What it means to have dead faith

FreeGrace2 said:

Are you saying salvation requires action??

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I, and Scripture, most certainly do say that salvation from sin REQUIRES action on our part.

FreeGrace2 said:

No, it doesn't say "leads to salvation". That is an opinion.

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No, not opinion. The verse says “unto” salvation. Not that it causes salvation, but that it leads toward, unto, salvation (the forgiveness of sin, being washed in the blood, being freed from the penalty of sin).

FreeGrace2 said:

We are saved WHEN we believe in Christ for salvation. Acts 16:31, John 3:15,16, etc.

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Yes, if those were the only passages that spoke of salvation you would be correct. But to be an accurate doctrine, this must take into account EVERY passage of Scripture, and there are many that specify physical actions on our part to receive salvation. I can list numerous passages, but I will not mow as I have many times already (but if you like, I will again).

FreeGrace2 said:

This is merely a works salvation mentality. Not the Bible.

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Not at all. This is taking Scripture as a whole, not just the parts I like (as many on this forum do). When taken as a whole we see that, yes, there are many passages that only state belief as a condition for the reception of salvation. But we cannot ignore the other passages that tell us that confession of the name of Jesus, out loud and before witnesses, leads to salvation (not flows from salvation). Not can we ignore the passages that say that repentance leads to the forgiveness of sin (a clear reference to salvation as it is sin that we are being saved from). Not can we ignore the many passages that state clearly that it is in baptism that we are United with Christ, the Spirit removes our sin, we are resurrected with Christ, we become “in Christ”; that the old man goes into the water and the new man comes out.

These passages are all part of the inspired Word of God. They cannot be removed or ignored and the Word remain complete. As with any quote of a human author, if you leave out portions of their statement so that it changes the meaning of what was said, then you have misrepresented their quote (and them). So too, if we leave out or ignore portions of Scripture, then you misrepresent God.

BNR32FAN said:

Amen, the word justified not only means to be declared righteous but also means to be shown or evinced as righteous. James 2 and Romans 4 are using two different definitions of the word otherwise James and Paul would be directly contradicting each other. James is talking about being shown to be righteous and Paul is talking about being declared as righteous.

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Well, if you read Acts 21:18-25, if James was writing to the little flock, and Paul was writing to gentiles believers, would it really matter if they directly contradict each other?

Doug: "Yes, because they still have a heart beat, they breathe, they eat, etc. Just so, their faith continues in trust in God’s promises"


Well the word shows who is in Christ, this way:

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Doug Brents said:

Not at all. This is taking Scripture as a whole, not just the parts I like (as many on this forum do). When taken as a whole we see that, yes, there are many passages that only state belief as a condition for the reception of salvation. But we cannot ignore the other passages that tell us that confession of the name of Jesus, out loud and before witnesses, leads to salvation (not flows from salvation). Not can we ignore the passages that say that repentance leads to the forgiveness of sin (a clear reference to salvation as it is sin that we are being saved from). Not can we ignore the many passages that state clearly that it is in baptism that we are United with Christ, the Spirit removes our sin, we are resurrected with Christ, we become “in Christ”; that the old man goes into the water and the new man comes out.

These passages are all part of the inspired Word of God. They cannot be removed or ignored and the Word remain complete. As with any quote of a human author, if you leave out portions of their statement so that it changes the meaning of what was said, then you have misrepresented their quote (and them). So too, if we leave out or ignore portions of Scripture, then you misrepresent God.

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You are told to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).

Do you think taking ALL the passages about salvation, regardless of who and when were they written to, is to rightly divide?

Goujing: "Well, if you read Acts 21:18-25, if James was writing to the little flock, and Paul was writing to gentiles believers, would it really matter if they directly contradict each other?"


Yes, as all scripture is from God, not from man, so all is for us to believe in righteousness, not to have a way to do unrighteousness..


2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Goujing: "You are told to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).

Do you think taking ALL the passages about salvation, regardless of who and when were they written, is to rightly divide?"


Yes, it is better than not knowing we err by not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God..

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Guojing said:

Well, if you read Acts 21:18-25, if James was writing to the little flock, and Paul was writing to gentiles believers, would it really matter if they directly contradict each other?

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Absolutely it would matter. God doesn’t hold Jews to a different standard than Gentiles. The way to salvation is the same for all men regardless of whether they’re Jew or Gentile.

Guojing said:

You are told to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).

Do you think taking ALL the passages about salvation, regardless of who and when were they written to, is to rightly divide?

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Indeed I do.
Why?
Because there is no difference between any of us spiritually. All are one body, with one hope, in one faith, with one Lord, saved through one baptism.
So no matter who was speaking, or to whom they were addressed, it was always the Holy Spirit giving the words, and the Body of Christ (the Church) (singular) to whine He was speaking.

prophecy_uk said:

BN: "Amen, the word justified not only means to be declared righteous but also means to be shown or evinced as righteous. James 2 and Romans 4 are using two different definitions of the word otherwise James and Paul would be directly contradicting each other. James is talking about being shown to be righteous and Paul is talking about being declared as righteous."



They are the same meaning for both, justification is by belief in righteousness, and to have that you need to have a heart that perceives, a soft heart by the Holy Spirit, through hearing the words that are Spirit and life.

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The Greek word dikaioō has more than one meaning. It is being used in two different ways by James in James 2 and Paul in Romans 4.

Why speak the about the scriptures when you guys prefer your own words?


if any of you speak, you should cease your debate, and disputings in perverseness, and speak as the oracles ( word of God ) that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ..


1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.



That is why, ( and you guys speak your own words instead) that the Holy scriptures make us wise to salvation, by faith which is in Jesus Christ ( not our own faith) and the doctrine reproves us, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly unto all good works, which answers the thread of dead works ( and reveals who is only talk at the same time)..


2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

prophecy_uk said:

Both of you seem a little confused, charity is not knowledge of discussion, charity is showing the faith through the work and through talk you show what charity..

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But charity without love is just as useless as faith without love. it’s charity deriving from love that is beneficial to the believer.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

prophecy_uk said:

Why speak the about the scriptures when you guys prefer your own words?

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Have you even looked up the definition of the Greek word dikaioō?

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

BNR32FAN said:

Amen, the word justified not only means to be declared righteous but also means to be shown or evinced as righteous. James 2 and Romans 4 are using two different definitions of the word otherwise James and Paul would be directly contradicting each other. James is talking about being shown to be righteous and Paul is talking about being declared as righteous.

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I’m not using my own words friend I’m explaining the definition of the Greek word that was actually used.

BN: "The Greek word dikaioō has more than one meaning. It is being used in two different ways by James in James 2 and Paul in Romans 4."



Abraham not justified by works, but received the seal of the righteousness of circumcision ( to receive the circumcision of Christ promises)

Abraham was justified by the work of offering Isaac..

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.



Then we walk in the same steps of faithful Abraham..


Romans 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.


Romans 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:


Abraham when tried offered up Isaac, which is to receive the figure of Christ, by Abraham through the righteousness of faith accounting that God can raise the dead..


Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.




Then the trying of the faith works patience, and patience has her perfect work, then we remember in James, that works with the faith was made perfect.


James 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

doug b

I, and Scripture, most certainly do say that salvation from sin REQUIRES action on our part.

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So action on Gods Part alone isnt suffice to save a sinner ?

BN: "But charity without love is just as useless as faith without love. it’s charity deriving from love that is beneficial to the believer.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬"


Charity is love, and it is Christ, the bond of perfectness we put on..



Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

prophecy_uk said:

Abraham was justified by the work of offering Isaac..

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Abraham was justified long before Issak was born. He was justified by his faith in believing God and leaving his home going to the promised land.


“Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Bn: "Have you even looked up the definition of the Greek word dikaioō?"


1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

prophecy_uk said:

Charity is love, and it is Christ, the bond of perfectness we put on..

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1 Corinthians 13:3 is an example of charity without love.

BN: "Abraham was justified long before Issak was born. He was justified by his faith in believing God and leaving his home going to the promised land."



Yes Abraham was, and then by works faith was made perfect..

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Bn: "1 Corinthians 13:3 is an example of charity without love."


That is an example of not having charity.

1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.