The Gospel of UR: What's the message?

Clare73 said:

The teachable. . .

And to study on our own. . .

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I give up!

Hmm said:

I give up!

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See Isaiah 53:4-8.

Sons of God



That the Sons of God where angels which lost their first estate has been a controversy for ages. Many have viewed this as myth but many have not. I will use two references here to support the Sons of God being angels. 1) Old Testament Step Two World Wide Bible Institute (WWBI) Source of Light Ministries, International, Madison, GA. and 2) The Origin of Heathendom by Ben Adam Bethany Fellowship Inc..

“Notice the language, the sons of God saw the daughters of men . . . and they took them wives (Genesis 6:2). The title, the sons of God (literally B'ney ha Elohim) is never used in the Old Testament except in reference to angels. WWBI Old Testament Step Two Pg. 3

We see the same in Job 1:6 concerning Sons of God (bold my emphasis).

Now there was a day when the Sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Controversy starts in verse 6:4 with the word Giants in the KJV

“Actually, the word-translated giants is not the usual word for giant in the Old Testament, which is rapha. The word here is nephilim, which actually means "fallen ones." This would lead us to Jude 1:6, which says, And the angels which kept not their first estate (i.e., fell from their original state), but left their own habitation. They cohabited with the daughters of men.” WWBI Old Testament Step Two Pg. 4

The NIV rightfully use the word Nephilim. The fallen ones (Nephilims) which kept not there first estate but abandon the habitation.

Jude1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

“Ben Adam says this,

“ The Nephilim (fallen ones) were on the earth in those days. They failed to keep their position in the heavens, because for evil purposes they came down to earth and took up their abode thereon. The “sons of God” that took them wives of all they chose were the angels that kept not their first estate.” Pg 108

But this does not explain how they could co-habituate with the daughters of Adam and bear children “mighty men of old”. Ben Adams goes on to explain…

“But this angels did something else. They left their proper habitation… The Greek word translated habitation occurs only twice in the N.T. Jude 6 and 2 Cor. V.2. If we had only its occurrence in Jude to guide us, we could not say definitely what it meant. But its meaning is clear in Corinthians. There, without a shadow of doubt it means the resurrection body. But we learn from scripture that the resurrection body is a spiritual body. Then on the generally accepted principle of interpretation of explaining the unknown by the known, we can explain the word in Jude by the meaning that it undoubtedly bears in Corinthians. Thus we learn that these angels not only left there their heavenly home, but left their spiritual bodies also. Pg. 109

Here is strong definition of the word habitation (#3613)

The Strong's Ref. # 3613 Romanized oiketerion Pronounced oy-kay-tay'-ree-on

neuter of a presumed derivative of GSN3611 (equivalent to GSN3612); a residence (literally or figuratively): KJV--habitation, house.

Here are both verses Jude 6 and 2 Corinthians 5:2 (my emphasis in bold)

Jude 6. |0032| angels |5037| And |3588| those |3361| not |5083| having kept |3588| the |1438| of themselves |0746| first place, |0235| but |0620| having deserted |3588| the |2398| own |3613| home, |1519| unto |2920| {the} Judgment |3173| of {the} great |2250| Day |1199| in chains |0126| eternal |5259| under |2217| blackness |5083| He has kept,

KJV And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day

2 Corinthians 5:2. |2532| indeed |1063| For |1722| in |5129| this |4727| we groan, |3588| the |3613| for living place |2257| of us |1537| out of |3772| Heaven |1902| to put on |1971| greatly desiring,

KJV For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The point in all this is to bring into the forefront the spiritual warfare we to often forget.

Satan had sent a contingent of fallen angels to ruin the line promised seed.

Sorry post was for another topic

Saint Steven said:

Hopefully you are aware of this. (scripture below) Same principle. @MMXX

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

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So, what happens if what we have built doesn't survive ... ?

Personally, I think Paul is using metaphor rather than making an ultra literal statement. But that's me.

Saint Steven said:

Hopefully you are aware of this. (scripture below) Same principle. @MMXX

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

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I have never seen that verse as speaking of the afterlife. It's about doing good works on this Earth.

Saint Steven said:

Well, let's discuss.
Verse 13 says, "the Day will bring it to light." What "Day"? (capital D)
Verse 14 says, "the builder will receive a reward." Rewards in the afterlife.
Verse 15 says, if the builder suffers loss, they will "yet be saved" Salvation.
These are obvious references to the judgment in the afterlife.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Hopefully you are aware of this. (scripture below) Same principle. @MMXX

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

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It's saying you can't get to heaven by your works. If you are grounded in Christ your works will survive. If not they are straw and meaningless. It's not a literal fire, it's the test of what you have done here on earth. And even if it's straw, but if you have Christ you will still be saved. It seems to me that you will then not receive as much reward, at least initially, which is fair. So what happens to the person who hasn't laid any foundation at all?

The wider context is church work or teaching others, so you could say this is about making sure to teach correct doctrine, and if you don't, it's straw.

renniks said:

I have never seen that verse as speaking of the afterlife. It's about doing good works on this Earth.

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I've never heard of it not being about being judged in the afterlife for how one conducted things on earth.

renniks said:

The wider context is church work or teaching others, so you could say this is about making sure to teach correct doctrine, and if you don't, it's straw.

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That's quite a stretch. The passage does not mention church work or teaching at all.

renniks said:

It's saying you can't get to heaven by your works. If you are grounded in Christ your works will survive. If not they are straw and meaningless. It's not a literal fire, it's the test of what you have done here on earth. And even if it's straw, but if you have Christ you will still be saved. It seems to me that you will then not receive as much reward, at least initially, which is fair. So what happens to the person who hasn't laid any foundation at all?

The wider context is church work or teaching others, so you could say this is about making sure to teach correct doctrine, and if you don't, it's straw.

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That's a good point, renniks. From the flow of Paul's thought throughout the whole of chapter 3, it looks like his focus was primarily about those other people who, as "leading ministers," were teaching over the lay level of the Church like he was. And he was indicating that those who decide to teach should be careful lest they (and their work) end up being destroyed.

2PhiloVoid said:

That's a good point, renniks. From the flow of Paul's thought throughout the whole of chapter 3, it looks like his focus was primarily about those other people who, as "leading ministers," were teaching over the lay level of the Church like he was. And he was indicating that those who decide to teach should be careful lest they (and their work) end up being destroyed.

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Or, given the usually usage of the imagery of fire, straw and chaff in scripture, he is not confining himself to ministry expounding a wider spiritual truth. Just saying.

Hmm said:

Or, given the usually usage of the imagery of fire, straw and chaff in scripture, he is not confining himself to ministry expounding a wider spiritual truth. Just saying.

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My apologies, but I'm not understanding what you're saying here, brother Hmm. I'm under the impression from the flow of the passage that everything in chapter 3 is tied together. We can't lift verses from it and then interpret it apart from all the rest that is being said.

So, when Paul is talking about how to build upon the foundation, the only one we can have is Jesus Christ (in the way Paul was teaching), and in addressing in follow up the fact that the Corinthian church had trouble-makers among it who wanted to assume "teaching leadership" and were thus causing divisions among the Church with favoritism, he was warning them "all" to not assume they can just teach whatever they feel like since some teachings can end up actually defiling the Church. And Paul says God will destroy those who defile the Church.

Saint Steven said:

I have always understood this to be a comparison between self-initiated works and God-initiated works. Even Jesus said he could do nothing on his own. (John 5:19)

The Christian that wakes up in the morning thinking, "What can I do for God today?", is already off on the wrong foot. They are in for a whole day of wood, hay, and straw.

When will we learn from Jesus? (John 5:19) That is where the gold, silver, costly stones are. Listen to God for SPECIFIC instructions. Don't just make stuff up. Jesus didn't do that.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Well, let's discuss.
Verse 13 says, "the Day will bring it to light." What "Day"? (capital D)
Verse 14 says, "the builder will receive a reward." Rewards in the afterlife.
Verse 15 says, if the builder suffers loss, they will "yet be saved" Salvation.
These are obvious references to the judgment in the afterlife.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Hopefully you are aware of this. (scripture below) Same principle. @MMXX

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

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Not that I disagree with the general idea of your response here, Steven, but the 'wider context' of what Paul wrote to the Corinthians was that [as far as we can tell] there wasn't any Gospel of John (or the Synoptics) that the Corintians could just casually 'go read.' So, where was Paul, who laid the foundation for the Corinthians, getting his materials?

2PhiloVoid said:

My apologies, but I'm not understanding what you're saying here, brother Hmm. I'm under the impression from the flow of the passage that everything in chapter 3 is tied together. We can't lift verses from it and then interpret it apart from all the rest that is being said.

So, when Paul is talking about how to build upon the foundation, the only one we can have is Jesus Christ (in the way Paul was teaching), and in addressing in follow up the fact that the Corinthian church had trouble-makers among it who wanted to assume "teaching leadership" and were thus causing divisions among the Church with favoritism, he was warning them "all" to not assume they can just teach whatever they feel like since some teachings can end up actually defiling the Church. And Paul says God will destroy those who defile the Church.

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You need to consider the wider exegetical and hermeneutical meaning of fire imagery within the context of scripture as a whole yet still paying specific attention as to how the verse structure and rhythmic devices of this particular passage are used to underline this, reinforce that and come to terms with the fundamental dichotomies of the other so that the reader is left with no doubt as to what it is about. I humbly suggest.