Once again, what are we to make of Zechariah 14:16-19?

Biblewriter

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Biblewriter, the nations which came against Jerusalem were the Zealot factions which originated from "Galilee of the Gentiles". You of course will remember "Judas of Galilee" in Acts 5:37 who led an insurrection against Rome. Zealotry originating from "Galilee of the Gentiles" was the cause of the holy city being trampled underfoot for 42 months. Rome wasn't in Jerusalem from AD 66 when Cestius Gallus was driven from the city and defeated until Titus came in April of AD 70. In between late AD 66 and early AD 70, it was the Zealots who were the ones busily preying upon their own people. These Zealot factions from "Galilee of the Gentiles" were the "nations" that the Lord fought against in Zechariah 12:2.

This matches the Scarlet Beast's ten horns who "hated the harlot" that Jerusalem's religious leadership had turned into by its collaboration with Rome for profit . These "ten horns" were the ten generals chosen in Jerusalem to prepare for the coming war with the Romans. Josephus lists all ten horns / generals in Wars 2.20.3-4. These ten horns / generals were not kings, but they had power as if they were kings for a brief period of time - only one "hour" - the "hour" that it took to bring Jerusalem down.

That Scarlet Beast's ten horns would end up making Jerusalem desolate and naked, and would eat her flesh and burn her with fire (Revelation 17:16). This is exactly what Zechariah 13:6 said that the governors of Judah would do. "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem." This was the re-establishment of a independent kingdom nation of Israel at the beginning of the Zealot rebellion in AD 66. They took advantage of the people they were holding captive in Jerusalem for their own purposes, and in the process, they only succeeded in treading Jerusalem down for those 42 months.



This language of Zechariah's was meant to portray the sudden onset of starvation, brought about by an immediate loss of food, which is what happened when the Zealots burned up all the city's grain reserves. With the mass of humanity besieged inside the city, desperate hunger began immediately to ravage the inhabitants. Zechariah paints a vivid picture of starving humanity at this point. Sorry you can't catch the symbolism.



You are forgetting something: that demonic activity was rife in the city during those years from AD 66 until AD 70, just as Christ promised would happen to that wicked generation in its "last state" (Matthew 12:43-45). People oppressed or possessed by demons do not act rationally. John prophesied that Jerusalem would have "every unclean spirit" imprisoned in the city during those days (Revelation 18:2). If Zechariah says that the siege against Judah and Jerusalem would continue until the city was taken, the people taken captive, and the spoil divided, even with Christ's return taking place during that time, then that is what would happen. You can't re-write the prophecy according to your suppositions.
You are using your imagination. You simply can not support ANY of this from scripture. I HAVE studied the historical records. And they DO NOT match the prophecies you are referring to.
 
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You are using your imagination. You simply can not support ANY of this from scripture. I HAVE studied the historical records. And they DO NOT match the prophecies you are referring to.

I'm quoting scripture from all over the place. It all aligns perfectly. All I can say is to keep studying if you haven't found any matches yet. Others have found historical records matching the prophesies, even if you have not.

I'm puzzled. Why does the subject of the Zealots seem to be so irritating to you? This is a matter of common record for the nation of Israel. Christ even had a converted Zealot in his own inner circle - Simon Zelotes. And He spoke of divisions growing ever stronger between the people of Israel from the time of His earthly ministry. The whole discussion about "five in one house divided; three against two, and two against three..." - this was the kind of division between family members that the Zealot cause created in those days.
 
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DavidPT

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You're right, that IS what happens around the time of the second coming; the coming that Christ told His disciples was "ABOUT TO come to pass", along with all the tribulations in the list that He gave them in Luke 21:8-35. When Christ was done enumerating those tribulations, including the description of His second coming in Luke 21:27, Christ cautioned the disciples, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are ABOUT TO come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:39). That included the second coming that was on the near horizon for that generation.

You and I are not waiting for Christ's second coming. We are waiting for Christ's THIRD coming in the future at the close of fallen mankind's history.


You might be waiting for His third coming, I'm not. By His 2nd coming I am meaning in the end of this age, a coming that hasn't even happened yet.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


The way I tend to look at this verse in particular, this verse indicates that the LORD Himself is the one that causes this plague.

When I then compare to something similar, I then interpret Zechariah 14:12 in the same manner I do the following. By similar I'm meaning both accounts involve the LORD threatening to smite with a plague, and that the latter account shows that the LORD did exactly like promised. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to think He will do exactly like promised in Zechariah 14:12 as well, that it literally gets fulfilled exactly like described.

2 Chronicles 21:14 Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:
15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

Is this something that literally means what it says and happened exactly like described?

2 Chronicles 21:18 And after all this the LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease.
19 And it came to pass, that in process of time, after the end of two years, his bowels fell out by reason of his sickness: so he died of sore diseases. And his people made no burning for him, like the burning of his fathers.

Why would anyone interpret this as literal then turn right around and interpret Zechariah 14:12 in an entirely different manner altogether? To take Zechariah 14:12 in the literal sense means that these things happen to them in an instant, not over a long period of time. The reason why, the text indicates these things happen to them while they are still standing, and that it happens to all of them at the same time, apparently.
 
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Biblewriter

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I'm quoting scripture from all over the place. It all aligns perfectly. All I can say is to keep studying if you haven't found any matches yet. Others have found historical records matching the prophesies, even if you have not.

I'm puzzled. Why does the subject of the Zealots seem to be so irritating to you? This is a matter of common record for the nation of Israel. Christ even had a converted Zealot in his own inner circle - Simon Zelotes. And He spoke of divisions growing ever stronger between the people of Israel from the time of His earthly ministry. The whole discussion about "five in one house divided; three against two, and two against three..." - this was the kind of division between family members that the Zealot cause created in those days.
Oh yes, I HAVE found them. I HAVE studied them. And they DO NOT MATCH the prophecies. They rarely match more than ten percent of the details in the prophecies. And you CANNOT cite EVEN ONE historical record from the first century that matches more than 20 percent of the details of ANY prophecy other than Luke 21, where Jesus spoke of the impending judgment of Jerusalem.
 
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keras

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The reason why, the text indicates these things happen to them while they are still standing, and that it happens to all of them at the same time, apparently.
People say Zechariah 14:12 will be a nuke blast.
But it is nothing like the blast or the radiation effects long afterward.

What does fit; is a Coronal Mass Ejection of superheated Hydrogen plasma striking the earth, which will literally cause all the prophesied effects.
It will be the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's fiery wrath; the next prophesied event.
 
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DavidPT

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People say Zechariah 14:12 will be a nuke blast.
But it is nothing like the blast or the radiation effects long afterward.

What does fit; is a Coronal Mass Ejection of superheated Hydrogen plasma striking the earth, which will literally cause all the prophesied effects.
It will be the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's fiery wrath; the next prophesied event.


As to nukes. Did God ever use man-made nukes in the past? Probably not. Why should we assume He might in the future?

As to your CME theory, even though something like that might cause something to happen like what is recorded in Zechariah 14:12, the timing has to fit the timing of Zechariah 14:12. Which means to me Zechariah 14:5 has to be fulfilled before Zechariah 14:12 can be fulfilled, which means Christ would literally be bodily back on earth when Zechariah 14:12 is being fulfilled. After all, Christ has to have someone remaining when He returns in order to confront them then destroy them at the time. But if Zechariah 14:12 is meaning before He bodily returns, there are no enemies left to confront and destroy once He bodily returns. I can't see Zechariah 14:12 chronologically preceding Revelation 19:19 since it would be the beast's armies that Zechariah 14:12 is apparently being applied to.

If we compare to some of the following though, I can see something such as that maybe leading to what is described in Zechariah 14:12.

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.


Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Ezekiel 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Which in turn could possibly be meaning this, and if it is, that fits Amil not Premil---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them(Revelation 20:9)---since this would mean Revelation 20:9 involves the 2nd coming if Zechariah 14:12 involves the 2nd coming. That assuming these are referring to the same events and that Zechariah 14:12 involves the 2nd coming.
 
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DavidPT

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Even though I'm not an Amil, the following interpretation I do find interesting and that it is an Amil interpretation of Zechariah 14. Some of it it I tend to actually agree with. Some of I don't. Why would no Amils on this forum be on board with any of what this Amil in this article proposes? At least this Amil is not making nonsense out of some of the text like other Amils typically do when they apply it to something not even remotely agreeing with the text.

Here's that Amil Zechariah 14 article I was referring to. I may have posted a link to this article before, in other threads since I have had it bookmarked for awhile now. The article consists of 8 parts yet are pretty fast reads.

An Amillennial Interpretation of Zechariah 14 (1 of 8) - Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary

Since some ppl don't like going to links I will provide a sample from the article so you can at least get an idea of this Amil's thinking on some of these things.

-------------------------

The opening verses of chapter 14 portray the final conflict between the nations and the holy city. This conflict culminates in the sudden arrival of the Lord God and his heavenly hosts.

1 Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him![1]

Verse 2 puts this final conflict into proper perspective: the Lord himself “will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle.” This time when God gathers his enemies against his people “for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty” (Rev. 16:14) is prophesied in several places throughout scripture (cf. Ezek. 38:1–23; 39:1–6; Joel 3:2; Rev. 16:12–16; 19:19; 20:8–9). Here we must focus on the unique picture which Zechariah paints of this event.

The nations gather and battle against Jerusalem, and they are initially successful. They capture the city, loot the houses, rape the women, and even succeed in carrying away captive half the inhabitants. Still, the other half of the city’s people will not be killed or exiled. Why? The Lord himself will appear on the scene and catch the nations in their heinous act of desecration; and when God arrives, he will descend in full battle array. When he touches down on the earth right outside the walls of Jerusalem, the Mount of Olives will split to form a valley, a way of escape for the beleaguered inhabitants of the city. John MacKay explains verse 2 this way: “The message is that the future of the church will involve a time when it will be surrounded by its enemies and seemingly overwhelmed by them…. Under the metaphor of the pillaging of an ancient city, the church is presented as suffering grievously at the hands of her enemies, and yet there has been a remnant left.”[2]

The reference to the Mount of Olives should remind us of Ezekiel’s words, written a generation before Zechariah’s time. MacKay makes the connection when discussing verse 4:

‘His feet’ indicates a theophany, perhaps one where the presence of God causes the earth to shake (Ps. 68:8; 97:4; Micah 1:3–4; Nahum 1:3, 5). The addition ‘east of Jerusalem’ – which was scarcely needed to locate this well-known hill – links this vision with that granted to Ezekiel when the Lord’s glory left Jerusalem and ‘stopped above the mountain east of it’ (Ezek. 11:23). The Lord whose visible presence with his people had then ceased now returns in power, as was similarly forecast in Ezekiel 43:2. It is not of course to some reconstructed city that he comes, but to the New Jerusalem which is the reality symbolised in these visions. It is the city that bears the name ‘the Lord is there’ (Ezek. 48:35).[3]

Dean Davis further opines, “Verse 4 pictures the LORD creating an unexpected way of escape for his people; verse 5 pictures them using it…. Quite intentionally, the imagery used here reminds us of Israel’s miraculous deliverance at the Red Sea (Exodus 14:1ff).”[4]

But what about the details of the earthquake and Azel, and should we expect the Lord Jesus to descend upon the literal hill called the Mount of Olives? These questions will be answered in the next post.

An Amillennial Interpretation of Zechariah 14 (2 of 8) - Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary
------------------------------------------------
 
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parousia70

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Why do you need proof the Gospel went out to the whole world and was no longer trapped in the Law of Moses given solely to the house of Jacob?

I dont. I 'm looking for proof of your claim that such is equivalant to the Biblical "Times of the Gentiles".

What scripture teaches this?
 
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Oh yes, I HAVE found them. I HAVE studied them. And they DO NOT MATCH the prophecies. They rarely match more than ten percent of the details in the prophecies. And you CANNOT cite EVEN ONE historical record from the first century that matches more than 20 percent of the details of ANY prophecy other than Luke 21, where Jesus spoke of the impending judgment of Jerusalem.

This, of course, is your own view, and your own calculated percentages which you are entitled to freely express. However, your voice is but one of multitudes who have done equal amounts of study in this, and have come to the opposite conclusion. I have already cited historical evidences that conclusively match Revelation's prophecies on other websites than this one. Given time, I will eventually list them here as well, as I have time to post in my busy schedule. If you are predisposed not to believe them, I am sorry for that, but the wider audience may well derive some benefit from the information, even if you don't wish to give them any consideration.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


The way I tend to look at this verse in particular, this verse indicates that the LORD Himself is the one that causes this plague.

Certainly it was due to the Lord Himself causing this plague. "Vengeance is MINE, I will repay saith the Lord". The "Days of Vengeance" for the ethnic Jews of that generation who had rejected their prophesied Messiah was done by the authorship of the Lord Himself. That was called "HIS armies" in the parable of the wrathful king who took vengeance against those invited guests who had killed His servants sent to invite them to the wedding feast. (Matthew 22:7). God used human agencies to carry out His judgments on that generation of faithless ethnic Israelites.

This Zechariah 14:12 judgment of a starvation plague was prophesied long before in Deuteronomy 32 in the "song of Moses". This song which Israel was to memorize was going to testify against the Israelites with all the evil that would befall them in their "latter days" (Deut. 31:29) before the "holy people" were to be shattered. The "end" of these "children in whom is no faith" would include..."For a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn into the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mishiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs."

Also in the list of curses that the Lord promised to bring upon Israel should they prove disobedient, was the cannibalism that would take place among them due to the desperate starvation conditions. Deuteronomy 28:52-57 spells all this out in lurid detail. Which was recorded as happening in Jerusalem in the AD 70 era, especially towards the last year around the time when the Romans arrived in the spring.
 
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keras

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I can't see Zechariah 14:12 chronologically preceding Revelation 19:19 since it would be the beast's armies that Zechariah 14:12 is apparently being applied to.
Zechariah 14 is like all the OT Prophesies, is NOT in chronological order.
Only Revelation gives us a proper sequence of events.

Zechariah 14:12-15 refers to the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal. Proved by how the wealth of the nations will come into Jerusalem after that, brought by the faithful Christian peoples, as they gather to live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 60:8-9, Zechariah 10:16-17, +
 
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DavidPT

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Zechariah 14 is like all the OT Prophesies, is NOT in chronological order.
Only Revelation gives us a proper sequence of events.

Zechariah 14:12-15 refers to the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal. Proved by how the wealth of the nations will come into Jerusalem after that, brought by the faithful Christian peoples, as they gather to live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 60:8-9, Zechariah 10:16-17, +


Even though Zechariah 14 is not in chronological order from start to finish, neither is Revelation in chronological order from start to finish either. You might argue otherwise and insist Revelation is in chronological order from start to finish. And if so, I simply disagree. How then does one think that one book that is not in chronological order, meaning Revelation in this case, helps to determine the chronological order of another book that is also not in chronological order, meaning Zechariah 14 in this case? We still have to separate these events into groups where they are then chronological within these groups. As to Zechariah 14 I might group the events like such.

Group A) Zechariah 14:1-5, Zechariah 14:12-15

Group B) Zechariah 14:6-11, Zechariah 14:16-21

All of the events pertaining to Group A) have to occur before any events pertaining to Group B) can occur. Group A) pertains to events in this age leading up to the 2nd coming, and also pertains to the 2nd coming as well. Verse 5 involves the 2nd coming, as does verse 12. Group B) involves a time post the 2nd coming. It is debatable as to whether it involves the millennium. It should not be debatable that it involves a time post the 2nd coming though, yet, many Amils, not all Amils then, and maybe even some Premils, find this debatable as well though it shouldn't be.
 
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Timtofly

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I dont. I 'm looking for proof of your claim that such is equivalant to the Biblical "Times of the Gentiles".

What scripture teaches this?
You need a verse that states the Gospel went out to the whole world since the time of Noah?
 
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Biblewriter

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I have already cited historical evidences that conclusively match Revelation's prophecies on other websites than this one.

And I have already demonstrated that not even one of these prophecies actually match any of these historical records.
 
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And I have already demonstrated that not even one of these prophecies actually match any of these historical records.

You have not read what I have written on other websites, so it is impossible for you to evaluate that material.
 
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