Near death experiences—Can we learn anything from them?

Derf · Oct 4, 2021

Albion said:
What would make you think that something which reveals nothing particularly religious (which is what NDEs normally are like) is planted in your mind by either God or Satan?

Because dying is an inherently religious experience.

Albion · Oct 4, 2021

Derf said:
Because dying is an inherently religious experience.

Well, sure, but I was referring to the nature of the NDEs.

Anyway, you are obviously very much interested in this subject. Maybe you would like to read some of the interviews that have been published in the books by Raymond A. Moody, Jr. such as Life After Life.

Francis Drake · Oct 4, 2021

Derf said:
Or except it was somehow revealed to them in a way others didn’t experience or understand.

I saw a panel discussion moderated by John Cleese (yes, of Monty Python fame!) talking about life after death. It started with NDEs, but quickly moved into other paranormal experiences.

it gave me the impression that the two are related, and if so, that makes the NDEs suspiciously close to demonic activity—at least some of it.

Here’s the link, but please be careful to test these spirits with the word of God.

NDEs are no more related to the demonic than doctrines of demons are related to real bible teaching. You don't stop reading scripture just because you heard some false teaching.

Likewise, just because occultists and drug abusers seek paranormal activity, out of body experiences, it doesn't mean what happened to the apostle Paul was demonic, or near death experiences are demonic, or what repeatedly happened to my wife at age3 was demonic.

tturt · Oct 4, 2021

Did the NDE experience cause them to turn their lives to Jesus? Everything God does has a purpose.

Derf · Oct 4, 2021

Francis Drake said:
NDEs are no more related to the demonic than doctrines of demons are related to real bible teaching. You don't stop reading scripture just because you heard some false teaching.

Likewise, just because occultists and drug abusers seek paranormal activity, out of body experiences, it doesn't mean what happened to the apostle Paul was demonic, or near death experiences are demonic, or what repeatedly happened to my wife at age3 was demonic.

You said yourself that what happened to yours wife at age 3 was NOT an NDE. Paul’s is only assumed by some to be an NDE. It might not have had anything to do with death or near death, just like John’s vision in Revelation had nothing to do with death.

And there might well be some NDEs that are real visions of heaven or visions of events here on earth. I’m just wondering if any statement of the truth of the information obtained in any NDE can be made, save that which comports with actual scripture. And if nothing but that, it seems like the best purpose that can be determined is similar to what your wife experienced, which was good, from what you said.

Saint Steven · Oct 4, 2021

Derf said:
... John’s vision in Revelation had nothing to do with death. ...

I question things we read about in the Bible that are typically called visions.
John’s Revelation and the Transfiguration specifically.

John speaks of being taken somewhere in several places in the book. As for the Transfiguration, it was so real to Peter that he offered to build shelters for Jesus and the other two. Why would he offer to do that for a vision?

Derf · Oct 4, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I question things we read about in the Bible that are typically called visions.
John’s Revelation and the Transfiguration specifically.

John speaks of being taken somewhere in several places in the book. As for the Transfiguration, it was so real to Peter that he offered to build shelters for Jesus and the other two. Why would he offer to do that for a vision?

The transfiguration is never described as a vision, is it?

Saint Steven · Oct 4, 2021

Derf said:
The transfiguration is never described as a vision, is it?

Yes, it depends on which translation of Matthew's account you read.

Matthew 17:9 NIV
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

Matthew 17:9 New Century Version
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone about what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.

Matthew 17:9 KJV
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Matthew 17:9 NRSV
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus ordered them, “Tell no one about the vision until after the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

Matthew 17:9 NASB
When they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.”

Matthew 17:9 ESV
And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.”

Derf · Oct 4, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I question things we read about in the Bible that are typically called visions.
John’s Revelation and the Transfiguration specifically.

John speaks of being taken somewhere in several places in the book. As for the Transfiguration, it was so real to Peter that he offered to build shelters for Jesus and the other two. Why would he offer to do that for a vision?

So I looked up the word for vision, and on some occasions it was used for “sight”, I.e., something someone saw with their eyesight, not in their mind (or however we would experience a vision). In Luke, it doesn’t use “vision”, but a different Greek word for a sight.

I think that particular “vision” was more real and less surreal than John’s in Revelation.

tturt · Oct 5, 2021

Do you know about Howard Storm's NDE? He was still shaken decades later. After his experience, he was a pastor for several years.

Don Piper's "90 Min in Heaven." He was a pastor when he experienced his NDE.

Colton Burpo's "Heaven is for Real"

Saint Steven · Oct 5, 2021

Derf said:
So I looked up the word for vision, and on some occasions it was used for “sight”, I.e., something someone saw with their eyesight, not in their mind (or however we would experience a vision). In Luke, it doesn’t use “vision”, but a different Greek word for a sight.

I think that particular “vision” was more real and less surreal than John’s in Revelation.

I noticed that the way John writes indicates that he actually went somewhere.

Revelation 4:1-3 NRSV
After this I looked, and there in heaven a door stood open! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the spirit, and there in heaven stood a throne, with one seated on the throne! 3 And the one seated there looks like jasper and carnelian, and around the throne is a rainbow that looks like an emerald.

Revelation 11:1-2 NRSV
Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Come and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.

Revelation 17:1-3 NRSV
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who is seated on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and with the wine of whose fornication the inhabitants of the earth have become drunk.” 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.

Derf · Oct 5, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I noticed that the way John writes indicates that he actually went somewhere.

Revelation 4:1-3 NRSV
After this I looked, and there in heaven a door stood open! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the spirit, and there in heaven stood a throne, with one seated on the throne! 3 And the one seated there looks like jasper and carnelian, and around the throne is a rainbow that looks like an emerald.

Revelation 11:1-2 NRSV
Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Come and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.

Revelation 17:1-3 NRSV
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who is seated on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and with the wine of whose fornication the inhabitants of the earth have become drunk.” 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.

The “in the spirit” part is what makes this different from the transfiguration. It seems to indicate either an out of body experience or a dream in a trance state.

Saint Steven · Oct 5, 2021

Derf said:
The “in the spirit” part is what makes this different from the transfiguration. It seems to indicate either an out of body experience or a dream in a trance state.

What about Philip? Scripture below.
Check out a map to see what actually happened here. Pretty amazing.
I think he started from Jerusalem.

Acts 8:39-40 NRSV
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he was passing through the region, he proclaimed the good news to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

Akita Suggagaki · Oct 5, 2021

Original Word: ὅραμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: horama
Phonetic Spelling: (hor'-am-ah)
Definition: that which is seen
Usage: a spectacle, vision, that which is seen.

Cognate: 3705 hórama (a neuter noun derived from 3708 /horáō, "to see, spiritual and mentally") – a vision (spiritual seeing), focusing on the impact it has on the one beholding the vision (spiritual seeing). See 3708 (horaō).

3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).

Strong's Greek: 3705. ὅραμα (horama) -- that which is seen

Ceallaigh · Oct 5, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
My position on them is this (considering true one's only): they are true experiences of visions of spiritual things.

No one who has had an NDE has truly died, which is why it is an NDE. It's basically just a vision which often changes the course of someone's life for the better. We can learn the bare sketches of spiritual reality from them, but they are often too shifting and varied to use as a basis for something more definite.

I agree. In most cases they at least have positive effect on the person who has one.

tturt · Oct 5, 2021

Yeah Philip and others
"...Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid. 20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. 21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went." John 6:19-21
-'"So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the Lord was strong upon me." Eze 6:14

Definitely NOT encouraging anyone to pursue what some call aerial projection/being transported on their own.

Plus we dont need to not categorize everything of similar experience as either all demonic or all Godly. If God does it, it's His call- His purpose.

Francis Drake · Oct 5, 2021

Derf said:
You said yourself that what happened to yours wife at age 3 was NOT an NDE. Paul’s is only assumed by some to be an NDE. It might not have had anything to do with death or near death, just like John’s vision in Revelation had nothing to do with death.

NDE is a misleading name for what's really happening in all these cases.

In normal healthy life, the human spirit remains attached to the body, within its personal temple, and cannot simply roam around.
However, in certain circumstances, the human spirit becomes detached and the person starts to experience things from a totally different viewpoint, an out of body perspective.

The triggers for that out of body experience are varied, but the one everybody will experience at some time with no exceptions, is the NDE. ie. When the body gives up the ghost. (Funny, I typed that sentence without thinking and then realised the exact literal truth in it!)
Even Jesus gave up the ghost!

With out of body experiences springing from near death, the question is whether the body can be made healthy enough for the human spirit to return home, ie. resuscitated or is the body beyond repair, releasing the human spirit for the next permanent stage of his existence. (ie. Going up or going down!)

Ultimately, all out of body experiences including NDEs, are just that, out of body experiences, but the next question is, what caused it?

In my wife's case, as with Paul and countless other, it was obviously the Lord calling her to come up higher. There are a number of books written by believers who have experienced such things without being near death. Obviously, if the Lord is the one calling them, then they are in a perfectly safe place.

However there are many who use occult practices or drugs to induce a separation between body and spirit, and in doing so they undoubtedly make themselves subject to the demonic realm.

Ultimately, NDEs and Paul, and my wife, they all underwent an out of body experience.

And there might well be some NDEs that are real visions of heaven or visions of events here on earth. I’m just wondering if any statement of the truth of the information obtained in any NDE can be made, save that which comports with actual scripture. And if nothing but that, it seems like the best purpose that can be determined is similar to what your wife experienced, which was good, from what you said.

I believe we can be encouraged and learn much from these reports of heaven, even if they goes beyond what scripture reveals, as long as they don't contradict it.

At the end of the day, it's not out of body experiences, visions, prophecies etc which cause the church to be misled. For over a thousands years, the church was taught thousands of different doctrines by thousands of different priests and teachers, leading to thousands of different divisions, factions, and denominations to arise.
If anyone needs wisdom, let him ask of God who gives liberally without rebuke..........
It's time the body of Christ grew up and sought the Lord himself. Then we wouldn't be led around by every wind of doctrine!

Derf · Oct 5, 2021

Saint Steven said:
What about Philip? Scripture below.
Check out a map to see what actually happened here. Pretty amazing.
I think he started from Jerusalem.

Acts 8:39-40 NRSV
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he was passing through the region, he proclaimed the good news to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

Certainly God can pick someone up and drop them somewhere else. Satan seems to have a similar power: Matthew 4:5 (KJV) Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple
But both of these are likely in-body experiences, and not near death. Maybe it’s the same mechanism, and if so, it takes us back to my original three choices. True, from Satan and false, or from somewhere else and false. But now we need to refine the last option and allow for God to give us visions. These would be counted as “false” (not happening to us, but more like a dream) but giving us true information, perhaps.

Saint Steven · Oct 5, 2021

Francis Drake said:
NDE is a misleading name for what's really happening in all these cases. ...

Spot on.

Saint Steven · Oct 5, 2021

Derf said:
Certainly God can pick someone up and drop them somewhere else. Satan seems to have a similar power: Matthew 4:5 (KJV) Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple
But both of these are likely in-body experiences, and not near death. Maybe it’s the same mechanism, and if so, it takes us back to my original three choices. True, from Satan and false, or from somewhere else and false. But now we need to refine the last option and allow for God to give us visions. These would be counted as “false” (not happening to us, but more like a dream) but giving us true information, perhaps.

Just to be clear, I wasn't claiming that any of the biblical examples were NDEs.

Near death experiences—Can we learn anything from them?

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