Gun Control

Paradox.79 said:

First of Criminals do not do mass shootings. Criminals are in business of making money killing children is bad business. It is the mentally unstable people who more often than not get guns legally. The school shooter in Florida was flagged as mentally unstable as a minor, the good state of Florida did not want to waist money on a poor person. The mentally unstable person went and legally bought a gun and killed school children. Here look as screenshot it pretty much sums up the problem

Click to expand...

I would point out that a good proportion of the mass shooting statistics--if not most of them--are, in fact, criminals doing them, usually gang shootings.

classical5 said:

No, most shooting deaths are not accidental. From CDC WISQARS database, there were 498 accidental firearm deaths in 2019 (most recent data). That’s a statistical anomaly in a nation of over 300 million people with over 40% owning a gun.

Americans do quite well without govt mandatory training and licensing.

Mandatory training has been done before for the same reasons you list. They were called safety permits or firearm purchase permits. They were simply fig leafs for a de facto gun ban.

The permits were so hard and expansive and burdensome that most people would not or could not get them.

That was the reason for Heller 2.

Click to expand...

Few accidental shootings occur, negligent shooting is a better word, and there are quit a few every year.

Silverback said:

Few accidental shootings occur, negligent shooting is a better word, and there are quit a few every year.

Click to expand...

There were 498 *unintentional* shooting deaths in 2019. Accidental, negligent, mechanical failure, “oops”, and whatever other category you want to come up with are included.

They are not common at all.

classical5 said:

There were 498 *unintentional* shooting deaths in 2019. Accidental, negligent, mechanical failure, “oops”, and whatever other category you want to come up with are included.

They are not common at all.

Click to expand...

More than one per day, seems common to me. People who want to own firearms need training, a background check, and safe storage. There also needs to be restrictions on firearms and ammunition available to the general population.

That's reasonable.

Paradox.79 said:

I am not talking about gangs and inner city shootings. I am talking about mentally unstable people being able to easily purchase a gun. Honestly the gun lobby disgust me. Newtown shooting, elementary school shooting, i got friends who live there. The gun lobby was so scared that someone would try and take there guns they created conspiracy theories saying it was a fake shooting. Which by the way is impossible. You would have to have all the teachers students, parents cops emts doctors nurses hundreds of people in on it and all of them keep it quiet. It was the most disgusting thing I have ever seen. I could care less about the statistics for gang bangers killing each other. I believe every mass shooting was done by people who were unstable. We can keep guns out the hands of children by parents taking responsibility for there little brats, and we can keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable. Other countries have guns and gun controls....IT DOES WORK...IT IS A FACT!!!! Mandatory gun operation's and safety training, and mental background checks should not offend you guys.

Click to expand...

I heard the "it didn't happen" statements as well, I don't know if it started with a gun rights group or not, but they were real.

Serious gun control measures could have some impact on numbers. I have changed my position on background checks, so that, if you pass, then firearm safety training, and safe storage. Additionally, single shot, and double barrel firearms only.

The best thing we could do is ban, and buy back every handgun. 90% of firearm fatalities are committed with handguns.

As far as suicides go, not to much anyone can do really...except pray.

No, that’s totally unreas

Silverback said:

More than one per day, seems common to me. People who want to own firearms need training, a background check, and safe storage. There also needs to be restrictions on firearms and ammunition available to the general population.

That's reasonable.

Click to expand...

You gun banners always ignore science, data, and history to come up with some low brow scheme to steal guns.

If more than one a day is your threshold than you must want to get rid of everything from cleaning buckets to pools to airliners to cars to pharmacies to surgeons.

In a nation of 330 million people and over 100 million gun owners 498 is a statistical anomaly.

You are not interested in public safety, you want to disarm the nation so you can enslave people.

Silverback said:

I heard the "it didn't happen" statements as well, I don't know if it started with a gun rights group or not, but they were real.

Serious gun control measures could have some impact on numbers. I have changed my position on background checks, so that, if you pass, then firearm safety training, and safe storage. Additionally, single shot, and double barrel firearms only.

The best thing we could do is ban, and buy back every handgun. 90% of firearm fatalities are committed with handguns.

As far as suicides go, not to much anyone can do really...except pray.

Click to expand...

What you describe is the Australia gun control implemented in 1996 after Port Arthur. It did not work. See the crime data base at the AUS Bureau of Statistics Crime Reports.

Their gun ban created a massive crime bubble that peaked in 2001, murder up 16% from the preban rate, assault up 44%, sexual assault up 30%. Before the ban all rates were decreasing. It want until 2009 that some crimes were back to their preban levels.

over the same time the USA relaxed gun control, gun ownership increased, and violent crime including homicide dropped more than 50%.

Get the facts. Learn the science.

Silverback said:

I heard the "it didn't happen" statements as well, I don't know if it started with a gun rights group or not, but they were real.

Serious gun control measures could have some impact on numbers. I have changed my position on background checks, so that, if you pass, then firearm safety training, and safe storage. Additionally, single shot, and double barrel firearms only.

The best thing we could do is ban, and buy back every handgun. 90% of firearm fatalities are committed with handguns.

Click to expand...

Yeah, see, every time you speak, you add restrictions. A while back, you listed requirements that were reasonable. Now you've gone to the point that you've made self-defense impracticable.

And that appears to be typical of people who start out saying, "We only want reasonable gun controls."

classical5 said:

No, that’s totally unreas


You gun banners always ignore science, data, and history to come up with some low brow scheme to steal guns.

If more than one a day is your threshold than you must want to get rid of everything from cleaning buckets to pools to airliners to cars to pharmacies to surgeons.

In a nation of 330 million people and over 100 million gun owners 498 is a statistical anomaly.

You are not interested in public safety, you want to disarm the nation so you can enslave people.

Click to expand...

About the only thing I would disagree with is the last part.

While I agree the push to remove guns from the civilians is about control... I doubt that most people here on CF truly wish to enslave... they simply believe the words of those that push that agenda.

If we are constantly shooting the messangers.... who is paying attention to the ones writing the letters?

I never particularly cared for guns, but Pandora's bix has already been opened.

IF you severely limit or ban guns entirely, the ONLY people you limit access to that means of defense are those that FOLLOW LAWS.... not the criminals that ignore them.

IF they follow laws, they will also follow the one about NOT MURDERING people. More laws mean that many more hoops for a law abiding citizen to jump through, while the criminal will ignore that one too, knowing they are armed and the average civilian is vulnerable.

Gun laws don't work, because GUNS are not the problem. Law abiding civilians are not the problem. Criminals... are.

How do you fight criminals? Empower their prey and force them to wonder.... who can fight back. Not by removing a citizens right to defend themself.

As far as those that are unwell, shouldnt that be on the shoulders of the frienfs and family if tge person in question owning a gun?

After all, you have courts step in to determine with family and friends if someone us mentally fit to spend money... why not extend the same to gun ownership while leaving the gun laws themselves for the average person alone.

The extremes of few should NOT dictate the lives if the many. Society should learn to weed out tge few before they become the problem by self governing and getting them the help they need.

Silverback said:

More than one per day, seems common to me. People who want to own firearms need training, a background check, and safe storage. There also needs to be restrictions on firearms and ammunition available to the general population.

That's reasonable.

Click to expand...

I just saw this fact: on average in the USA 450 people get struck by lightning per year.

You as likely to be struck by lightning as being accidentally killed By a firearm.

classical5 said:

I just saw this fact: on average in the USA 450 people get struck by lightning per year.

You as likely to be struck by lightning as being accidentally killed By a firearm.

Click to expand...

I'm sure the person killed, and their family members probably have a different viewpoint... Just say'n

Silverback said:

I'm sure the person killed, and their family members probably have a different viewpoint... Just say'n

Click to expand...

After the Florida Douglas HS shooting incident ( the one where the cop assigned to the school hid outside while kids were being killed), there was the usual bleating for gun control - but a good number of Douglas HS parents and students opposed gun control and protested in support of gun rights.

So once again you are wrong.

Paradox.79 said:

NO ONE SAID BAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gun Control is not gun banning. Only Licensed Gun Sellers, Mandatory mental and criminal background, Mandatory operational and safety training...these are not unreasonable request. Is it a coincidence that more and more of our children are leaning liberal. It might have something to do with the fact that the gun lobby seems to be more concerned about guns that there safety. I have shotgun and a 38, I was trained on gun operations and safety by my grandfather. As for the second amendment, it was referring to a militia, as for you god given right to own a gun...I hate to break it to you...Christ would have been ban the guns he was a pacifist

Click to expand...

The Second Amendment is not about the Militia, or any other military service.

Please read the following SCOTUS opinions:

HELLER vs DC 2008 and McDONALD vs CHICAGO 2010.

HELLER, affirms an individual right to keep and bear arms without association with any militia, or military service.

McDONALD, reaffirms HELLER, and incorporates the 2nd Amendment to the states as a fundamental right of the people.

However, it is stated in HELLER that the 2nd Amendment is not unlimited, and that like all other rights of the people, it may have reasonable restrictions.

In a series of challenges to gun control measures, most of which were upheld, it was repeatedly the opinion of lower courts that HELLER only applied to the Federal Government, therefore to Federal Property only.

The first appeal accepted by the SCOTUS was McDONALD, and as I stated it Incorporated the 2nd Amendment to the states.

The 2nd Amendment was the last of the amendments in the bill of rights to be incorporated.

Reasonable restrictions is the key phrase in both these rulings. I caught some verbal abuse day before last, because my view of reasonable differs from there's...no lost sleep.

Paradox.79 said:

NO ONE SAID BAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gun Control is not gun banning. Only Licensed Gun Sellers, Mandatory mental and criminal background, Mandatory operational and safety training...these are not unreasonable request.

Click to expand...

Yes, that was said.

Silverback said:

The best thing we could do is ban, and buy back every handgun. 90% of firearm fatalities are committed with handguns.

Click to expand...

Paradox.79 said:

NO ONE SAID BAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gun Control is not gun banning. Only Licensed Gun Sellers, Mandatory mental and criminal background, Mandatory operational and safety training...these are not unreasonable request. Is it a coincidence that more and more of our children are leaning liberal. It might have something to do with the fact that the gun lobby seems to be more concerned about guns that there safety. I have shotgun and a 38, I was trained on gun operations and safety by my grandfather. As for the second amendment, it was referring to a militia, as for you god given right to own a gun...I hate to break it to you...Christ would have been ban the guns he was a pacifist

Click to expand...

If Christ had intended to do that, He would have forbidden His disciples from carrying weapons...which He did not. There is even less indication that He would have commanded them to rail against the Roman Empire to ban weapons...which He obviously didn't.

Paradox.79 said:

I am not talking about gangs and inner city shootings. I am talking about mentally unstable people being able to easily purchase a gun. Honestly the gun lobby disgust me. Newtown shooting, elementary school shooting, i got friends who live there. The gun lobby was so scared that someone would try and take there guns they created conspiracy theories saying it was a fake shooting. Which by the way is impossible. You would have to have all the teachers students, parents cops emts doctors nurses hundreds of people in on it and all of them keep it quiet. It was the most disgusting thing I have ever seen. I could care less about the statistics for gang bangers killing each other. I believe every mass shooting was done by people who were unstable. We can keep guns out the hands of children by parents taking responsibility for there little brats, and we can keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable. Other countries have guns and gun controls....IT DOES WORK...IT IS A FACT!!!! Mandatory gun operation's and safety training, and mental background checks should not offend you guys.

Click to expand...

You may not be talking about inner city shootings and you may not care about them, but you should be talking about them and you should care about them, for they are the majority of mass shootings. The cases of lone gunmen shooting up suburban schools and movie theaters are fairly rare and likely difficult to curb without draconian measures. The more common manifestation of a mass shooting is some sort of urban event that may be related to gang activity but not necessarily relegated to only gang members.

This is why some folks charge that the focus on assault rifles used in suburban school shootings is an example of white privilege. It's mainly handguns used in these urban shootings, but because they're out-of-sight-out-of-mind of the white anti-gun advocates, the advocates focus on the bigger, scarier assault rifles.

Paradox.79 said:

This is and edited episode clip from Designated Survivor addressing common sense gun control. The story has happened more than once. Unlicensed gun sellers do not have to do a background check, a criminal or nut job buys a gun and kills someone. I think this video address the issue.

Click to expand...

Paradox.79 said:

This is and edited episode clip from Designated Survivor addressing common sense gun control. The story has happened more than once. Unlicensed gun sellers do not have to do a background check, a criminal or nut job buys a gun and kills someone. I think this video address the issue.

Click to expand...

People who are evil will do evil, that includes murder. A firearm by itself is an inanimate object that can do nothing on its own. However, put in the hands of an evil man or woman, the evil man or woman becomes the cause, not the firearm. If the "monster" did not have a handgun but a knife, and murdered the daughter with a knife, would there be an outpouring of calls for knife control? Probably not, even though knife attacks are almost as high as firearms attacks, and deaths by knives or other cutting blades reaches almost 2,000 per year in the US alone.

Paradox.79 said:

I am not talking about gangs and inner city shootings. I am talking about mentally unstable people being able to easily purchase a gun. Honestly the gun lobby disgust me. Newtown shooting, elementary school shooting, i got friends who live there. The gun lobby was so scared that someone would try and take there guns they created conspiracy theories saying it was a fake shooting. Which by the way is impossible. You would have to have all the teachers students, parents cops emts doctors nurses hundreds of people in on it and all of them keep it quiet. It was the most disgusting thing I have ever seen. I could care less about the statistics for gang bangers killing each other. I believe every mass shooting was done by people who were unstable. We can keep guns out the hands of children by parents taking responsibility for there little brats, and we can keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable. Other countries have guns and gun controls....IT DOES WORK...IT IS A FACT!!!! Mandatory gun operation's and safety training, and mental background checks should not offend you guys.

Click to expand...

Other countries have bans on firearms, I think is what you mean.