What it means to have dead faith

anna ~ grace said:

And if Martin Luther’s faith was not genuine, what do we do with his theology?

For me, this was the first major domino to fall. Trying to figure our how we knew what was and wasn’t technically Scripture was domino no. two.

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Even if Luther said things that was wrong doesn't mean his theology was wrong. I'm not that familiar with his writings, but I know I like alot of things in Lutheranism.

DaDaBrothers said:

Martin Luther's faith is dead, and his deadly heresy is rebuked by James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Faith alone is dead.

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Do you know when James was written, who it was written to, and what was the context of his letter?

BibleBeliever1611 said:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." - James 2:17

Having faith without works doesn't mean that the faith is not genuine or that it's not saving faith, it just means what it says: dead. Just believe what the Bible says, don't make up your own interpretations by twisting scripture.

Faith without works is dead because when you just have faith but don't do any works, you're not putting your faith into practice. You're not exercising your faith. Your faith is not active. But when you start doing the works, then your faith becomes living. It's so simple. But whether or not your faith is dead or living, it's still faith.

But people repeat the phrase "faith without works is dead" like parrots and think that it contradicts free grace or salvation by faith alone. We often make scriptures too complicated when in reality it's really simple.

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Ok, so you see a dead body laying in the street; is it still a man? Or is it just the ineffectual body of a man?

Actions are the spirit that give life to the body of faith. Without the spirit, the body is dead, ineffective, worthless, meaningless. But with action, faith becomes powerful, effective, meaningful, evidence that others can see and has an impact on the world.

You show me your faith without action (it can’t be done), and I will show you my faith THROUGH my actions.

fhansen said:

That's true. Such faith may be worthless, but genuine. I often wonder of the status in God's eyes of the leaders in John 12:42-43:
"Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God."

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They had their reward from the ones who’s praise they sought more. These refused to publicly acknowledge Jesus, and as Jesus said, anyone who acknowledges me before men, I will acknowledge before The Father. Anyone who denies me, I will deny before The Father.

There is no middle ground here. Failure to acknowledge is denial. So if you fail to take up Christ, you have denied Him, thus He will deny you.

Luther wrote in his introduction to Romans: "a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!"

Dead Faith is when faith originates from within a spiritually dead sinner. When Faith isnt the fruit of the Spirit, after having been quickened by the Spirit in the New Birth.

A dead faith is a knowledge only faith. It is the same kind of faith that James speaks of when he said 'the demons also believe and shudder.' That is not saving faith. It is no faith at all. Faith is as Luther said "Faith cannot help doing good works constantly."

martin-luther2 said:

A dead faith is a knowledge only faith. It is the same kind of faith that James speaks of when he said 'the demons also believe and shudder.' That is not saving faith. It is no faith at all. Faith is as Luther said "Faith cannot help doing good works constantly."

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So what was Paul saying in Romans 4:5?

So what was Paul saying in Romans 4:5?


Good question ?


Now, here is some insight for you people, on your thread title.

Time to wake up a little, while I am here.

Abraham, had a body now DEAD. Abraham did not remain in the DEADNESS of Sarah's womb, to be weak in faith.

Romans 4:5 you ask ? Abraham was in the DEAD, now has God come to Him to give faith in life ( faith in God) and that is why God counted this ( living faith to not remain in the DEAD faith) as righteousness ( as it is the righteousness of Christ to see and believe in )...



Romans 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.



I think you guys want to know more about what living faith is, and to live in faith? What it means to have dead faith is covered.

Now lets go on unto perfection, which is no more a foundation of dead works or of a foundation of repentance from the dead works ( AGAIN)..


Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.



This is your purpose here in James 2, how Abraham called out of the DEAD, received the living ( Isaac) and received him as a figure to the living God, ( which is Christ received in a figure of Isaac, to receive Christ who is eternal life, who lives to overcome death as He cannot be held in death.

Abraham showed this answer to us all, ( until you might see it as I am explaining it for you) that God was able to raise up that DEAD, and continued now in James 2:21-26, this is why Abraham is justified by those works ( of life/ the just to live by faith) and Abraham's faith is witnessed to be perfect through this work ( of living and not DEAD) otherwise no living faith can be believed by us..




Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." - James 2:17

Having faith without works doesn't mean that the faith is not genuine or that it's not saving faith, it just means what it says: dead. Just believe what the Bible says, don't make up your own interpretations by twisting scripture.

Faith without works is dead because when you just have faith but don't do any works, you're not putting your faith into practice. You're not exercising your faith. Your faith is not active. But when you start doing the works, then your faith becomes living. It's so simple. But whether or not your faith is dead or living, it's still faith.

But people repeat the phrase "faith without works is dead" like parrots and think that it contradicts free grace or salvation by faith alone. We often make scriptures too complicated when in reality it's really simple.

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A dead faith is a faith that others cannot see because there are no deeds that would demonstrate faith.

Like the example James gives in James 2:15,16.

Brightfame52 said:

Dead Faith is when faith originates from within a spiritually dead sinner. When Faith isnt the fruit of the Spirit, after having been quickened by the Spirit in the New Birth.

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Reread James 2. It says nothing about the origin of “dead faith”. No, it describes dead faith as lacking action.

Dead faith then is not that which originates in a spiritually dead sinner, but that which is passive, inactive, mental only.

Please note that “faith” is not a fruit of the Spirit. FAITHFULNESS is the fruit of the Spirit.

anna ~ grace said: ↑
That’s a good point. I don’t see a distinction, either. Scripture does not describe dead vs. living faith, there’s just faith.

Albion said:

If so, how do we account for James in his Epistle drawing a clear distinction between the two? No matter how his words are spun or twisted, there is no doubt that he's contrasting the one against the other.

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James' point can be summarized in 2:18 - But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

Unfortunately all the translations that include quote marks, which don't occur in Koine Greek, misplace the second mark.

The verse makes no sense how the quote marks are placed. The "someone" says "you have faith, I have deed". If that's all the "someone" says, what follows doesn't make sense. Why would James (presumably) tell the "someone" "show me your faith without deeds", if in fact the someone has already noted he HAS deeds.

The point of v.18 is that the "someone" is challenging another who has faith to prove it without deeds.

Which is impossible.

Instead of after the first 'deeds', it should include the entire verse.

This is how it should be:

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

This makes sense. The "someone" challenges a person to show their faith without deeds and the "someone" will you them his faith by his deeds.

ch 2 is about hypocrisy. Faith without deeds is hypocrisy. Not living what you claim.

Brightfame52 said:

dead faith is the faith from a spiritually dead sinner.

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No, dead faith is a faith without deeds. v.18

DaDaBrothers said:

Martin Luther's faith is dead, and his deadly heresy is rebuked by James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Faith alone is dead.

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No, faith alone without works cannot be demonstrated. See v.18

FreeGrace2 said:

No, faith alone without works cannot be demonstrated. See v.18

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Now look at verse 26. As the body without the soul is dead, so faith without action is dead.

FreeGrace2 said:

No, dead faith is a faith without deeds. v.18

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Its that also !

Doug Brents said:

Reread James 2. It says nothing about the origin of “dead faith”. No, it describes dead faith as lacking action.

Dead faith then is not that which originates in a spiritually dead sinner, but that which is passive, inactive, mental only.

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I'm not sure that's quite right. The end result is the same (no works), but James in his Epistle isn't saying that if a person with real Faith, as opposed to belief, doesn't "put any effort into doing good deeds" then his Faith remains dormant, etc.

What he's saying is that a person doesn't have Faith if he doesn't live like it. That's because it's impossible to have Faith and not seek to do good.

Doug Brents said:

Now look at verse 26. As the body without the soul is dead, so faith without action is dead.

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So you think James meant that salvation REQUIRES works? Really?

There's more than one way to explain v.26.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
No, dead faith is a faith without deeds. v.18

Brightfame52 said:

Its that also !

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It's just that. Nothing more.

Salvation is described as being born again.

Having dead faith is like what happens when someone stops breathing.

You don't become un-born again, but it does cause damage.