Should you devalue all of a man's ministry because of a failure in one area?

hopeforhappiness

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Even a serious failure.

Of course it happens that way, but should it? Even our leaders and prophets are 'sinners saved by grace'

I'm thinking of Ravi Zacharias. And there are others.

People whose flesh gets in the way of their ministry. (There is a discernment minister who occasionally admits his emotions get the better of him when calling out heretics and apostates)
 

Gregory Thompson

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Even a serious failure.

Of course it happens that way, but should it? Even our leaders and prophets are 'sinners saved by grace'

I'm thinking of Ravi Zacharias. And there are others.

People whose flesh gets in the way of their ministry. (There is a discernment minister who occasionally admits his emotions get the better of him when calling out heretics and apostates)
Saving face should not take priority over abuse caused by a ministry.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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But should we be suspicious of his Christian insights now he has been found wanting in another area?
I am sure we do this for many people and even overlook personal failings for preachers we like.
People don't though, so why a celebrity should get a free pass is kind of the question.

That people only started to speak up after his death may give hints as to why some pastors appear to get away with it for now.
 
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hopeforhappiness

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It has been argued that Tozer didn't cherish his wife, who only felt love when she remarried.
Should we now stop reading his books?
Tozer's Contradiction and His Approach to Piety
David Pawson admits to often having a 'hyper-critical spirit'. Should we unappreciate his pastoral stuff?
 
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KitKat1230

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The thing is, though, sexual abuse is more than just "a failure in one area." What he did was not just a one-time slip-up. This was predatory and immoral behavior, and covering up of it, that persisted for decades until his death. He sued and silenced Lori Anne Thompson, one of the women he sexually abused, until his death in order to keep his abuses secret. He co-owned a massage parlor at which he asked employees for sexual services and sexually abused massage therapists. He engaged in extramarital affairs via text messages and emails and had over 200 photos of women on his phone.

Sexual abuse is not just a failure. Sexual acts in which consent is absent (which also include pedophilia, ephebophilia, inappropriate behavior with animals, most instances of incest) are forms of sexual assault/abuse. There are consensual sexual activities that would be considered sinful and harmful as well such as adultery, fornication, inappropriate contentography, etc. But what makes sexual assault/abuse much worse is the coupling of sexual immorality and the forcible violation of another person's body against their consent. An act that God intended to be an act of love becomes an act of hate, an act of power, an act of control.

Imagine you have a mother, sister, female cousin, aunt, grandma, niece, wife (if you're a man), daughter, granddaughter, female friend, etc. and she was abused by a well-known, reputable theologian/pastor and he never publicly apologized for it, covered it up, never admitted to it, and tried to silence her, you, and your and her loved ones when she, they, or you would try to speak up. Would you want him to still have a platform and the respect and adoration of most/all of the Christian world? I would not.
 
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lismore

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I'm thinking of Ravi Zacharias. And there are others.

Interesting point! Christian leaders can stumble. However on the specific point about Mr Zacharias, I believe there are several serious question marks over him. One is the sexual abuse, another is his attitude towards Mormonism. God Bless :)
 
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RDKirk

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Why stop at a single man? What about an entire nation of people claiming to be Christians, yet practicing millions of heinous acts against human beings, openly and often in the very name of Jesus? People claiming to be Christians could torture a human being, strangle him, set his body aflame while he was still alive, socialize jovially under his charred corpse, clip off toes and fingers as sovenirs....
...and then go to church the next day and sing "How Great Thou Art." And there was no repudiation of that act among the, no general conviction of sin over thousands of people committing such acts over hundreds of years.

Why should black people not devalue Christianity completely?

Compare that with Ravi Zacharias. If we should discard his ministry, should we not discard Christianity?
 
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lismore

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If we should discard his ministry, should we not discard Christianity?

Mr Zacharias regularly gave sermons at Mormon Tabernacles (You can find these on youtube). Some people questioned his attitude towards Mormonism asking if he was within Christianity in the first place.
 
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hopeforhappiness

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I could reexamine all the leaders that I worked with over the 40 years of my Christian life. Maybe there was no physical abuse (but who knows privately), but there was certainly all the weaknesses of those with power and even more (spiritual bullying, manipulation). But of course this was all low-grade stuff.
I could and should have stood up to them a bit more, but I took seriously the biblical injunctions to obey and respect our leaders and to "consider others better than ourselves". Of course I forgive them, at the same time as appreciating the time and effort and passion they had. But they certainly diminished me as a person.
 
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RDKirk

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Mr Zacharias regularly gave sermons at Mormon Tabernacles (You can find these on youtube). Some people questioned his attitude towards Mormonism asking if he was within Christianity in the first place.

That depends on the text of his sermons. Paul preached in synagogues.
 
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lismore

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That depends on the text of his sermons. Paul preached in synagogues.

Paul preached the gospel in many places, on Mars Hill, the lecture hall of Tyrannus, on streets, on ships, on the beach, wherever people would listen. What Ravi Zacharias was preaching at the Mormon Tabernacle in the video I watched was not the gospel. He was telling them what they wanted to hear.

As far as I know the scandal revolves around three issues. RZ lying over academic credentials, the rape/sexual assaults and the cover-up by the organisation and the evangelical elite. The RZ organisation had been apparently paying off one victim for silence for years, using a huge whack of ministry funds for this.

But there seems to be a culture within modern Christianity, 'celebrity' Christians should not be tested, examined or held to any form of standard. If they are famous, wealthy, or unfluential enough then normal rules do not seem to apply.

God Bless :)
 
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BNR32FAN

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Even a serious failure.

Of course it happens that way, but should it? Even our leaders and prophets are 'sinners saved by grace'

I'm thinking of Ravi Zacharias. And there are others.

People whose flesh gets in the way of their ministry. (There is a discernment minister who occasionally admits his emotions get the better of him when calling out heretics and apostates)

I think it all depends on what failure we’re talking about. I highly question Steven Andrews motives based on his statements made towards homosexuals. It’s one thing to rebuke sin but it’s entirely another to openly state that we should not pray for their repentance or that we should pray that they die and burn in the lake of fire. I’m not familiar with Ravi Zacharias.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Why stop at a single man? What about an entire nation of people claiming to be Christians, yet practicing millions of heinous acts against human beings, openly and often in the very name of Jesus? People claiming to be Christians could torture a human being, strangle him, set his body aflame while he was still alive, socialize jovially under his charred corpse, clip off toes and fingers as sovenirs....
...and then go to church the next day and sing "How Great Thou Art." And there was no repudiation of that act among the, no general conviction of sin over thousands of people committing such acts over hundreds of years.

Why should black people not devalue Christianity completely?

Compare that with Ravi Zacharias. If we should discard his ministry, should we not discard Christianity?

Thats stereotyping, we should judge each individual by their actions not groups of people because there are often people innocent of those acts within each group.
 
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RDKirk

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Thats stereotyping, we should judge each individual by their actions not groups of people because there are often people innocent of those acts within each group.

Except that slavery and lynching--as well as the sympathy for slavery and lynchings--were the acts of groups, of congregations, of towns, of cities, of entire states. People had picnics under the charred bodies of lynch victims and went to church the next day with no conviction or recriminations.

In cases like that, yes, one can indeed just entire groups. Take this group, for instance. Nobody in this photograph is innocent...innocent people were at home.

2EVSGJD23QZZPIM2EA666MJNV4.jpg (982×648) (washingtonpost.com)
 
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BNR32FAN

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Except that slavery and lynching--as well as the sympathy for slavery and lynchings--were the acts of groups, of congregations, of towns, of cities, of entire states. People had picnics under the charred bodies of lynch victims and went to church the next day with no conviction or recriminations.

In cases like that, yes, one can indeed just entire groups. Take this group, for instance. Nobody in this photograph is innocent...innocent people were at home.

2EVSGJD23QZZPIM2EA666MJNV4.jpg (982×648) (washingtonpost.com)

Ever heard of the Underground Railroad? Yeah these people lived in those towns as well.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Why should black people not devalue Christianity completely?

I can understand devaluing the supposed Christian faith of the men and women who did such heinous, heartless things. This is, in some form, whether the issue is racist cruelty and murder, sexual abuse, cover-ups, lying to and manipulating people with false end-times prophecies, or fraud, something every Christian is going to have to sit down and deal with.

Christians can be evil. They can be anti-Christ. They can be racist, cruel, abusive, exploitative, and at best, complicated and misguided. At best. What do we do with that? What do we do with collective or individual trauma or sorrow, or anger?

So… for me, the answer has been to continue following the Middle Eastern man who loved me, and died for me. To unpack why I resent and get angry at certain kinds of people, and pray for them. I can’t change anyone. But I can follow Christ, and keep working on myself.
 
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lismore

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People don't though, so why a celebrity should get a free pass is kind of the question.

That people only started to speak up after his death may give hints as to why some pastors appear to get away with it for now.

Interesting post! There are deeper issues that need to be addressed than one man's celebrity and his abuse, rather the culture that allows abuse to go unchecked because it has been done by a celebrity. Is this really what Jesus would want?
God Bless :)
 
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anna ~ grace

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Interesting post! There are deeper issues that need to be addressed than one man's celebrity and his abuse, rather the culture that allows abuse to go unchecked because it has been done by a celebrity. Is this really what Jesus would want?
God Bless :)

Yeah… I think one of the struggles that the Christian world has, is that a man’s holiness is often thought to be reflected in how well he speaks or writes. If he speaks or writes well, he must be very holy. If he expresses theology in an articulate and easy to understand or beautiful manner, he must be very close to God. This is not always true.

A man’s holiness is not just in how beautifully he talks about God, but how he treats people, too. From the article on A. W. Tozer;

During the 1930s Tozer read voraciously, and he also developed a magnificent obsession to be in Christ’s presence- just to worship Him and to be with Him.” Yet he was a man who was emotionally and spiritually distant from his own wife. “By early 1928 the Tozers had a routine. Aiden found his fulfillment in reading, preparing sermons, preaching, and weaving travel into his demanding and exciting schedule, while Ada learned to cope. She dutifully washed, ironed, cooked, and cared for the little ones, and developed the art of shoving her pain deep down inside. Most of the time she pretended there was no hurt, but when it erupted, she usually blamed herself for not being godly enough to conquer her longing for intimacy from an emotionally aloof husband.”

These strange inconsistencies abound. Tozer saw his wife’s gifts for hospitality and encouraged her in them; yet he disliked having visitors in his own home. He preached about the necessity of Christian fellowship within the family of Christ; yet he refused to allow his family or his wife’s family to visit their home. For every laudable area of his life there seemed to exist an equal and opposite error. This study in opposites leaves for a fascinating picture of a man who was used so greatly by God, even while his life had such obvious sin.

If we equate an outward and public demeanor with holiness, we are making a terrible mistake. This is why I think that it is a much better idea to see justification and sanctification as the same thing, or dependent on each other. Sanctification justifies us; our works, our lives, our words in private, all matter. It is not enough to speak or write well or have much faith; we must strive to be compassionate, pure, humble, careful, chaste, generous, kind, and wise in every part of our lives. Whether we are seen, or not. That is a struggle.
 
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