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ArmenianJohn

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As a Christian I agree. It is not moral what has gone on at the border, nor has it been a kindness. So please do not lump what you think on this subject as Christian.
How can I not? On everything I automatically lump in what I think as a Christian, I can't think in any other way. I definitely put it far ahead of thinking as an American. Being a Christian matters about a billion times more than bring an American.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Gotcha...and I doubt that Syria currently has a robust support system for illegal immigrants, what with its status as a war torn nightmare. What did it do back when your grandparents showed up?
Not sure what your point here is other than to take cheap shots at Syria. I've already told you what they did when my grandparents showed up.

It's a disgrace to the USA that we can't handle immigrants who need asylum while a much smaller and poorer nation was able to do so 100 years ago.

No it's about 2 billion short of the rest of the world....I left out all the people you mentioned.
I think your estimates are off - not that many people would want to come to the US. I know most of my relatives in Armenia do not want to come to the US even though they know life here is actually quite a bit better financially. For a lot of people in the world there is much more to life than money.

Yep.

Nope. I pointed out, like many things, the GND has no plan for commercial flight.What does the GND suggest we do? Stop flying entirely? Hanggliders?
No, trains.
"Build trains across oceans and end all air travel!"
“Build out highspeed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary”.

I don't agree with the first one, I agree with the second one, but the key which is brought up in the GND is the phrase "air travel stops becoming necessary". Even if the actual train ideas themselves don't work out one thing we can do as a society is stop feeding the machine of unnecessary air travel. The pandemic has taught us just how much of our air travel is completely unnecessary. Starting with eliminating that is the key. Most business travel is unnecessary and even counterproductive with the technology we have today. Air travel should be replaced largely with high-speed rail and it should be mostly for non-business travelers.

It's a lie...sold to you, to get your vote. Nothing more.
Well, it didn't work - I didn't vote for the Republican who wrote it or any Repuvlicans at all.

It's not actionable...not without murdering the economy.
That's not true at all. It would murder certain companies and maybe even parts of sectors but it would shift to new types of companies in those sectors. As much as there is to lose, there is also a huge opportunity to gain. Investors are actually excited and impatient for these changes to start so they can make their money. The big players in the energy sector are not stupid, either. Big Oil is not dumb, they are all invested in renewables and ready for the shift.

It's not only actionable, it's overdue.

I'm not at all worried about it....no one is going to do it.

It's just a ploy to get your vote.
Again, it didn't work, I did not vote for any Republicans. Did it get your vote for the Republicans?

Did you buy an electric car? They exist....did you buy one?

I didn't. I'm not going to pay more money for a car that performs worse. The technology isn't there.
Hybrid - a Prius. "Most Reliable" car on the market, regardless of its gas-saving qualities. But then there's that - 50 mpg is a huge improvement from my 21 mpg sedan. Like all hybrids, it's an electric car with its own gas generator onboard. Going full electric is not as feasible for everyone yet.

I've gone car amping with it - the performance is just fine. I'm not racing it in a grand prix or le mans course or anything.

Let's see...we're on pace for 2 million people crossing illegally this year, that we know of, and far more if we count those not apprehended at the border. Since Covid won't likely end, and these nations won't likely improve, it would take around 15-20 years to gain 10 increase in the population due to illegal immigration at this rate.
That's fine, we have the room and the resources.

Do you want it straight from the mouths of the illegals trafficked by human smuggling organizations or the people who collect intelligence on human smuggling organizations?

Your "help" gets a lot of people killed and exploited.
Well my cousin and his family were "trafficked" in by a "coyote" and as bad as that experience was he said he'd do it all over and it was worth it because where he lived in Mexico was so dangerous and even the police were not reliable or even outright corrupt. He said you had to form a "gang" of sorts with your neighbors but you couldn't let the real gangs know you were colluding like that. So, I have heard it "straight from the mouths of the illegals trafficked by human smuggling organizations" and I could even ask questions if I wanted to. I can call him up again but I douvt his story has changed.
 
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ralliann

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How can I not? On everything I automatically lump in what I think as a Christian, I can't think in any other way.
Not all who are Christians agree with it, that's why. As for myself, I see none of it as a kindness to either the people coming, or to the people of this country. I am politely asking you to please refrain from making your views on this as "Christian".
I definitely put it far ahead of thinking as an American. Being a Christian matters about a billion times more than bring an American.
Yes, being a Christian matters. I am a Christian and do not see what is being done at this present time as a moral good. As an American I see our constitution as Good, and our bill of rights as doing good to all it's citizens, not just those who follow our religious beliefs. When I say as an American, I mean that those laws are what made this nation what it is. When people decide to not value them as the cause, by breaking them or going around them are simply endangering us all to bring that same substandard for all of us. To over run the people of this country with persons who are thankful to say "it's better than" where I came from, do so by corroding American law. This simply threatens to bring us to the same corrupt government you escaped. We have seen this same thing happen with people who move to a different state. They move to escape one states conditions, only to elect the same political crowd, and that state becomes more and more like the one they left. In short you are simply supporting and empowering corrupt government, that will indeed slowly give us the same as other corrupt countries.
 
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ralliann

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Not sure what your point here is other than to take cheap shots at Syria. I've already told you what they did when my grandparents showed up.

It's a disgrace to the USA that we can't handle immigrants who need asylum while a much smaller and poorer nation was able to do so 100 years ago.


I think your estimates are off - not that many people would want to come to the US. I know most of my relatives in Armenia do not want to come to the US even though they know life here is actually quite a bit better financially. For a lot of people in the world there is much more to life than money.


Yep.


No, trains.
"Build trains across oceans and end all air travel!"
“Build out highspeed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary”.

I don't agree with the first one, I agree with the second one, but the key which is brought up in the GND is the phrase "air travel stops becoming necessary". Even if the actual train ideas themselves don't work out one thing we can do as a society is stop feeding the machine of unnecessary air travel. The pandemic has taught us just how much of our air travel is completely unnecessary. Starting with eliminating that is the key. Most business travel is unnecessary and even counterproductive with the technology we have today. Air travel should be replaced largely with high-speed rail and it should be mostly for non-business travelers.


Well, it didn't work - I didn't vote for the Republican who wrote it or any Repuvlicans at all.


That's not true at all. It would murder certain companies and maybe even parts of sectors but it would shift to new types of companies in those sectors. As much as there is to lose, there is also a huge opportunity to gain. Investors are actually excited and impatient for these changes to start so they can make their money. The big players in the energy sector are not stupid, either. Big Oil is not dumb, they are all invested in renewables and ready for the shift.

It's not only actionable, it's overdue.


Again, it didn't work, I did not vote for any Republicans. Did it get your vote for the Republicans?


Hybrid - a Prius. "Most Reliable" car on the market, regardless of its gas-saving qualities. But then there's that - 50 mpg is a huge improvement from my 21 mpg sedan. Like all hybrids, it's an electric car with its own gas generator onboard. Going full electric is not as feasible for everyone yet.

I've gone car amping with it - the performance is just fine. I'm not racing it in a grand prix or le mans course or anything.


That's fine, we have the room and the resources.


Well my cousin and his family were "trafficked" in by a "coyote" and as bad as that experience was he said he'd do it all over and it was worth it because where he lived in Mexico was so dangerous and even the police were not reliable or even outright corrupt. He said you had to form a "gang" of sorts with your neighbors but you couldn't let the real gangs know you were colluding like that. So, I have heard it "straight from the mouths of the illegals trafficked by human smuggling organizations" and I could even ask questions if I wanted to. I can call him up again but I douvt his story has changed.
I wonder if the Children who died would agree with this. But since you managed to make it and not suffer the same Say ,it is better, simply because in your particular case it is better for you, and those of you who happen to make it. Kinda the same thing the socialist and the communists among us, say against us. It is better for some, not all. But that is part and parcel of their tactic to manipulate people.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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I wonder if the Children who died would agree with this.
Obviously children who died can't agree or disagree, since they're dead. I don't understand the point of your comment except perhaps as a joke (in bad taste)?

But since you managed to make it and not suffer the same Say ,it is better, simply because in your particular case it is better for you, and those of you who happen to make it.
I'm wondering if you meant this reply to me or someone else. I never immigrated to this country so I didn't "make it". I'm not sure what this comment is for either but seems to be for someone else.

Kinda the same thing the socialist and the communists among us, say against us. It is better for some, not all. But that is part and parcel of their tactic to manipulate people.
So now it seems that you think someone is arguing that all people in Central America should seek asylum in the USA. I don't know why you think that or who has said such a thing. I sure didn't.

This post of yours is encased in enigma and I'm left wondering if it was accidentally a reply to my post because I didn't say any of the things you're arguing against.
 
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ralliann

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Obviously children who died can't agree or disagree, since they're dead. I don't understand the point of your comment except perhaps as a joke (in bad taste)?


I'm wondering if you meant this reply to me or someone else. I never immigrated to this country so I didn't "make it". I'm not sure what this comment is for either but seems to be for someone else.


So now it seems that you think someone is arguing that all people in Central America should seek asylum in the USA. I don't know why you think that or who has said such a thing. I sure didn't.

This post of yours is encased in enigma and I'm left wondering if it was accidentally a reply to my post because I didn't say any of the things you're arguing against.
The "you" and "yours" is a mindset that you are presenting, for them in agreement as to it's morals. As for dead children that they can't speak was the point. Their mindset doesn't get a say, is no joke.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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The "you" and "yours" is a mindset that you are presenting, for them in agreement as to it's morals.
This doesn't make sense to me, I don't know what you're trying tos ay here. Are you trying to say that I am representing a mindset for people in agreement with a morality? What morality would that be? Or are you saying "it is" morality (because you say "it's morality")? This makes no sense on its own.

As for dead children that they can't speak was the point. Their mindset doesn't get a say, is no joke.
Their mindset isn't made clear by the actions they chose while alive?

My grandparents were children when they fled to another country. Some of them lost siblings along the way. But my grandparents know that their siblings were doing what they believed was best, and if there were a way to talk to them after they died they would still have tried to flee because to not flee meant certain death.

If someone jumps out of a burning house and dies (which is how my great-grandfather died) would you second-guess his judgment and think "oh, he probably would be sorry he did that if we could ask him now!" No, it's pretty obvious he was in such a bad situation that he made a deliberate decision to do something else dangerous which he thought was less dangerous as his best chance for survival.

If you want to make the argument that the children who died along the way of escaping you have to come up with better evidence for that than just "we don't hear their voices", because we don't hear their voices in favor of either option, but their actions while alive certainly tell the story that they obviously felt fleeing to the US was a better option, even if it wouldn't and ultimately didn't work for them, because they felt staying at home was certain death or misery.
 
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ralliann

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This doesn't make sense to me, I don't know what you're trying tos ay here. Are you trying to say that I am representing a mindset for people in agreement with a morality? What morality would that be? Or are you saying "it is" morality (because you say "it's morality")? This makes no sense on its own.


Their mindset isn't made clear by the actions they chose while alive?

My grandparents were children when they fled to another country. Some of them lost siblings along the way. But my grandparents know that their siblings were doing what they believed was best, and if there were a way to talk to them after they died they would still have tried to flee because to not flee meant certain death.

If someone jumps out of a burning house and dies (which is how my great-grandfather died) would you second-guess his judgment and think "oh, he probably would be sorry he did that if we could ask him now!" No, it's pretty obvious he was in such a bad situation that he made a deliberate decision to do something else dangerous which he thought was less dangerous as his best chance for survival.

If you want to make the argument that the children who died along the way of escaping you have to come up with better evidence for that than just "we don't hear their voices", because we don't hear their voices in favor of either option, but their actions while alive certainly tell the story that they obviously felt fleeing to the US was a better option, even if it wouldn't and ultimately didn't work for them, because they felt staying at home was certain death or misery.
Death might be the "better than" option, better than those sold into sex trafficking, which live. To suffer abuse and cruelty for years. And if they make it long enough to no longer be of use, end up on the streets. Becoming among those people that are walked past, strung out on heroin until they die of themselves. In their own excrement. Used by some for more exploitation, they can become an example of Capitalism. Greedy heartless America and it's laws....shame shame to it. When the real culprit is lawless government breaking and flouting law. No, please don't put that on all who are "Christian". I do not see things the way you do. I have said all I am gonna say to you.
 
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DaisyDay

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As a Christian I agree. It is not moral what has gone on at the border, nor has it been a kindness. So please do not lump what you think on this subject as Christian.
That does not seem like a reasonable request because being a Christian does affect his thinking. Similarly, I might speak as an old woman, because being old and a woman do color my views, but in no way do I expect anyone to think that I am speaking on the behalf of all old people or all women or all old women.
 
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ralliann

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That does not seem like a reasonable request because being a Christian does affect his thinking.
To request that I also being a Christian, affects and forms my opinions as well. That was my request. To put the opinions he has "as Christian" on all who are Christian to automatically hold to his Christian opinions. And my opinions were expressed as to why it is "Christian" AS WELL.
Similarly, I might speak as an old woman, because being old and a woman do color my views,
I am as well, and it colors mine as well. If we differ on an opinion, it is the opinions of two older women. Imerely asked that he acknowledge one opinion alone does not make one christian and the other an "other"
but in no way do I expect anyone to think that I am speaking on the behalf of all old people or all women or all old women.
Exactly. So it is a reasonable request to refrain from speaking as though one opinion is Christian and another is not. I was not speaking as just an AMERICAN, or just as a CAPITALIST, etc.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Not sure what your point here is other than to take cheap shots at Syria. I've already told you what they did when my grandparents showed up.

No you didn't...let's hear what Syria gave them.

It's a disgrace to the USA that we can't handle immigrants who need asylum while a much smaller and poorer nation was able to do so 100 years ago.

Poverty isn't a reason for asylum.

I think your estimates are off - not that many people would want to come to the US.

You said we could help anyone poorer than us.


No, trains.
"Build trains across oceans and end all air travel!"

That doesn't even exist. Life isn't a movie.

“Build out highspeed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary”.

Yeah why cross the US in less than a day when you can spend most of your week doing it lol?

Thanks for proving how clueless Green New Deal advocates are.


Well, it didn't work - I didn't vote for the Republican who wrote it or any Repuvlicans at all.

Democrats. They pretend to care about it and what have they done? Nothing.

That's not true at all. It would murder certain companies and maybe even parts of sectors but it would shift to new types of companies in those sectors.

Again thanks for proving how clueless you are. Even a small pause in the economy caused by the pandemic has caused massive damage...you imagine we'll just "work it out" if we annihilate entire supply chains.

Laughable.



Hybrid - a Prius.

Then no. You're a hypocrite. Don't blame big companies for not making products you won't buy.

That's fine, we have the room and the resources.

California has a homeless crisis right now. Do you think they can reasonably add tens or hundreds of thousands of uneducated impoverished people?

You're kidding yourself...no one else.

Well my cousin and his family were "trafficked" in by a "coyote" and as bad as that experience was he said he'd do it all over and it was worth it because where he lived in Mexico was so dangerous and even the police were not reliable or even outright corrupt. He said you had to form a "gang" of sorts with your neighbors but you couldn't let the real gangs know you were colluding like that. So, I have heard it "straight from the mouths of the illegals trafficked by human smuggling organizations" and I could even ask questions if I wanted to. I can call him up again but I douvt his story has changed.

Then quit pretending that you aren't supporting the growth and prosperity of a massive human trafficking organization. They kill people and exploit them.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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No you didn't...let's hear what Syria gave them.
If and when you can quote and address what I actually said instead of snipping out tiny piecrs of my post in order to quote me out of context and imply I said something other than what I did I'll respond. It doesn't make sense for me to go further with someone who will misrepresent what I said by completely flipping it around - I'm not going to answer for things I haven't even actually said.

I guess that's one way to get out of an argument - just misquote the other person and either they have to respond to your misrepresentations thereby giving them credence or they will just not respond - either way you get out of an argument you were losing badly.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Death might be the "better than" option, better than those sold into sex trafficking, which live.
So now you're agreeing with me that those people, especially children, who are fleeing Central America into the USA are making the better choice because you acknowledge that although they risk death by doing so it "might be the "better than" option, better than those sold into sex trafficking, which live" back home.

You keep switching to opposite viewpoints on this - I don't know where yu stand anymore on this issue.

To suffer abuse and cruelty for years. And if they make it long enough to no longer be of use, end up on the streets. Becoming among those people that are walked past, strung out on heroin until they die of themselves. In their own excrement. Used by some for more exploitation, they can become an example of Capitalism. Greedy heartless America and it's laws....shame shame to it. When the real culprit is lawless government breaking and flouting law.
I agree!!!

No, please don't put that on all who are "Christian". I do not see things the way you do. I have said all I am gonna say to you.
What do you mean by this? What am I "putting on" all who are Christian (and why do you put Christian in quotes??)???

If you don't see things the way I do why earlier in your post did you switch to seeing things the way I do?
 
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There is no "open border."

Of course not, but facts aren't what motivates those people... xenophobia does. The more imaginary black and brown bogiemen they can make up to scare the uneducated masses, the better for them politically.
 
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ralliann

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Of course not, but facts aren't what motivates those people... xenophobia does. The more imaginary black and brown bogiemen they can make up to scare the uneducated masses, the better for them politically.
oh our lying eyes. Providing an easy market for human suffering, and prospering that market is not xenophobia. Remaining in Mexico, while applying for asylum helped stem this stuff greatly. I would agree, the ideology and tactics, is from higher education these days.
 
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Ana the Ist

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If and when you can quote and address what I actually said

I did....and have.

It was something along the lines of "blah blah blah grandparents made it into a foreign country without being apprehended and why can't the US blah blah blah".

It was basically your attempt to shame people from the US by comparing it to this other nation which happened to be Syria lol.

I pointed out that it was easy to let people in if you don't give them a thing. You claimed they did give them things.

Now that I've asked you what they gave....this whole comparisons fell apart on you cuz you know well they got nothing from Syria.
 
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ralliann

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ArmenianJohn

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oh our lying eyes. Providing an easy market for human suffering, and prospering that market is not xenophobia. Remaining in Mexico, while applying for asylum helped stem this stuff greatly. I would agree, the ideology and tactics, is from higher education these days.
If someone remains in another country they are going to apply for refugee status. It's only people who enter into the US who apply for asylum. That's the difference between those words. You don't even know what they mean.

This is the problem - the people complaining about migrants don't even understand or know immigration terms and laws. I see no point in listening to such people's opinions because they are so uninformed and don't even realize it.
 
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