Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

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sovereigngrace

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Luke foretells of this same event, fulfilling Deuteronomy 28:
Luke 21:20-22

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

(It is important to note that Luke 21:20-22 is entirely paralell to Mark 13:14-19 & Matthew 24:15-21)

Now, Pay special attention to Leviticus 26:14-33
14 ‘But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments,
15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant,
16 I also will do this to you:
I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.
And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies.
Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you.
18 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 I will break the pride of your power;
I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze.
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain;
for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit.
21 ‘Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number;
and your highways shall be desolate.
23 ‘And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me,
24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword against you that will execute the vengeance of the covenant;
when you are gathered together within your cities I will send pestilence among you;
and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26 When I have cut off your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall bring back your bread by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied.
27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.


As you can see, this is not God merely turning His back and ALLOWING these things to come upon them...

66-70 AD was the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28:15-68, and Leviticus 26:14-33, brought to pass by the ACTIVE, WILLFUL Hand of God, exactly as He promised He would do.

Matthew 21 Gives us the timing of this fulfillment:
Matthew 21:33-45
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they understood that he spake of them.


We know this Old Covenant Judgement takes place via "The Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" AFTER the son has been Killed.

We Know Jesus is one with the Father and therefore IS The Lord of the Vineyard, indeed He is the Great "I Am".

This whole parable is focused in on Israel’s inheritance. It shows that through their wanton and continuous rebellion they forfeited their original heritage. The kingdom of God is shown here to have been taken off Israel and given unto “other husbandmen.” In His summing up of His message, Christ predicts, in this vivid parable, the Jews rejection of Himself and His ultimate crucifixion. The new inheritors would be a fruit-bearing people possessing the necessary spiritual credentials. They would do what Israel refused to do, which was “reverence” God’s Son. This company would never be based upon or restricted to one nationality, color or geographical location – it would be international and trans-national, incorporating all the peoples of the world. There is no hint or inclination in this parable that the vineyard would then be given back to these Christ-rejecting husbandmen (representing the old physical economy that was restricted to natural Israel), but that it would be given to the whosoever believeth of all nations, including repentant Jews.

There are two parts to the parable. There are the wicked husbandmen that represent apostate Judaism. There are the righteous husbandmen that represent the New Testament Church. I believe the parable symbolically links the judgment of the wicked servants to Israel’s ongoing intra-Advent judgment, including AD70. I believe the parable also symbolically links the blessing of the righteous servants to the ongoing intra-Advent evangelism of the nations.

The letting out God’s vineyard to “other husbandmen” relates to the Gospel reaching out to the Gentiles. It is talking about the period following Christ's defeat of sin, death and Satan, which included when He appeared unto the disciples for 40 days and prepared then for their empowerment at Pentecost to fulfill the great commission. It was definitely before AD70.

The great moment in history that witnessed the actual outward commencement of the vast global assault upon the blinded nations occurred after Peter’s supernatural vision in Acts chapter 10. Peter’s vision of the sheet full of unclean animals in Acts 10:10–16 signified how God made no distinction under the new covenant between the Gentile and Jewish hearers. From Acts 10 (and the incident at Cornelius’ house) the Gospel was released unto the darkened heathen in a significant way. They would now be brought from darkness of paganism unto the light of Christ and His Gospel.
 
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parousia70

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We should always remember, the Bible speaks in God’s time.

Philippians 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

Are you waiting for Timothy's SOON arrival to YOU SG?
When are you expecting Ol'e Tim to show up?
Tomorrow? Next Week? Next Month, next year?
Certainly "shortly" can't go beyond YOUR lifetime, if in fact this passage is written to and for YOU, right?

Is not this God Breathed scripture written TO and FOR you?
Are you, SG, not the "you" in this passage to whom the HS has directed and inspired Paul to address this passage to?

If not why not?
Is not the Holy Spirit, through Paul, telling YOU in this passage that He Hopes Jesus will send Timothy to YOU Shortly??

Or, do you say this scripture ONLY relates, and is only applicable, to the 1st century Phillippians, and that Shortly, means, well... Shortly, as they understood it in human terms back then?

Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal standpoint, not man’s natural position.

If when God tells a human being some event is "near", and your claim is that God actually means the event is FAR away, then what are we supposed to make of it when God says an event is indeed Far off... that it is actually near?

I'm trying to understand where you were taught that God's time statements in scripture mean the exact opposite of what they say.

Can you elaborate on that for us?

In Ezekiel 12:21-28, it is written:

Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, what is this proverb you people have concerning the land of Israel, saying, ‘The days are long and every vision fails?’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "I will make this proverb cease so that they will no longer use it as a proverb in Israel." But tell them, "The days a draw near as well as the fulfillment of every vision. For there will no longer be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I the Lord shall speak, and whatever word I speak will be performed. It will no longer be delayed, for in you days, O rebellious house, I shall speak the word and perform it," declares the Lord God.’ " Furthermore, the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, behold, the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies of times far off.’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed, declares the Lord God.

In this passage the nation of Israel said that the time statements of God’s word were irrelevant.

This is exactly what the futurist claims about the time statements concerning the coming of Christ in the first century. They say, just like Israel, "Those passages were not for the original audience but were ‘for many years from now’ and for ‘times far off.’ " But notice what God thinks about that kind of hermeneutic. God said, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed." He stated that He would say the word and He would perform it. Again, notice the implication of that statement. God Himself fulfills His word. When we try and say that the imminent time statements in the New Testament concerning Christ’s coming in the first century are really "for many years from now," i.e., our time, we are saying that God will not fulfill His word! So the real issue here is not just differences of interpretation concerning eschatology, but the nature and character of God. If the futurist is correct in his interpretation and application new testament time imminency statements (of which there are over 100), then God is made out to be a liar because He will not fulfill His word when He said He would. Plain and simple. If the futurist is correct, then we might as well be atheists because God Himself cannot even be trusted, and then we are lost. Why? Because, if God is dishonest concerning when He would fulfill His word, how do we know He was honest concerning the doctrines of Grace? Or anything else for that matter? It’s simple. We don’t. So, again, this is much more than just a difference of interpretation. Our salvation depends on God keeping every aspect of His word. Including when He was to fulfill it.

Conclusion

1. By letting scripture interpret Scripture, we can see that when God gives a time statement regarding when prophecy would be fulfilled, unless instructed otherwise, the plain meaning of the terms should be used.

2. By using historical documentation we can see that prophecies were fulfilled exactly when God said they would be.

3. That God Himself fulfills His word. And if He doesn’t fulfill it when He said He would, then "we are of all men most miserable."

Therefore, we have a historical, and more importantly, a Biblical interpretation of the time statements of prophecy. Unless otherwise clearly stated, God intended the time statements of prophecy to be interpreted in their plain, everyday meaning. God is faithful to His word. He ALWAYS fulfills it WHEN He said He would.
 
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parousia70

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The letting out God’s vineyard to “other husbandmen” relates to the Gospel reaching out to the Gentiles. It is talking about the period following Christ's defeat of sin, death and Satan, which included when He appeared unto the disciples for 40 days and prepared then for their empowerment at Pentecost to fulfill the great commission. It was definitely before AD70.

Read it again:
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.


The Letting out of the Vinyard to other Husbandmen happens VIA the Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard to Destroy them Miserably, NOT Before.

The text couldn't be more clear:

"WHEN the Lord of the Vineyard comes, what will he do?"

SG says, No that's incorrect, He does these things BEFORE He comes to destroy them, not When He comes.

When faced with these two polar opposite teachings, that of random internet guy Sovereigngrace, and that of Jesus Christ, My money is on Jesus being correct and SG being in error.
 
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robycop3

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I never said that Simon bar Gioras issued a "mark", or had a "miracle-working false prophet". This just demonstrates that you, (like many others) mistakenly can't tell the difference between the Rev. 13 two-horned "Beast coming out of the earth" from "Gog, the chief prince". You want to mash them both together and make them be the same, but they aren't. That is an arbitrary decision on your part, that has no scriptural foundation for doing so.
This "Gog will be the leader(whatever his name will be) of the coalition that'll come against Israel in the "Gog-Magog war". that has nothing to do with the fall of jerusalem.

You have mistaken that any Beast at all was cast alive into Hell. The Judean Land Beast / aka the False Prophet and the Judean Scarlet Beast were both cast alive into the "Lake of Fire". That's NOT Hell. We know this LOF could NOT have been Hell, because death and Hell (the grave) were cast INTO the LOF (Rev. 20:14).
MMRRPP ! WRONG !
No, "hell" in Rev. 20:14 is a KJV goof, a mistranslation of "hades". (That's part of why I don't use the KJV.) NONE have been cast into the LOF yet. The beast & FP haven't yet come, nor, of course, has Jesus returned yet, so that event couldn't have already happened.

Jerusalem itself and Mount Zion, the site of the Temple, was said to have God's furnace of fire in the city, even back in Isaiah 31:9. The Lord's "FIRE is in ZION, and His FURNACE in JERUSALEM." That means the Lake of Fire was a LOCAL and TEMPORAL event for Jerusalem - not an eternal state expected for the wicked.
MMRRPP ! WRONG AGAIN !
Isaiah 31 is about God's delivering Jerusalem from the Assyrian army that was besieging it.

You are also artificially inserting a "statue" as the abomination that made desolate. Statues can't accomplish a single thing. Luke interpreted Christ's statement found in the other gospels about what the "abomination of desolation" was, by saying bluntly that it was going to be ARMIES surrounding Jerusalem.
You can't get anything right in your eschatology. The AOD will be when the antichrist enters the coming temple in Jerusalem, sets up his statue in it, which the false prophet will supernaturally (by Satan's power) make speak, & the AC declares himself to be God.

Back in Antiochus Ephiphanes' days, the abomination of desolation was exactly the same as it was later on in AD 66 - "when ye shall see Jerusalem surrounded by ARMIES". Remember, in the case of Antiochus, it says that "ARMS shall stand on his part..." Living armies are most definitely able to make things desolate by their presence and activities. Statues? - not possible.

Jerusalem was OCCUPIED BY AE's army when he committed the first AOD. so arms certainly stood on his part. And NO AOD has since occurred yet.

You're just completely-wrong.
 
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robycop3

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Because Jesus knew that the Pharisees thought the kingdom of God would be a physical kingdom, Jesus told them the following when asked when it would come. Ironically, you and many others who believe the same as the Pharisees keep arguing that you haven't seen what Jesus said you wouldn't see.

Luke 17: 20Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

John 14: 19Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
When jesus returns, it WILL be a physical kingdom, as Scripture says. He will reign with His saints from Jerusalem during the millenium.
 
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robycop3

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I am not a Preterist, but I notice you make a lot of claims here without any Scripture. Where is your NT evidence that there will be a rebuilt temple and that antichrist is a literal man?
Paul said the AC will be a literal man in 2 Thess.2:4 & that he would enter the temple & proclaim himself God. There must be a temple for that to happen in.
 
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robycop3

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Agag is in the kjv and not Gog, in numbers 24.

I think it is more a matter of mistranslating Agag as Gog, as one issue between the LXX and the kjv. Agag was a king of Amalek. 1Samuel15:20.

Balak was king of Moab. Joshua 24:9

Here is a link to a site that has some good maps.

Bible Atlas

What I am reading is that Amalek was a country, for the lack of a better word, that was the first to try and roadblock the children of Israel from entering the promised land.

So it is not Gog but Agag king of Amalek. The king of Israel would be greater than Agag.

Balak was the one conspiring with Ballam. Balak was the king of Moab, a country east of the dead sea.

_________________________________________________

I appreciate the information though about Gog being in the English translation of the LXX in Numbers 24.
Agag was the generic name for any king or ruler of the Amalekites. The mAgag that Samuel cut in pieces was the ruler of the city of Auris, built by the Amalekites along the main caravan routes in & out of Egypt during their rule over Egypt. (They were the historical "Hyksos" that ruled Egypt for several hundred years. After Amalek & Israel brushed by each other in the wilderness, the Amalekites continued on into Egypt, which, being greatly weakened by the plagues of Exodus, couldn't resist them.)

When Saul, at God's command, destroyed Auris, that pretty well broke the Hyksos' control of Egypt, & that's why Egypt was so grateful to Israel through the reign of Solomon.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Read it again:
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.


The Letting out of the Vinyard to other Husbandmen happens VIA the Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard to Destroy them Miserably, NOT Before.

The text couldn't be more clear:

"WHEN the Lord of the Vineyard comes, what will he do?"

SG says, No that's incorrect, He does these things BEFORE He comes to destroy them, not When He comes.

When faced with these two polar opposite teachings, that of random internet guy Sovereigngrace, and that of Jesus Christ, My money is on Jesus being correct and SG being in error.

My last post addresses all this. You simply didn't address it.
 
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robycop3

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God’s near, quickly or shortly are completely different from man’s perspective.

No, they are not. This is why I keep emphasizing GOD'S DEFINITION of what an "AT HAND" prophecy entails back in Ezekiel 12:21-28. God was very specific in the way He defined it. I challenge anybody to read that passage and be honest with themselves when understanding what "at hand" means.

An "AT HAND" prophecy, God said, would NOT be "prolonged" into "times that are far off". Instead, He would not only speak the words of the prophecy, but He would also "PERFORM" the words of that prophecy "In YOUR DAYS" for the ones first receiving that prophecy.

When we apply GOD'S definition to those "AT HAND" prophecies in Revelation, that meant Revelation's "at hand" prophecies would NOT be "Prolonged" into "times that are far off" to John's generation, but He would "PERFORM" those prophecies in THEIR DAYS.

This is not rocket science, and it is not built upon just a few time-relevant terms. Jesus made it very clear that His disciples' evangelistic coverage would "not have gone over the cities of Israel until the Son of Man be come."

He also stated that some of those disciples standing in front of Him would not have died before Christ came in His kingdom.

He also said that Christ as "the judge IS STANDING BEFORE THE DOOR" in James 5:9, at a time when the Lord's coming had already drawn near for them at that time.

There are far, far too many phrases, words, and parables that clearly point to an AD 70 bodily return of Christ in that generation. So many, that I marvel it took me so long to recognize them as the time markers that they actually were.

But since we know that none of the bodies of saints are abandoned in the grave without being changed in a resurrection, this absolutely necessitates a third bodily coming of Christ in our future at a final judgment.
 
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robycop3

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Preterists make much of phrases like “at hand,” “quickly,” “shortly” or “near.” They use these to support their belief that Jesus has already come, the last day has already occurred and that we are now living in the new heavens and new earth.

The mistake they make is that they always interpret these from man’s standpoint and thus get confused as to their meaning. Of course, from man’s outlook these terms would normally suggest that something is just around the corner. But such terms are totally relative. We should always remember, the Bible speaks in God’s time. God’s near, quickly or shortly are completely different from man’s perspective. God’s soon is not always our soon. Our knowledge of biblical truth, our awareness of the context in question, a study of the meaning and usage of the original Greek words, and our ascertaining whether something is being explained from man’s finite viewpoint or God’s eternal perspective, aid us in understanding the time and event in view.

On this matter, a basic understanding of “time” and “eternity” will explain what we are looking at in Scripture. The phrase “at hand” or “near” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time-specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word. In fact, it carries the exact same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal standpoint, not man’s natural position. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.
I believe "I am coming QUICKLY" refers to the SPEED of His coming when it commences.

And history & reality make it plain that the eschatological events have NOT yet occurred. No matter what preterists say, they CANNOT change history nor reality.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Philippians 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

Are you waiting for Timothy's SOON arrival to YOU SG?
When are you expecting Ol'e Tim to show up?
Tomorrow? Next Week? Next Month, next year?
Certainly "shortly" can't go beyond YOUR lifetime, if in fact this passage is written to and for YOU, right?

Is not this God Breathed scripture written TO and FOR you?
Are you, SG, not the "you" in this passage to whom the HS has directed and inspired Paul to address this passage to?

If not why not?
Is not the Holy Spirit, through Paul, telling YOU in this passage that He Hopes Jesus will send Timothy to YOU Shortly??

Or, do you say this scripture ONLY relates, and is only applicable, to the 1st century Phillippians, and that Shortly, means, well... Shortly, as they understood it in human terms back then?



If when God tells a human being some event is "near", and your claim is that God actually means the event is FAR away, then what are we supposed to make of it when God says an event is indeed Far off... that it is actually near?

I'm trying to understand where you were taught that God's time statements in scripture mean the exact opposite of what they say.

Can you elaborate on that for us?

In Ezekiel 12:21-28, it is written:

Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, what is this proverb you people have concerning the land of Israel, saying, ‘The days are long and every vision fails?’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "I will make this proverb cease so that they will no longer use it as a proverb in Israel." But tell them, "The days a draw near as well as the fulfillment of every vision. For there will no longer be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I the Lord shall speak, and whatever word I speak will be performed. It will no longer be delayed, for in you days, O rebellious house, I shall speak the word and perform it," declares the Lord God.’ " Furthermore, the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, behold, the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies of times far off.’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed, declares the Lord God.

In this passage the nation of Israel said that the time statements of God’s word were irrelevant.

This is exactly what the futurist claims about the time statements concerning the coming of Christ in the first century. They say, just like Israel, "Those passages were not for the original audience but were ‘for many years from now’ and for ‘times far off.’ " But notice what God thinks about that kind of hermeneutic. God said, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed." He stated that He would say the word and He would perform it. Again, notice the implication of that statement. God Himself fulfills His word. When we try and say that the imminent time statements in the New Testament concerning Christ’s coming in the first century are really "for many years from now," i.e., our time, we are saying that God will not fulfill His word! So the real issue here is not just differences of interpretation concerning eschatology, but the nature and character of God. If the futurist is correct in his interpretation and application new testament time imminency statements (of which there are over 100), then God is made out to be a liar because He will not fulfill His word when He said He would. Plain and simple. If the futurist is correct, then we might as well be atheists because God Himself cannot even be trusted, and then we are lost. Why? Because, if God is dishonest concerning when He would fulfill His word, how do we know He was honest concerning the doctrines of Grace? Or anything else for that matter? It’s simple. We don’t. So, again, this is much more than just a difference of interpretation. Our salvation depends on God keeping every aspect of His word. Including when He was to fulfill it.

Conclusion

1. By letting scripture interpret Scripture, we can see that when God gives a time statement regarding when prophecy would be fulfilled, unless instructed otherwise, the plain meaning of the terms should be used.

2. By using historical documentation we can see that prophecies were fulfilled exactly when God said they would be.

3. That God Himself fulfills His word. And if He doesn’t fulfill it when He said He would, then "we are of all men most miserable."

Therefore, we have a historical, and more importantly, a Biblical interpretation of the time statements of prophecy. Unless otherwise clearly stated, God intended the time statements of prophecy to be interpreted in their plain, everyday meaning. God is faithful to His word. He ALWAYS fulfills it WHEN He said He would.

I don't think you are listening. There is a big difference between man's shortly and God's.

2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2). God is time-less.

In fact, Psalms 90:2 says, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” He “remainest for ever” (Lamentations 5:19). He “inhabiteth eternity” (Isaiah 57:15). God shall assuredly “endure forever” (Psalms 102:12) because He is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalms 41:13, 90:2). God is “the same” and His “years have no end” (Psalms 102:27), His “years shall not fail” (Hebrews 1:12) “neither can the number of his years be searched out” (Job 36:26). God is not limited to time as man is, His “years are throughout all generations” (Psalms 102:24).

Moses testifies in Psalms 90:3-5, presenting the exact same thought as that offered by Peter in 2 Peter 3:8, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.” We should carefully note, the passage doesn’t say, ‘For a thousand years in thy sight are but as tomorrow which is yet to come’ as our Premillennialist brethren would prefer it to say, but rather, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.” This passage therefore doesn’t even refer to the future, never mind to some supposed impending earthly post Second Advent temporal period, but to the past. This reading simply reveals profound truth about God and His infinite view of time rather than any misconceived earthly idea about a future millennium.

2 Peter 3:8 is simply telling us that time is nothing with the Lord. God lives in eternity and His perspective of time far exceeds the finite mind of man. A ‘thousand years’ in this life is but a flash in the light of eternity. Moses proceeds on in the same Psalms (Psalms 90) to describe the solemn reality of the fleetingness of time and the brevity of life, saying, “For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told” (v 9). No wonder Moses humbly prays to God, “teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom” (v 12) We should always bear in mind, the span of our years is as nothing to God. That’s why David declared, “Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee” (Psalms 39:5).
 
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The beast & FP haven't yet come

If that is true, then John was lying when he wrote that the Scarlet Beast was "ABOUT TO ASCEND out of the abyss" (Revelation 17:8). The Scarlet Beast was ALSO "ABOUT TO...GO INTO DESTRUCTION" soon after John was writing. This Scarlet Beast's lifespan was going to be exceedingly short, once it had briefly revived for a time.

This meant a SOON arrival on the scene in John's days, and also a SOON COMING DESTRUCTION of that same Scarlet Beast.

And since the Scarlet Beast and the False Prophet / Land Beast were to be thrown in TOGETHER to the Lake of Fire, then their SOON destruction happened simultaneously as well

All this takes is some basic reading comprehension. You are mistaken in the timing of the fulfillment of this.
 
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parousia70

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Paul said the AC will be a literal man in 2 Thess.2:4

You're just making that up.
Paul Never once says anythign about antichrist. Not even one time.
Again, you are just makign stuff up.
 
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Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory;

This is wrong. When God wants to convey a prophetic message to mankind, His very deity is on the line as to WHEN He says those things will take place. In the OT, God actually boasts of being able to "call the shots" ahead of time, and bring them to pass in the specific time He predicts for them to take place.

"At the set time..."
"In the fulness of time..."
"This is the day..."
"From this day will I bless you..."
Etc., etc.

God may dwell in eternity, but when He engages with mankind, He speaks about very specific days, months, years, and moments to fulfill His prophetic words.

The whole "thousand years as one day" interpretation spin you are putting on this passage is incorrect. God was saying through Peter that it didn't matter if He prophesied an event a thousand years in advance or a single day in advance - BOTH would be fulfilled at their respective times.
 
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parousia70

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I don't think you are listening. There is a big difference between man's shortly and God's.

Great. So when God wants to communicate to man that an event is coming Soon, shortly, and is near, as Soon, Shortly & Near relates to men and not to God, How do you propose God would communicate that to Men in a way they would understand and not confuse it with "Shortly soon and near" as it relates to God?

Surely, If God wanted men to know the event were indeed coming soon shortly and near as it relates to Men, it would be of the UTMOST importantance for men NOT to think it means "soon, shortly and near" as I realtes to God, no?
Important enough for God to want to remove any opportuity for confusion about it, yes?

So again, How do you propose God should communicate it's nearness to Men, when simply saying it's near, soon and coming shortly, as I understand your claim, won't work becuase God has no expectation that Men will or should take those words literally as they relate to Men?
 
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parousia70

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The whole "thousand years as one day" interpretation spin you are putting on this passage is incorrect. God was saying through Peter that it didn't matter if He prophesied an event a thousand years in advance or a single day in advance - BOTH would be fulfilled at their respective times.

Spot on. This notion that God can say "Tomorrow I will do X" then wait 1000 years "to Do X" (Because To God 1000 years is Tomorrow) and Still be true to His word, is perposterous.

Genesis 7:1-4. There, God told Noah:

Enter the ark, you and all your household; for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time [generation]. You shall take with you of ever clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female; also of the birds of the sky, by sevens, male and female, to keep offspring alive on the face of all the earth. For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot our from the face of the land every living thing that I have made.

There are several things in this passage that should be noted. First, this is a prophecy of judgment. Secondly, God declared when the judgment, i.e., the rain, would start. Thirdly, He stated how long the rain would last. Fourthly, God spoke this to Noah, a man trapped in time. God was very specific as to when the rain would begin and to how long it would last. God told Noah that after seven days it would rain for forty days and nights. Now, our first question regarding this passage is not how we should interpret what God said, but how would Noah interpret what God said. Would he understand that God was outside time? That is to say, the references that God made concerning when the judgment would come were to be measured by how time relates to God? Applying the futurist’s interpretation of 2 Peter 3:8-9to this passage, was God telling Noah that after 7,000 years it would begin to rain and once it started raining, it would continue for 40,000 years? Or should the plain, everyday definitions of the terms be understood? We find our answer in verse’s 10 and 12:

And it came about after the seven days, that the water of the flood came upon the earth¼ And the rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights.

Here, just a few short verses later, we have the fulfillment of that prophecy. This shows us that God meant exactly what He said to Noah. Seven days equaled seven days. Forty days and nights equaled forty days and nights.

In Exodus 9:1-5. There, it is written:

Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and speak to him,Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, "Let My people go, that they may serve Me. For if you refuse to let them go, and continue to hold them, behold the hand of the Lord will come with a very severe pestilence on your livestock which are in the field, on the horses, on the donkeys, on the camels, on the herds, and on the flocks. But the Lord will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt, so that nothing will die of all that belongs to the sons of Israel." " And the Lord set a definite time saying, "Tomorrow the Lord will do this thing in the land."

In this passage, God is more specific about when this plague would befall the Egyptians. The text stated that "The Lord set a definite time." It seems to indicate that God put an expiration date, if you please, on His mercy. When was that expiration date? The text states "Tomorrow." Here, again, is a prophecy concerning judgment. It contains a specific time statement: "Tomorrow." It was a prophecy given to a specific person in history. However, even though there are similar elements in this passage to the one before it, there is something different. Pharaoh. Pharaoh is different because he was a man outside the covenant of God. A Gentile. Now our question is, "How would Pharaoh, a non-covenant Gentile, understand the term tomorrow? " Would he understand that it would be fulfilled the following day, or if we apply the futurists interpretation of 2 Peter 3, was Moses actually telling him that God would destroy all the livestock of the Egyptians around a thousand years from when this prophecy was given? Verse 6 gives us our answer. It reads:

So the Lord did this thing on the morrow, and all the livestock of Egypt died; but the livestock of the sons of Israel, not one died.

Once again we see that not only was the "how" part of the prophecy fulfilled (the death of the Egyptian livestock), but the "when" part of it was fulfilled as well (they all died the following day). God declared that He would kill all the livestock of the Egyptians on the following day, and He did just that.

Next lets look at Exodus 11:4-5. There it is written:

And Moses said, "Thus says the Lord, About midnight I am going out into the midst of Egypt, and all the first-born in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first-born of the Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the first-born of the slave girl who is behind the millstones; all the first-born of the cattle as well."

In these verses we have the same elements as the previous examples. 1) This was a prophecy of judgment. 2) It was given to a man trapped in time. 3) It had a specific time statement concerning its fulfillment. In this passage God is even more specific as to when this prophecy would be fulfilled. He said that He would kill all the firstborn of Egypt "about midnight." But lets use 2 Peter 3 again and see if this is the right way to interpret prophetic time. Now if Moses gave this prophecy around 6:00 a.m., was he stating that God would kill the firstborn of Egypt about 750 years later?

Well, lets see. In chapter 12 and verse 29, it is written:
Now it came to about at midnight that the Lord struck all the first-born in the land of Egypt

Once again, God gave a specific time statement when judgment would fall, and He fulfilled it when He said He would.

Lastly, Lets look at some passages relating to the same prophetic event: the Babylonian captivity.

Jeremiah 25:11. And this whole land shall be a desolation and a horror, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
Jeremiah 29:10. For thus says the Lord, "When seventy years have been completed for Babylon, I will visit you and fulfill My good word to you, to bring you back to this place."
2 Chronicles 36:20-21. And those who escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon, and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.

Once again we have the same elements in these passages as we had in the preceding ones. 1) This was a prophecy of judgment. 2) It was given to men trapped in time. 3) It had a specific time statement concerning its fulfillment. God spoke through Jeremiah to the nation of Israel that they would be in bondage for seventy years. Now if the futurists interpretation of 2 Peter 3:8-9 is applied to these passages, then the nation of Israel would be in bondage approximately 25,550,000 years! But is this an accurate interpretation? Daniel didn't think so. For in Daniel 9:1-2, it is written:

In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasureus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

The King James Version states that Daniel "understood the number of years." What interpretive hermeneutic did Daniel use to understand the number of years? the futurists interpretation of 2 Peter 3:8-9, or the plain meaning of the phrase "seventy years?" Obviously, the plain, everyday meaning of the phrase. This alone should answer any question and settle any debate as to how to properly interpret the time statements of Biblical prophecy. However, as if this alone wasn't enough, God gave us another proof: history. In 2 Chronicles 36:20-21, God said that the nation of Israel would be in bondage "until the reign of the kingdom of Persian." History teaches us that Persia came into power in 536 BC at the over throw of the Babylonian Empire. History also teaches us that Israel was in bondage to Babylon from 606 BC until their over throw by Persia in 536 BC. That equates to exactly seventy years.

To recap, we have gone from "seventy years," to "forty days and nights," to "seven days," to "tomorrow," to "midnight," and in each case, God fulfilled His word exactly WHEN He said He would.
 
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Great. So when God wants to communicate to man that an event is coming Soon, shortly, and is near, as Soon, Shortly & Near relates to men and not to God, How do you propose God would communicate that to Men in a way they would understand and not confuse it with "Shortly soon and near" as it relates to God?

Surely, If God wanted men to know the event were indeed coming soon shortly and near as it relates to Men, it would be of the UTMOST importantance for men NOT to think it means "soon, shortly and near" as I realtes to God, no?
Important enough for God to want to remove any opportuity for confusion about it, yes?

So again, How do you propose God should communicate it's nearness to Men, when simply saying it's near, soon and coming shortly, as I understand your claim, won't work becuase God has no expectation that Men will or should take those words literally as they relate to Men?

I do not buy into that. It is noteworthy that it is only Preterists who cannot grasp the meaning of the Lord's words here and have to force a bias meaning on them in order to sustain their opinion. That is telling! The same happens when it comes to the dating of Revelation. The ancient adage is true: “necessity is the mother of invention."

The rest of us (Historicists, Idealists and Futurists), have no difficulty grasping the import and meaning.
 
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