your neighbor".

But our righteousness before God does not depend on our works before men, but on the free gift of righteousness that is from God in Christ through the Gospel.

The Law does not make us righteous before God.
Christ makes us righteous before God.

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If you're righteous only because you believed 1 Corinthians 15:1-8, then you have nothing about which to repent.

Galatians 2:7-9 says there are two different gospels, for the two different peoples.
Obviously, this is true, since Jesus spoke the Gospel to His sheep before Paul had his Damascus wilderness experience.

-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

This is the Gospel to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel

Matthew 4:12-17 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, He departed into Galilee; And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, "The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, [by] the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Nation; The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up." From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, "Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

Matthew 10:5-7 These Twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Mat28:16-20 Then the Eleven Disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto Me in Heaven and in Earth. Go ye therefore, and disciple wholly the nation, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

This is the Law of the Kingdom of Heaven:
Matthew 5:2--Matthew 7:28-29... called the Sermon on the Mount.

John 14:15-17 If ye love Me, keep My Commandments and I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever: the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by this Gospel is preached unto you. (Isaiah 40:3-8, John 1:23)
This Gospel = The Kingdom
Psalms 145:13, 2 Samuel 7:12, 1 Chronicles 22:10, Psalms 45:6-8, Isaiah 9:6-7, Daniel 2:44, Matthew, John, 1 Peter, James, the Revelation, etc.

The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven is ancient.
And it means: Good news, the Kingdom of God is here!
Today, the Kingdom of Heaven exists within the hearts and minds of those who keep Jesus' Commandments to His Galilean Disciples. To-morrow, the Kingdom of Heaven will come to Earth, and hearts and minds will be judged.

John 12:44-50 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

John 15:10 If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The Lord thy God shall raise up to thee a prophet of thy brethren, like me; him shall ye hear: 16 according to all things which thou didst desire of the Lord thy God in Choreb in the day of the assembly, saying, We will not again hear the voice of the Lord thy God, and we will not any more see this great fire, and so we shall not die. 17 And the Lord said to me, They have spoken rightly all that they have said to thee. 18 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall command Him. 19 And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.

There's only one Gospel.

Galatians 2:7 says that Paul preached the Gospel to the uncircumcised (the Greeks, specifically) and Peter to the circumcised (the Jews). They preached the same Gospel. Galatians 2:7 only mentions one Gospel, preached to both Jew and Gentile.

Galatians 2:7
ἀλλὰ τοὐναντίον ἰδόντες ὅτι πεπίστευμαι τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς ἀκροβυστίας καθὼς Πέτρος τῆς περιτομῆς

"On the contrary, when they saw that the Gospel was entrusted unto me for the uncircumcised, as Peter was for the circumcised"

Compare translations:

NIV:
On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.

ESV
On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised

BBE
But, quite the opposite, when they saw that I had been made responsible for preaching the good news to those without circumcision, even as Peter had been for those of the circumcision

CEB
But on the contrary, they saw that I had been given the responsibility to preach the gospel to the people who aren't circumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.

HCSB
On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter was for the circumcised.

GNT
On the contrary, they saw that God had given me the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as he had given Peter the task of preaching the gospel to the Jews.

NASB
But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised

Douay-Rheims
But contrariwise, when they had seen that to me was committed the gospel of the uncircumcision, as to Peter was that of the circumcision.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

There's only one Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

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Galatians 2:7-9 says there are two... and proves it:

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; (see Colossians 2:14)

And Paul's gospel of "Christ crucified" didn't exist,
when Jesus taught the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven:

Matthew 5:18-19 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled. (ginomai = generated, Revelation 21:6)
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Matthew 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the Gospel preached to them.

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this Gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Since this last verse is said of Mary Magdalene, then Jesus' whole life was the Gospel.
Heaven and Earth aren't gone yet, so the Law still exists, for the found-sheep of Israel.

Ligurian said:

Galatians 2:7-9 says there are two... and proves it:

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No, it mentions one Gospel. You are the one adding a second gospel that Paul never mentions.

And as long as you have this fundamental error in your theology, then any further discussion about the rest of the passages you bring up is meaningless.

If you are going to preach another gospel, other than the one Paul and the rest of the Apostles preached, then we have nothing productive to discuss.

If you want to debate this, then bring it up over at the Controversial Theology board where debate on such topics are to be had.

This board is for non-Christians to ask Christians questions; and thus far I've only responded to your posts because I think it is important that those reading the exchange might not be led to believe that what you are saying in anyway represents historic, orthodox Christianity. It doesn't. What you are advocating is heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

Ligurian said:

And Paul's gospel of "Christ crucified" didn't exist,
when Jesus taught the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven:

Matthew 5:18-19 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled. (ginomai = generated, Revelation 21:6)
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Matthew 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the Gospel preached to them.

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this Gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Since this last verse is said of Mary Magdalene, then Jesus' whole life was the Gospel.
Heaven and Earth aren't gone yet, so the Law still exists, for the found-sheep of Israel.

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ViaCrucis said:

<snip>This board is for non-Christians to ask Christians questions; and thus far I've only responded to your posts because I think it is important that those reading the exchange might not be led to believe that what you are saying in anyway represents historic, orthodox Christianity. It doesn't. What you are advocating is heresy.

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What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Jesus never mentions the word heresy to His Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

Ligurian said:

Jesus never mentions that word to His found-sheep of the House of Israel.

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He speaks this word through His Holy Apostles and the words of Holy Scripture.

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be anathema." - Galatians 1:8

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction." - 2 Peter 2:1

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

<snip>This board is for non-Christians to ask Christians questions; and thus far I've only responded to your posts because I think it is important that those reading the exchange might not be led to believe that what you are saying in anyway represents historic, orthodox Christianity. It doesn't. What you are advocating is heresy.

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Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. John 16:2

Ligurian said:

What came first, the chicken or the egg?
Jesus never mentions the word "heresy" to His Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

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Revelation 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
having the Everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come: and worship Him that made Heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

ViaCrucis said:

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be anathema." - Galatians 1:8

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction." - 2 Peter 2:1

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2 Peter - 61-2.
1 Peter - spring 65.
What is the "Robinson Redating of the New Testament"?
Which ...Peter/Simon/Simeon/Cephas... wrote what?
Why did the Lord come to the earth?

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me:
Galatians 3:2-5 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
...as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter:
John 14:15-17 If ye love Me, keep My Commandments and I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever: the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The Gospel of the kingdom is the good news that God is King, that God is inaugurating Himself as King.

How does God inaugurate Himself as King?



Jesus Christ is Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

The Gospel of the kingdom is the good news that God is King, that God is inaugurating Himself as King.
How does God inaugurate Himself as King?
Jesus Christ is Lord.

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Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The Lord thy God shall raise up to thee a prophet of thy brethren, like me; him shall ye hear: 16 according to all things which thou didst desire of the Lord thy God in Choreb in the day of the assembly, saying, We will not again hear the voice of the Lord thy God, and we will not any more see this great fire, and so we shall not die. 17 And the Lord said to me, They have spoken rightly all that they have said to thee. 18 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall command Him. 19 And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.
John 12:44-50 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. 45 And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.
Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom.
John 14:24 He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings: and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.
Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the Kingdom and Patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the Word of God, and for the Testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 3:8-10 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name. Behold, I will make them of the assemblies of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of My Patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the Earth.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

Tellyontellyon said:

Jesus IS God though isn't he? I'm confused.

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In context "God" here refers to God the Father. In the same way that in John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" the phrase "was with God" means God the Father.

God (Jesus Christ, the Son, the Word) was with God (the Father).

-CryptoLutheran

Ligurian said:

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The Lord thy God shall raise up to thee a prophet of thy brethren, like me; him shall ye hear: 16 according to all things which thou didst desire of the Lord thy God in Choreb in the day of the assembly, saying, We will not again hear the voice of the Lord thy God, and we will not any more see this great fire, and so we shall not die. 17 And the Lord said to me, They have spoken rightly all that they have said to thee. 18 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall command Him. 19 And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.

John 12:44-50 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. 45 And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

John 14:24 He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings: and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

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Tellyontellyon said:

Jesus IS God though isn't he? I'm confused.

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Jesus' Father is God Most High.

Psalms 82:1-8 God stands in the assembly of gods, and in the midst of them will judge gods. How long will ye judge unrighteously, and accept the persons of sinners? Judge the orphan and poor, do justice to the low and needy. Rescue the needy, and deliver the poor out of the hand of the sinner. They know not, nor understand, they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth shall be shaken. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you children of the Most High. But ye die as men, and fall as one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for Thou shalt inherit all nations.LXX

John 10:33-36 The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we stone Thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, "I said, Ye are gods"? 35 If He called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of Him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?

Psalms 78:56 Yet they tempted and provoked the Most High God, and kept not His testimonies.

Psalms 107:8-11 Let them acknowledge to the Lord His mercies, and His wonderful works to the children of men. 9 For He satisfies the empty soul, and fills the hungry soul with good things, 10 even them that sit in darkness and the shadow of death, fettered in poverty and iron; 11 because they rebelled against the words of God, and provoked the counsel of the Most High.

So, the Law ...in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant... comes from God Most High.

Tellyontellyon said:

When your are forgiven, does this just mean that God will let you into heaven, or is it also a tangible experience that can be experienced now when you are born again?

I've done some bad things, e.g. when I was in school me and some others teased a boy and he hung himself that night.
As an adult I went to prison for hitting somebody, he suffered brain damage.
There have been lots of things...

What is it like to be forgiven?

I feel heavy in my heart at times. As I get older, I feel more understanding of what I've done and it just feels sadder..
The guy I hit survived, but he died a few years ago. I wonder about his family, his mother.

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Wow! Thank you for sharing that with us. We have all done stuff that hurts other (sin), which burdens our conscience. People will try many ways to squelch the pain, forget the memory, and replace the thought. Many try alcohol, drugs, sex, work, doing good deeds, praying to some god, and talking to a psychiatrist, which can seem to “help” for a while. The only true relieve comes with God’s forgiveness and taking these tragedies and turning them into assess. The Christian God Loves you and He has shown that Love in allowing His perfect son to go to the cross. Christ going to the cross not only shows how bad sin is, but also provides a way for you to be fairly, justly, lovingly disciplined for your sins. You personally caused Christ to go to that cross, but He willingly did it so you could empathetically be crucified with Him. As you love Him more and realize what He did because of you and to help you, you will feel greater pain over what He did, but also at the same time feel the greatest Love you could ever experience. Accepting Christ in Baptism is also accepting the indwelling Holy Spirit. All your past sins then become assess like Paul used his past sins. “This is the way I was and what I did, but Christ came into my life and this is the way He made a huge change in my life. You are no longer that person who did all those bad things, but a new born again person.

Ligurian said:

Jesus' Father is God Most High.

Psalms 82:1-8 God stands in the assembly of gods, and in the midst of them will judge gods. How long will ye judge unrighteously, and accept the persons of sinners? Judge the orphan and poor, do justice to the low and needy. Rescue the needy, and deliver the poor out of the hand of the sinner. They know not, nor understand, they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth shall be shaken. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you children of the Most High. But ye die as men, and fall as one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for Thou shalt inherit all nations.LXX

John 10:33-36 The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we stone Thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, "I said, Ye are gods"? 35 If He called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of Him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?

Psalms 78:56 Yet they tempted and provoked the Most High God, and kept not His testimonies.

Psalms 107:8-11 Let them acknowledge to the Lord His mercies, and His wonderful works to the children of men. 9 For He satisfies the empty soul, and fills the hungry soul with good things, 10 even them that sit in darkness and the shadow of death, fettered in poverty and iron; 11 because they rebelled against the words of God, and provoked the counsel of the Most High.

So, the Law ...in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant... comes from God Most High.

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Jesus is also El Elyon, the Most High God.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Jesus is also El Elyon, the Most High God.

-CryptoLutheran

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John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for My Father is greater than I.

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?

Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 22:43-45 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto My Lord, Sit thou on My right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call Him Lord, how is He his son?

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and am set down with my Father on His throne.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star.

Daniel 7:13-14 I beheld in the night vision, and, lo, one coming with the clouds of heaven as the Son of man, and He came on to the Ancient of days, and was brought near to Him. 14 And to Him was given the dominion, and the honour, and the kingdom; and all nations, tribes, and languages, shall serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His Kingdom shall not be destroyed.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment: what I should say and what I should speak.

bling said:

Wow! Thank you for sharing that with us. We have all done stuff that hurts other (sin), which burdens our conscience. People will try many ways to squelch the pain, forget the memory, and replace the thought. Many try alcohol, drugs, sex, work, doing good deeds, praying to some god, and talking to a psychiatrist, which can seem to “help” for a while. The only true relieve comes with God’s forgiveness and taking these tragedies and turning them into assess. The Christian God Loves you and He has shown that Love in allowing His perfect son to go to the cross. Christ going to the cross not only shows how bad sin is, but also provides a way for you to be fairly, justly, lovingly disciplined for your sins. You personally caused Christ to go to that cross, but He willingly did it so you could empathetically be crucified with Him. As you love Him more and realize what He did because of you and to help you, you will feel greater pain over what He did, but also at the same time feel the greatest Love you could ever experience. Accepting Christ in Baptism is also accepting the indwelling Holy Spirit. All your past sins then become assess like Paul used his past sins. “This is the way I was and what I did, but Christ came into my life and this is the way He made a huge change in my life. You are no longer that person who did all those bad things, but a new born again person.

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Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto His Disciples, "If any [man] will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

Matthew 9:35-38 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. 36 But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. 37 Then saith He unto His Disciples, The harvest truly [is] plenteous, but the labourers [are] few; 38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that He will send forth labourers into His harvest.*
Matthew 10:1-7 And when He had called unto His Twelve Disciples, He gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the Twelve Apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James [son] of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James [son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

______________
* Chapter breaks are added by the translators... in some very strange places.
The same thing is true of the punctuation of the KJV... Matthew 10:2-3, above.
Which is still better than adding words that were never there in the original autographs.

Ligurian said:

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for My Father is greater than I.

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?

Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 22:43-45 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto My Lord, Sit thou on My right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call Him Lord, how is He his son?

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and am set down with my Father on His throne.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star.

Daniel 7:13-14 I beheld in the night vision, and, lo, one coming with the clouds of heaven as the Son of man, and He came on to the Ancient of days, and was brought near to Him. 14 And to Him was given the dominion, and the honour, and the kingdom; and all nations, tribes, and languages, shall serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His Kingdom shall not be destroyed.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment: what I should say and what I should speak.

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If you deny that the Son is homoousios with the Father, that He is true and very God, then I'm not sure why you are posting here.

The purpose of this board is for non-Christians to ask questions of Chrsitians who confess the Nicene Creed.

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, of the same Being with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, in accordance with the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

-CryptoLutheran

Ligurian said:

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for My Father is greater than I.

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?

Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 22:43-45 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto My Lord, Sit thou on My right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call Him Lord, how is He his son?

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and am set down with my Father on His throne.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star.

Daniel 7:13-14 I beheld in the night vision, and, lo, one coming with the clouds of heaven as the Son of man, and He came on to the Ancient of days, and was brought near to Him. 14 And to Him was given the dominion, and the honour, and the kingdom; and all nations, tribes, and languages, shall serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His Kingdom shall not be destroyed.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment: what I should say and what I should speak.

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ViaCrucis said:

If you deny that the Son is homoousios with the Father, that He is true and very God, then I'm not sure why you are posting here.

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All I did was quote the Scriptures.
Your conclusions are about those Scriptures... not me.

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of My hand. My Father, which gave [them] Me, is greater than all; and none is able to pluck [them] out of My Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one."--John 10:26-30

esmen = first person plural indicative of eimi; we are:--are, be, have our being.

So... that's actually Jesus saying that both He and the Father are God.

This is the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. In this Gospel, those who bear false witness are Commanded to ask forgiveness, Matthew 5:21-24, because bearing false witness is worse than calling someone a fool. Remember the audience, and act according to your belief.