20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Guojing · Sep 6, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Who says believers being sick negates Christ reigning over the earth?

Psalms 103:3 and Isaiah 33:24 says that.

sovereigngrace · Sep 6, 2021

Guojing said:
Psalms 103:3 and Isaiah 33:24 says that.

According to you! Where is the kingdom of God mentioned here? Please highlight in the text!

Guojing · Sep 6, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
According to you! Where is the kingdom of God mentioned here? Please highlight in the text!

Isa 53

16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

18 Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?

19 Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

20 Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

21 But there the glorious Lord will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.

22 For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king; he will save us.

23 Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.

24 And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity

sovereigngrace · Sep 6, 2021

Guojing said:
Isa 53

16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

18 Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?

19 Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

20 Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

21 But there the glorious Lord will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.

22 For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king; he will save us.

23 Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.

24 And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity

Please answer my question. Where is the kingdom of God mentioned here?

BTW, "He shall dwell on high" is talking about God reigning in heaven not on some so-called future millennial earth full of billions of rebels who hate Christ.

Timtofly · Sep 6, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
You didn't answer my question again: where in Revelation 20 does it call the millennium "the Lord's Day"?

What is the eschatological definition of Millennium?

The standard definition of Millennium:

a: the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 during which holiness is to prevail and Christ is to reign on earth
b: a period of great happiness or human perfection
2a: a period of 1000 years especially : one reckoned from the beginning of the Christian era

It is the Lord's Day every time this word is used: chilia.

If you continue to use that word millennium in your question, then stop. Because if you equate chilia to millennium, you have your answer. If you ask where in Revelation 20 does John state 1000 years is the Lord's Day, you still have your answer. Should we do the Scriptural thing and compare Revelation 20 to 2 Peter 3, where Peter tells his readers to stop being ignorant? God throughout Scripture points to His days and 1000 year periods as very important things to remember.

If John had been symbolic instead of literal and used the Lord's Day instead of 1000 years for each time in Revelation 20, would you argue about the existence of a 24 hour gap between Armageddon and the GWT, where Satan was bound, and claim it was symbolic of the here and now? That the Lord's Day would be now and not some pre-Lord's Day fantasy made up by futurist? Would you be able to convince many that 24 hours is an indefinite time meaning 2000 years? Or would you simply say, "futurist are in error and should know it is now, a literal 1000 years and then some"? Would you say, "you futurist really mean 2 Lord's Days to be more precise"?

sovereigngrace · Sep 6, 2021

Timtofly said:
What is the eschatological definition of Millennium?

The standard definition of Millennium:

a: the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 during which holiness is to prevail and Christ is to reign on earth
b: a period of great happiness or human perfection
2a: a period of 1000 years especially : one reckoned from the beginning of the Christian era

It is the Lord's Day every time this word is used: chilia.

If you continue to use that word millennium in your question, then stop. Because if you equate chilia to millennium, you have your answer. If you ask where in Revelation 20 does John state 1000 years is the Lord's Day, you still have your answer. Should we do the Scriptural thing and compare Revelation 20 to 2 Peter 3, where Peter tells his readers to stop being ignorant? God throughout Scripture points to His days and 1000 year periods as very important things to remember.

If John had been symbolic instead of literal and used the Lord's Day instead of 1000 years for each time in Revelation 20, would you argue about the existence of a 24 hour gap between Armageddon and the GWT, where Satan was bound, and claim it was symbolic of the here and now? That the Lord's Day would be now and not some pre-Lord's Day fantasy made up by futurist? Would you be able to convince many that 24 hours is an indefinite time meaning 2000 years? Or would you simply say, "futurist are in error and should know it is now, a literal 1000 years and then some"? Would you say, "you futurist really mean 2 Lord's Days to be more precise"?

Hold on, this is your opinion. We know that. Opinion matters little. I was looking for Scripture.

Timtofly · Sep 6, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
You forget that your so-called future millennium is plagued by sin, death, corruption, sickness, rebellion, Satan, and war.

That knowledge is your own science fiction. It is easy to forget your private interpretations, because they are not godly, they are wicked surmisings, and clearly not found any where in Scripture. You would have a 17 point Scripturally sound exegesis post, pointing out from God's Word how your false accusation of Revelation 20 is fact.

Yes, will keep forgetting, even after every time you post such nonsense.

sovereigngrace · Sep 6, 2021

Timtofly said:
What is the eschatological definition of Millennium?

The standard definition of Millennium:

a: the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 during which holiness is to prevail and Christ is to reign on earth
b: a period of great happiness or human perfection
2a: a period of 1000 years especially : one reckoned from the beginning of the Christian era

It is the Lord's Day every time this word is used: chilia.

If you continue to use that word millennium in your question, then stop. Because if you equate chilia to millennium, you have your answer. If you ask where in Revelation 20 does John state 1000 years is the Lord's Day, you still have your answer. Should we do the Scriptural thing and compare Revelation 20 to 2 Peter 3, where Peter tells his readers to stop being ignorant? God throughout Scripture points to His days and 1000 year periods as very important things to remember.

If John had been symbolic instead of literal and used the Lord's Day instead of 1000 years for each time in Revelation 20, would you argue about the existence of a 24 hour gap between Armageddon and the GWT, where Satan was bound, and claim it was symbolic of the here and now? That the Lord's Day would be now and not some pre-Lord's Day fantasy made up by futurist? Would you be able to convince many that 24 hours is an indefinite time meaning 2000 years? Or would you simply say, "futurist are in error and should know it is now, a literal 1000 years and then some"? Would you say, "you futurist really mean 2 Lord's Days to be more precise"?

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

sovereigngrace · Sep 6, 2021

Timtofly said:
That knowledge is your own science fiction. It is easy to forget your private interpretations, because they are not godly, they are wicked surmisings, and clearly not found any where in Scripture. You would have a 17 Scripturel exegesis post pointing out from God's Word how your false accusation of Revelation 20 is fact.

Yes, will keep forgetting, even after every time you post such nonsense.

Not so! Quite the opposite! Your so-called future millennium is overrun by sin and sinners, death and decay and war and terror.

Revelation 20:7-11: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”

Who are these billions of wicked mortals that overrun your future millennium? Where do they come from? Who are the saints that they surround at the end? Where do they come from? How can they possibly be considered as sinless when they betray Christ and follow their master Satan? You have skipped around these simple questions for long enough.

Timtofly · Sep 6, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Hold on, this is your opinion. We know that. That matters little. I was looking for Scripture.

No it was your opinion that Millennium is found in Revelation 20. You asked where is the Lord's Day. You did not use the words "literally found". That the Lord's Day is symbolic of this 1000 year Millennial reign is common knowledge, not my opinion. Evidently it is not your opinion.

Timtofly · Sep 7, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

It does not matter. Quote all those verses in God's Word about the Lord's Day. Because that is the angle you were going for. Then we can see how literal things get.

Guojing · Sep 7, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Please answer my question. Where is the kingdom of God mentioned here?

BTW, "He shall dwell on high" is talking about God reigning in heaven not on some so-called future millennial earth full of billions of rebels who hate Christ.

I present to you the scripture as requested, but since you believe believers can still be sick under that reign despite Isaiah 33:24, naturally, you would disagree with me.

Timtofly · Sep 7, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Not so! Quite the opposite! Your so-called future millennium is overrun by sin and sinners, death and decay and war and terror.

Revelation 20:7-11: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”

Who are these billions of wicked mortals that overrun your future millennium? Where do they come from? Who are the saints that they surround at the end? Where do they come from? How can they possibly be considered as sinless when they betray Christ and follow their master Satan? You have skipped around these simple questions for long enough.

Where are all those words literally found in Revelation 20?

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2021

Guojing said:
I present to you the scripture as requested, but since you believe believers can still be sick under that reign despite Isaiah 33:24, naturally, you would disagree with me.

Once again: you cannot present one single Scripture to support your claims. This reminds us how bereft Pretrib and Premil are of any biblical foundation.

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2021

Timtofly said:
Where are all those words literally found in Revelation 20?

Please re-read the scriptural text that I sent. I could not make it any larger.

Premil does not add up. The billions of wicked come against the righteous as the sand of the sea in allegiance to Satan and overrun your Edenic millennium. The whole depiction Premils present does not correlate with Scripture and reality.

Timtofly · Sep 7, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Please re-read the text that I sent. I could not make it any larger.

Premil does not add up. The billions of wicked come against the righteous as the sand of the sea in allegiance to Satan and overrun your Edenic millennium. The whole depiction Premils present does not correlate with Scripture and reality.

I read God's Word, your opinion cannot be found in Revelation 20.

So if you want readers to accept your opinion, you are going to have to use Scripture to do so, and not make us read between the lines your private opinions and interpretations.

jgr · Sep 7, 2021

Timtofly said:
I see no Scripture.

Because there's not one whit of Scriptural support for your imaginings.

Do you think history lies?

Timtofly · Sep 7, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Once again: you cannot present one single Scripture to support your claims. This reminds us how bereft Pretrib and Premil are of any biblical foundation.

It also reminds us that 17 points in the OP are the exact same way. Without any biblical foundation.

jgr · Sep 7, 2021

Guojing said:
Again, why are believers still sick today? You keep refusing to answer this question.

For the same reason that Paul was sick.

You keep refusing to recognize it.

Timtofly · Sep 7, 2021

jgr said:
Do you think history lies?

History has been avoiding me recently. Do you think the whole system of prophecy needs an overhaul?

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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